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Subrick
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:56 pm 
 

I have a theory on why music is significantly less respected by the general population than movies. The reason is that music requires significantly more thought than movies. When you watch a movie, by and large the majority of the action is portrayed by the visuals you see on the screen, and requires thought only so deep as to be kinda superficial beyond the scope of the pictures. Music is, by nature, a more abstract art form, where action is derived more by the elements surrounding the music than the actual music performances themselves. You have to infer the meaning of lyrics, analyze the necessary or unnecessary elements of a musical piece, it's much deeper overall than movies that have most of the meaning of a story shown to you visually. It's the same reason why poems are even less respected than music in the modern day.

Tl;Dr: Music requires a person to think more deeply than movies, which are a visual medium primarily and music is strictly auditory, and thus are given significantly less respect in the modern day.
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KrigareTjovane
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Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:06 am
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:59 pm 
 

Kind of? Maybe? Not really? Is music actually less respected than movies these days?

Music is seen as a much more casual art form I think. It's everywhere; television, commercials, movies, it's around every corner and the average person is exposed to it more than they realize. Everyone is so conditioned to it being in the background that I think a lot of people accept it as a background element rather than being worth the forefront of their attention. It functions very well as a background activity, too; listen while you're cleaning the house, driving down the road, playing video games, etc. It can be experienced alongside other things, whereas a film is usually holds the exclusive focus of the consumer.

Both are designed to be focused on singularly, but there is exponentially more music out there than there are movies, and in that way I think people find it disposable. Sick of that new hit song? Just wait a week and it'll be a distant memory. I think because there is such a massive surplus of music, there's less pressure in consuming it than film. Listening to a 4 minute song or a 35 minute album is a small time investment compared to watching a 2 hour movie. Putting on a new album has much lower stakes than popping on a new film, especially in the modern age of one click consumerism.

As to whether music is more abstract than film, I guess that's debatable. Depends on a case by case basis, ya know? I'm sure nobody'd make the mistake of saying a Justin Bieber or Ariana Grande album is as complex and thought provoking as a David Lynch or Yorgos Lanthimos film. And at the same time nobody'll jizz their neurons watching a Michael Bay movie over listening to a Tchaikovsky concerto (... probably). It's unfair to even compare any of these... so... uh... why am I, again? lol. Guess I lost my train of thought.

Both music and film have their kiddie pools and their deep ends, and both are filled to the brim with people who both appreciate each media as deep, intriguing art, as well as people who just want to see explosions or hear a catchy melody.

I guess in typing all this out, it does seem to me like movies are held in higher regard than music, so I think I agree with you. I'm just not sure I agree with how you reached the same conclusion I did.

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yentass
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Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:28 am
Posts: 906
Location: Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:01 pm 
 

KrigareTjovane wrote:
I guess in typing all this out, it does seem to me like movies are held in higher regard than music, so I think I agree with you. I'm just not sure I agree with how you reached the same conclusion I did.

I'd argue that it's not an issue of high or low regard at all, both media simply fulfill slightly different functions in our lives. Comparing the two is not unlike comparing apples and oranges, I think.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:17 pm 
 

Depends on the music and the film, honestly.

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Hexenmacht46290
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Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:04 pm 
 

There’s a lot of variety, and variety in quality, in both. I think the difference, is that music can be listened to, in the “background.” I know some people who do this with movies, but there are psychological reasons for that, they dissociate pretty heavily.

Some people just listened to singles, or skipped songs on the album, even before the internet and streaming. Appreciating music is more abstract, I’d agree. But most music is relatively accessible, if you like something kind of similar. I think that there are more levels of appreciating music, however.

A lot of people work in stores, or offices, and just like whatever the manager plays on the radio. The inverse of this, is the “today’s music sucks” type, who refuses to check out new bands, playing styles they like, and, like the radio fans, is closed minded, just in a different way.

