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mr macabre
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:50 pm 
 

Okay, how many ATHEISTS are there around here? Can you believe in a god/gods and still be a fan of this music, specifically black or death metal?
Have you always been an atheist, or were you a believer who has changed their opinion on the subject of religion? I was born and raised in a catholic family with 3 sisters who went to catholic school for all 12 years. I only lasted 9 years before finishing in a public school. I've come to realize that I've been an atheist my entire life.

I've never believed a word of that bullshit, and I haven't seen a single piece of evidence that supports their existence. It's all manmade mythology. Christians will say that they have to take it on "faith", but that's just the excuse you use when you don't have any evidence that what you believe is even true. Faith isn't enough.

I'm the only Atheist in a family of devout believers in christianity. My wife and I have been married for over 41 years now, despite being polar opposites on the subject. We have 2 kids who have families of their own, and they're all christians as well. All 4 of our grandkids are being raised in the christian church.

They all dislike my tastes in music, movies, books, TV shows, and Halloween. We've had to agree to disagree on these things. They do their thing, and I do mine.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:09 pm 
 

We don't care!
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Disembodied
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:55 pm 
 

mr macabre wrote:
Okay, how many ATHEISTS are there around here? Can you believe in a god/gods and still be a fan of this music, specifically black or death metal?


If belief in god meant you couldn't listen to some of the best music around, that's not a particular god I'd want to believe in.

But no, I don't see why being created should place limits on what that creation does with itself.

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Defenestrated
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:06 pm 
 

mr macabre wrote:
Okay, how many ATHEISTS are there around here?


I think it's most of the forum, and would guess it's most of the metal community (though I don't have any stats to back this). I would also guess this is true of punk and the like. It seems to be a natural fit with the countercultural/non-conformist attitude.

With metal there's also a bit of a "nerd factor," ISTM - not in a bad way! (I'm pretty nerdy myself.) I think being a "nerd" makes one likelier to be an atheist - again, not a bad thing; it means being intellectually curious, being passionately interested in obscure niche stuff, being a bit of a misfit/eccentric - altogether, being a likelier candidate for atheism. (It's not a guarantee, of course, but I do think there's more of a tendency.)

Quote:
Can you believe in a god/gods and still be a fan of this music, specifically black or death metal?


Absolutely. There are reasons to enjoy extreme metal besides finding the lyrics/imagery/themes particularly relatable.

Quote:
Have you always been an atheist, or were you a believer who has changed their opinion on the subject of religion?


It's complicated, I've gone back and forth - I'll try not to ramble here (but probably won't succeed). I was raised Catholic, I experienced a culture shock in college, I got pretty seriously interested in atheism (and philosophy in general) as a result, but in the long run I decided it wasn't me. Depending on the day, depending on my mood, etc., I would tend to call myself "theistically inclined"; I'm not without doubts, I think I pretty well get what repels people from theism (and especially from organized religion), and overall I'm not a jerk about it, IMO. I value the years I spent in the atheist/secularist community because they gave me a better awareness and appreciation of science and progressive/non-conservative values.

The relationship between science and theism/religion is obviously complicated, too. Overall I'm suspicious of any theistic/supernatural belief that claims basis in science. (Roughly half of the scientific community is atheistic/agnostic, IIRC, and the percentage is significantly higher when you look at Nobel winners etc.) Science is the best available means of understanding the natural world, almost by definition, and I think there's no greater sign of intellectual hubris/naivete than when non-scientists claim to know better about scientific matters than the scientific community at large. (See for instance creationism, climate change denialism.) At the same time, I doubt that science itself is utterly at odds with theism. But the limits of science (or the merits of the critique of "scientism") would be a philosophical question, IMO, and unfortunately scientists and philosophers seem to have a troubled relationship at times. I'll leave it at that for now.

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I'm the only Atheist in a family of devout believers in christianity. My wife and I have been married for over 41 years now, despite being polar opposites on the subject. We have 2 kids who have families of their own, and they're all christians as well. All 4 of our grandkids are being raised in the christian church.

They all dislike my tastes in music, movies, books, TV shows, and Halloween. We've had to agree to disagree on these things. They do their thing, and I do mine.


Sounds like you all have struck a healthy, respectful balance.

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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:17 pm 
 

mr macabre wrote:
I'm the only Atheist in a family of devout believers in christianity. My wife and I have been married for over 41 years now, despite being polar opposites on the subject. We have 2 kids who have families of their own, and they're all christians as well. All 4 of our grandkids are being raised in the christian church.

They all dislike my tastes in music, movies, books, TV shows, and Halloween. We've had to agree to disagree on these things. They do their thing, and I do mine.


That sounds like a pretty rough thing to get around. Having a wife and kids who believe that much differently than you must've been hard at times.