Justin Bieber was popular, since the late 2000s. It took me until 2018, to actually encounter someone professing to like his music. There was a conversation, while working, involving a bunch of people. Someone said something, I think, about some mainstream rapper doing some collaboration with him, which this person didn’t like. I asked, why is it, that Justin Bieber is rich, beyond the dreams of avarice(he could quit tomorrow, never work again, never be homeless, and live comfortably), but I’d never met anyone who didn’t hate his music? Someone, about the same age as me, claimed to have liked his music, as a teenager. This person did the “name three songs” treatment, to themself, by claiming to like “that one song,” and forgetting the name! There is just no way, that anyone who actually knows how to read, or thinks critically, or has their own taste, and opinions, about music, and bothers to seek it out themselves, would actually like Imagine Dragons. They are that shit. But still, they make money off of it, because there are enough people, who just never bothered to think about music(other than being mad, that their kids are listening to satanic/gangster/profane sexual stuff). Think of the most boring people you know, they are disproportionately represented, in the population.
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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:12 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Tl;Dr: Music requires a person to think more deeply than movies, which are a visual medium primarily and music is strictly auditory, and thus are given significantly less respect in the modern day.

Actually, I think people would think more deeply with movies than with music. There's a lot more that goes on with movies than in music, and movies are better at conveying a message with its visuals.
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Subrick
Metal Strongman

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:56 pm 
 

That’s what I mean, though. The visual element of movies allows people to more easily fill in the blanks of what a movie’s messaging and themes might be. Music doesn’t have that, and relies greatly on what the listener infers the music to mean.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:59 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
I have a theory on why music is significantly less respected by the general population than movies.


Not the movies I like...

But yeah seriously though - I think it depends on the music or movie in question. Plenty of pop music, for whatever value it has, is easily listenable with big beats, hooks, etc. Plenty of movies require a lot of interpretation and you can get lost in layers of script or directorial decisions that keep you coming back. I don't know if I'd say music is "less respected" either - what metric or reference are you using to get that conclusion?
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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 11:53 pm 
 

This maybe only partially relates to this thread, though maybe it does more than I think, but someone mentioned the idea that people find music to be more "disposable" than movies, and I actually feel the opposite.

One question I'd ask others, especially others here who like to listen to albums over and over again to fully appreciate them is: how often do you like to do that with movies, where you will actually watch one movie over and over again, maybe because you just like it a lot, but even more so because you want to really fully "digest" the aspects which you might have missed out on on the first watch?

For me, I must admit I do this pretty rarely.

Like yes, I have favorite movies that I've watched over and over and can always enjoy again like: Dazed and Confused, Clerks, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, The Big Lebowski, Total Recall, Terminator 2, Suspiria, Deep Red, Phenomenon, Inferno (lots of Argento movies), The Shining, the early Star Wars movies before Lucas ruined them, etc. but most of the time i rewatch these movies it's not because I'm trying to more fully digest any aspects I might not have caught before, but just more mindlessly.

But with music I will more or less make myself re-listen to certain albums with some frequency because I know that I missed parts and that a lot of albums get better with time and have so many elements I might miss out on.

Perhaps the only sorts of movies (or shows) I really like to rewatch to more fully digest are surrealistc/abstract type stuff like David Lynch stuff and Twin Peaks where it's hard to understand it all if I only watch it once, but I still can't tell you how many cool movies that I've seen where I didn't fully understand the ending and swore to myself I'd rewatch it to figure it out and then never did lol.

With movies I watch SOOO many enjoyable movies so frequently on amazon prime or Netflix and then even if I really liked something i still may never watch it again.

When it's over it's just like "well, that was pretty cool", and then I'm on to the next one, and soon I've almost entirely forgotten about it.

I don't usually do that with music, and even with all the music I listen to I still tend to try to revisist as much as possible over the years, but with movies it's just much more casual for me and I don't really feel the need.

So for me, movies are generally just entertainment, whereas music is serious and I want to fully digest and appreciate everything with as many listens as possible.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 4:19 am 
 

I really think this is one of those case-by-case analysis situations. Some movies are straight garbage as is some music, some are horribly pretentious, pseudo-intellectual crap and yet others require time to fully appreciate. I tend to not want to analyze the motivations of the artist and go by my own interpretation/feeling regarding both music and movies. Can't exactly say which is less respected than the other but there obviously is more disposable, aimless music than movies.
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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1883
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:18 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
I have a theory on why music is significantly less respected by the general population than movies. The reason is that music requires significantly more thought than movies. When you watch a movie, by and large the majority of the action is portrayed by the visuals you see on the screen, and requires thought only so deep as to be kinda superficial beyond the scope of the pictures. Music is, by nature, a more abstract art form, where action is derived more by the elements surrounding the music than the actual music performances themselves. You have to infer the meaning of lyrics, analyze the necessary or unnecessary elements of a musical piece, it's much deeper overall than movies that have most of the meaning of a story shown to you visually. It's the same reason why poems are even less respected than music in the modern day.