I was forced to go to church till I was about 15 or 16. Two times every Sunday at a Baptist Church will weed most beliefs in a God right out of you.
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mr macabre
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:51 pm 
 

CoconutBackwards wrote:
mr macabre wrote:
I'm the only Atheist in a family of devout believers in christianity. My wife and I have been married for over 41 years now, despite being polar opposites on the subject. We have 2 kids who have families of their own, and they're all christians as well. All 4 of our grandkids are being raised in the christian church.

They all dislike my tastes in music, movies, books, TV shows, and Halloween. We've had to agree to disagree on these things. They do their thing, and I do mine.


That sounds like a pretty rough thing to get around. Having a wife and kids who believe that much differently than you must've been hard at times.

I was forced to go to church till I was about 15 or 16. Two times every Sunday at a Baptist Church will weed most beliefs in a God right out of you.

The subject still comes up occasionally, but we've figured out a way to make it work. We argued about it for decades before she finally realized that I'm not going to change. Our daughter still hopes/thinks that I'll suddenly "come to know Jesus" and stop being a godless heretic.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:10 pm 
 

Disembodied wrote:
mr macabre wrote:
Okay, how many ATHEISTS are there around here? Can you believe in a god/gods and still be a fan of this music, specifically black or death metal?


If belief in god meant you couldn't listen to some of the best music around, that's not a particular god I'd want to believe in.

But no, I don't see why being created should place limits on what that creation does with itself.


It doesn't! Atheists are ironically some of the most insufferable holier-than-thou folks out there. Always insisting there's some struggle to assert themselves in a world that's ultra-religious and doesn't appreciate their point of view...when the only argument they can conjure up to oppose religion is "you're delusional and God doesn't exist because science..."
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Auselesspileofflesh
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:10 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Disembodied wrote:
mr macabre wrote:
Okay, how many ATHEISTS are there around here? Can you believe in a god/gods and still be a fan of this music, specifically black or death metal?


If belief in god meant you couldn't listen to some of the best music around, that's not a particular god I'd want to believe in.

But no, I don't see why being created should place limits on what that creation does with itself.


It doesn't! Atheists are ironically some of the most insufferable holier-than-thou folks out there. Always insisting there's some struggle to assert themselves in a world that's ultra-religious and doesn't appreciate their point of view...when the only argument they can conjure up to oppose religion is "you're delusional and God doesn't exist because science..."





"Because science"
A very narrow way to put it but yeah science has helped humanity discover and understand our world and universe. However the argument is more so "I don't believe what you or your Bible say therefore proof is required" which is when the concept of Faith is thrown in and offers no clarity.

And as for being insufferable I'd throw that word at the televangelist and far-right politicians. Like even the theistic judge each other on their beliefs and it just comes off as a preschool attitude "my imaginary friend is better than yours".

I grew up Christian, and in my early life had too many questions that got sugar coated answers and the unconvincing "god of the gaps" nonsense. A lot of Atheists are just frustrated seeing good people be led astray by what we feel is a massive scam.
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Nocturnal_Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:00 pm 
 

I wasn't raised very religious, but still went through a soft-core cringe atheist/satanist phase which, luckily, didn't last. At some point there I just took a step outside myself, saw how annoying that attitude was to everyone, and also realized I'd not so much as skimmed any part of the Bible aside from the absolutely elementary portions. That's not to say that I'm anything near a believer now, but I say it because, in giving it a skeptical chance, I came to appreciate what allegorical power some of it has - for instance, Genesis reads as a cryptic analysis of our psychological development as human beings, which is pretty prescient considering psychological work targeting the psyche's development wouldn't take place until millennia later.

Ultimately, I find atheists and devout believers to be wearing different color cloaks in the same boat: one has declared "God" its master while the other has decided "progress" to be the true entity worth submitting to. Science gives you the "how" to any question you may pose if you sacrifice sufficient effort and time, but, in doing so, removes the credibility of any "why" for existence. I believe that is the reason Nietzsche threw in the line "...what was once holiest has bled to death under our knives" after his pronouncement of God's death - those knives were the scalpels of skepticism and reason. But that's the rub when it comes to reason and the will to discover - behind it is the desperate hope that we'll discover a "why," but there's always another layer waiting to be pulled back. Religion, on the other hand, provides that crucial "reason" which humans need to remain confident and content in their lives on earth, even if it's apparently fantastical. So in matters of religion, I'm torn. I could go on and on about this, but I'll end it there.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:11 am 
 

Nocturnal_Evil wrote:

Ultimately, I find atheists and devout believers to be wearing different color cloaks in the same boat: one has declared "God" its master while the other has decided "progress" to be the true entity worth submitting to.


Cant agree with this assertion. While some atheists may fit that description, by definition atheism means nothing more than not having belief in gods/deities. No more, no less.

It's neither left-wing nor right-wing, nor does it imply a steadfast submission to 'progress'. Atheists can be competent scientists or be scientifically illiterate; they can be passionate about their disbelief, or just not care about it at all.

It offers no explanation on an individual's stance regarding any topic other than belief in gods. Anything else we ascribe to it results from our own preconceived notions, biases, or plain misunderstandings about the word.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:21 am 
 

Yeah I don't get any of the comments here about atheists as a rule being "holier than thou" or dogmatic. There's some Reddit fedora assholes who make it their whole personality, so I get it about those specific people. But I just never believed in any religion or afterlife or any of it. Just how I live my life.
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lostalbumguru
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:38 am 
 

realistically it's mainly american christianity and nigerian christianity that are still around. polish people have brought peasant catholicism to other countries in recent years and the jews are still jewing, and the muslims are mostly the same as ever.

there was a philosopher who did the maths, and made a strong case for betting on god rather than atheism. it seems like the worst view of all to be an atheist, perhaps an atheist could explain what drew them to it?

NB: that was blaise pascal

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:43 am 
 

Well what does "betting" mean? I rejected religion years ago because of the ways it has been used to discriminate against others and restrict your own lifestyle. I don't see any reason to bet on any of it. Life is a pretty wonderful thing.
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lostalbumguru
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:07 am 
 

well everyone discriminates. and society without religion as a strong element is worse than society with a strong religious element. by religion I am also including moral compass, ritual, mystery, colour, shade, ceremony, nice buildings.

having said that I personally don't get on with religion that much, but atheism is itself a cult, so being forced to choose, I will choose the option with the best cost to benefit ratio, which is religious faith of some kind.

for many people life isn't wonderful, and for those people a transition to something else is important.

pascal's wager is like bayesian economics, if anyone was taught bayesian stuff. theres an algebra to god it seems!

in any event atheism seems odd to me, but I welcome any rationale from atheists here.

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pyratebastard
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:21 am 
 

There are many different ways to define these old Greek words like 'theos' and 'gnosis'. I understand the spectrum of religious thought to be defined by two concepts - knowledge (gnosis) and belief (theos). In this view, there are four quadrants.

Gnostic theist - Someone who believes in god(s) because they know they exist.
Gnostic atheist - Someone doesn't believe in god(s) because they know there are none.
Agnostic theist - Someone who believes in god(s) but bases it on faith and does not claim to know what cannot be known.
Agnostic atheist - Someone who does not believe in god(s) because they do not know what cannot be known.

The general majority of people seem to treat the idea of religion in an agnostic matter, whether they are religious or not. Most regular religious folks tend to espouse faith as their guide over knowledge. Most regular non-religious folks are not religious because religion doesn't make sense to them - and this is essentially where I fall.

The gnostic folks, whether religious or not, tend to be the loudest and most obnoxious about it all, because they truly believe that they know something that cannot be known.

On a personal note, I was raised going to church. Initially it was a First Baptist Church, and eventually a non-denominational church until my mom and I both realized that neither of us were into it anymore (I was around 14 or 15). My brother, 6 years younger than me, got spared the religious upbringing, the lucky bastard. Around 12 or 13 years old, I really began to question the material in the Bible and the hypocritical actions of those who went to church with us. The 9/11 attack and the general response in the United States really soured me on the idea of religion, and it was around this time that I was beginning to get into metal, and I was ready for some angry anti-religion. 20+ years later, I'm still generally anti-religion, though the anger subsided for the most part in my early 20s. I grew to understand that most of the issues with organized religion were just political in nature, and that adding "divine inspiration" to a political argument was responsible for much of the horror in the world. I still look at the world and see an existence where all forms of life must extinguish other forms of life just to survive, and I think that if this was designed on purpose, the designer must be incredibly sadistic at the very least. Religion doesn't make sense to me, so I am not religious.

I do know several religious people who are great people (and would still be without the religion anyway), and I've met several religious people who were absolutely horrible people (and who would probably still be horrible without the religion, anyway).