Tl;Dr: Music requires a person to think more deeply than movies, which are a visual medium primarily and music is strictly auditory, and thus are given significantly less respect in the modern day.



I haven't read through the whole thread so these points might have come up previously but I don't agree with your sentiments at all. I don't think there is anything inherently deep about music as compared to films. Both categories of culture are broad, very broad, and it's all about where you look. The most shallow stuff in both genres of culture might be commercials. While both finds their deepest depths in the stuff that really touches peoples emotions or where there handicraft is so complex it really challenges the listened or watcher.

If one only goes by what Hollywood produces for record breaking business, of course it won't be deep. But the same goes for the music that is made to trend for a summer month or two but isn't built to last decades. But both in music and in film there are great works of art being produced. Stuff which is deep and well though through or with a message that isn't easy to get to but that is very rewarding to the one's who do.

I also never see people valuing films over music at all. I've never seen it as a competition and I've never seen people treat it as such. It's not like the ongoing debate of films vs theater for example. Or the amount that art (as in painting usually) would get the cold hand from many people since they can't see the deep value in it. Or in my time when poetry was seen as something stupid and nerdy (this has changed somewhat with hip-hop dominating youth culture for a few years now).
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:19 am 
 

The different forms of media and art aren't necessarily better than each other, just better for certain things. Reading allows for the integration of one's imagination into the experience in a way that others don't. Film may in ways have the potential to be the most surface level, because sometimes there is little to the experience beyond the dots on the screen, but yet it also in ways has more potential than other forms. It engages more of the senses, and thus has room to pack in more information and layers to unravel in its storytelling, and often has a synthesized presentation of bits of work on display from thousands of different creative people, whereas an album is often the production of the output of just a a small number of individuals. Static visual art like painting and drawing have increasingly raptured me at times in recent years. It is such a fascinating medium in that in one sense you can "consume" the art in a fraction of a second with a glance, and yet you can also spend a lifetime studying the technique and imagery and have your understanding of the image and craftsmanship behind it evolve over time.

KrigareTjovane wrote:
It can be experienced alongside other things, whereas a film is usually holds the exclusive focus of the consumer.


That may be more often true if you're talking about watching a film in a theater, but at home, all bets are off. Countless times I've heard people talking about having movies on in the background while doing other things nearby, or that they or others in the room were only halfway paying attention to a film because they were scrolling through their phone while watching.

I think I might have used to agree that music seems to garner less respect from the average person than it used to, but I'm not sure what to base that on, it's so anecdotal and filtered by your own experience. It seems that screentime in general has become a more predominant activity, but that affects most if not all of the arts. It reminds me of this meme.

Spoiler: show
Image


Really this seems like it could be a spinoff of the "is heavy metal dying" thread. The modern world has segmented everyone into their own personally curated existence, so there's much less of a universal experience than there used to be, where everyone heard the same songs on the radio and watched the same videos on MTV. It's quite possible to go through life now and be completely oblivious to what the current musical zeitgeist is.

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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:42 am 
 

Subrick wrote:
I have a theory on why music is significantly less respected by the general population than movies. The reason is that music requires significantly more thought than movies. When you watch a movie, by and large the majority of the action is portrayed by the visuals you see on the screen, and requires thought only so deep as to be kinda superficial beyond the scope of the pictures. Music is, by nature, a more abstract art form, where action is derived more by the elements surrounding the music than the actual music performances themselves. You have to infer the meaning of lyrics, analyze the necessary or unnecessary elements of a musical piece, it's much deeper overall than movies that have most of the meaning of a story shown to you visually. It's the same reason why poems are even less respected than music in the modern day.

Tl;Dr: Music requires a person to think more deeply than movies, which are a visual medium primarily and music is strictly auditory, and thus are given significantly less respect in the modern day.


One thing that jumps out in my experience is that a deep interest in music, poetry, that kind of non-visual art is viewed as somehow childish. Young girls are into poetry, teenagers are into music, grownups watch the odd film and binge NetFlix as & when required. There's definitely a respect element in that, but more I feel it's seen as a phase that is perfectly repsectable at (say) 15, but less so at 35. I'm sure that this view has been informed in part by the amplification of the stereotypical neckbeard weirdos online as faces for "I'm a man into poetry", etc.

It's not that I've noticed a greater respect for film / TV, but more it's accepted as an accent to day-to-day life in a way that actively exploring other arts just isn't. I don't really mix in 'subculture' circles, haven't in a good decade or more, so my experience is very much from a broad perspective; it's the attitude of people around me in general, from all sorts of demographics.
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Invocation
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am 
 

Subrick wrote:
I have a theory on why music is significantly less respected by the general population than movies. The reason is that music requires significantly more thought than movies. When you watch a movie, by and large the majority of the action is portrayed by the visuals you see on the screen, and requires thought only so deep as to be kinda superficial beyond the scope of the pictures. Music is, by nature, a more abstract art form, where action is derived more by the elements surrounding the music than the actual music performances themselves. You have to infer the meaning of lyrics, analyze the necessary or unnecessary elements of a musical piece, it's much deeper overall than movies that have most of the meaning of a story shown to you visually. It's the same reason why poems are even less respected than music in the modern day.

Tl;Dr: Music requires a person to think more deeply than movies, which are a visual medium primarily and music is strictly auditory, and thus are given significantly less respect in the modern day.


Name a film director that is as revered as an artist as Mozart, Beethoven, Bach or Wagner?

As for poetry, how many directors are as respected as artists as Shakespeare, Homer, Dante, Milton, Blake, Shelley or Wordsworth?

Methuen wrote:
One thing that jumps out in my experience is that a deep interest in music, poetry, that kind of non-visual art is viewed as somehow childish. Young girls are into poetry, teenagers are into music, grownups watch the odd film and binge NetFlix as & when required. There's definitely a respect element in that, but more I feel it's seen as a phase that is perfectly repsectable at (say) 15, but less so at 35. I'm sure that this view has been informed in part by the amplification of the stereotypical neckbeard weirdos online as faces for "I'm a man into poetry", etc.

It's not that I've noticed a greater respect for film / TV, but more it's accepted as an accent to day-to-day life in a way that actively exploring other arts just isn't. I don't really mix in 'subculture' circles, haven't in a good decade or more, so my experience is very much from a broad perspective; it's the attitude of people around me in general, from all sorts of demographics.


The majority of people don't really give a shit about any type of art. They watch TV and films as entertainment to pass they time, but they are probably even less likely to have seen a Fellini film than they are to go to an art gallery.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:44 am 
 

Methuen wrote:
It's not that I've noticed a greater respect for film / TV, but more it's accepted as an accent to day-to-day life in a way that actively exploring other arts just isn't. I don't really mix in 'subculture' circles, haven't in a good decade or more, so my experience is very much from a broad perspective; it's the attitude of people around me in general, from all sorts of demographics.


This is true and I think it has a basis in that film as a medium is very accessible for anyone. When something is on a screen peoples eyes are drawn to it immediately regardless of what it is. Most of us have probably experienced this in a bar or restaurant which has screens in it. If they are turned on people automatically watches whatever is on. I notice that in myself all the time.

It also seems like more people are likely to sit still and really watch a film or a tv-series for hours than they are to listen to music with the same intensity.

I think this is a part of how we define high and low culture. Low culture is what is immediate and accessible to the most amount of people. A steady 4/4 beat and a simple melody is super easy to enjoy for anyone. In TV is might be some base story that is easy to follow. In art it might be comic strips. The more we wander into high culture the more prerequisite knowledge we need to have to enjoy it. If music is more intricate, complex, technical or shows other sings of mastery it will often be seen as higher art compared to the aforementioned 4/4 beat with a simple melody. The same goes for the film medium. If a film requires more of the watcher it will be regarded as higher culture than a Need for Speed #59 or something along those lines.

Does this mean that all high culture is sophisticated? No, of course not but as a general thread I think there is something to it (I saw this explained in a brilliant quote by someone but I can't remember who). What we can be quite sure of is that even if easy culture can be trendy in high culture circles it is very rare that sophisticated book, music, art or poetry gain mainstream love.
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