Anyway, there's my two cents - far less than the 10% tithe I was supposed to give, no doubt.
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lostalbumguru
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:36 am 
 

On a personal note, I was raised going to church. Initially it was a First Baptist Church, and eventually a non-denominational church until my mom and I both realized that neither of us were into it anymore (I was around 14 or 15). My brother, 6 years younger than me, got spared the religious upbringing, the lucky bastard. Around 12 or 13 years old, I really began to question the material in the Bible and the hypocritical actions of those who went to church with us. The 9/11 attack and the general response in the United States really soured me on the idea of religion, and it was around this time that I was beginning to get into metal, and I was ready for some angry anti-religion. 20+ years later, I'm still generally anti-religion, though the anger subsided for the most part in my early 20s. I grew to understand that most of the issues with organized religion were just political in nature, and that adding "divine inspiration" to a political argument was responsible for much of the horror in the world. I still look at the world and see an existence where all forms of life must extinguish other forms of life just to survive, and I think that if this was designed on purpose, the designer must be incredibly sadistic at the very least. Religion doesn't make sense to me, so I am not religious.


that is the american christianity I was referring to above. oh well, it infused a lot of metal albums, so it has that in its favour.

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Defenestrated
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:38 am 
 

lostalbumguru wrote:
there was a philosopher who did the maths, and made a strong case for betting on god rather than atheism. it seems like the worst view of all to be an atheist, perhaps an atheist could explain what drew them to it?

NB: that was blaise pascal


Right, Pascal has a quote somewhere in the Pensées (might try to dig it out later) to the effect that we should live each moment with the thought in mind that something could strike us dead, upon which we'd immediately face the prospect of endless suffering in Hell, entirely deserved, with no case to be made before God in our defense (but for the generous intervention of Jesus on behalf of his followers). Pascal's dying words were something like, "May God accept me" - tempting to read these as a desperate, terrified plea.

Bone-chilling to think that Pascal's summation is correct in the minds of many millions. "People despise religion," he said, "and are afraid it might be true." And the argument you're talking about is the Wager: It's the safest policy to believe God exists, so long as there's even the tiniest shred of a chance that he does exist and will damn the non-believer.

There are a number of ways to diagnose the argument as a failure. The possibility that "God exists and will damn the non-believer" needs to be weighed against any number of alternative possibilities, like "Odin exists and will damn the non-believer," or "God exists and will damn anyone who merely believes in him to avoid damnation" - the end result is a stalemate. But ignoring this, there's also the question of whether it's possible to will oneself into becoming a believer, independently of rational considerations. (Pascal answers in the affirmative, recommending a "go through the motions," "fake it until you make it" approach if nothing else succeeds.)

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lostalbumguru
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:39 am 
 

life eating itself could be viewed as a purification process, though I agree the chimpanzee aspect of daily life is tedious and often shocking.

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lostalbumguru
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:43 am 
 

the older I get the more I think it probably is as simple as pascal's wager. I view Odin as a demiurge or even an aspect of the original God god. Like our salvation was outsourced.

it's hard to say. odin might be the bad guy the good guy or the middleman. In any event I reviewed an album with a song called heaven is no place for us. We probably wouldn't like it. It's amazing any deity cares about us as all, given how corrupt and incompetent even the good humans are.

is anyone going to pick me up on atheism vs bishop bayes?

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:10 am 
 

lostalbumguru wrote:
...society without religion as a strong element is worse than society with a strong religious element. by religion I am also including moral compass, ritual, mystery, colour, shade, ceremony, nice buildings.



How do you measure this?

Regardless, one can make a case that those who acquire their morality from the dictates of a holy text must be inherently immoral by definition. In other words, if your moral compass is mandated by "rule books" composed in antiquity, and not one discerned by the individual's own volition, then they're immoral.

I don't subscribe to this POV, but it's easy to see what it's questioned.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:18 am 
 

lostalbumguru wrote:
well everyone discriminates. and society without religion as a strong element is worse than society with a strong religious element. by religion I am also including moral compass, ritual, mystery, colour, shade, ceremony, nice buildings.

having said that I personally don't get on with religion that much, but atheism is itself a cult, so being forced to choose, I will choose the option with the best cost to benefit ratio, which is religious faith of some kind.

for many people life isn't wonderful, and for those people a transition to something else is important.

pascal's wager is like bayesian economics, if anyone was taught bayesian stuff. theres an algebra to god it seems!

in any event atheism seems odd to me, but I welcome any rationale from atheists here.


Religion has a place in that I understand many people feel differently and have different beliefs. Good for them - but I just don't subscribe to it and it isn't how I live.

And yeah all those things you mention, especially moral compass, seem like you have to define that. When I mentioned "discriminating" in the other post, I was referring to any authorities not allowing people to live as they wish. I'd say a moral compass would have to be one that accepts everyone as they are and allows them to live as they wish, no judgment and no old-hat ideas of gender or sexuality or race or anything like that. This is sort of opening up a whole other rabbit hole for this thread, but this stuff is why I just never subscribed to a religion.

As for wider ideas about whether there's a god or anything after this, well none of it ever made any sense to me, just not anything I could conceive of.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:39 am 
 

lostalbumguru wrote:
for many people life isn't wonderful, and for those people a transition to something else is important.



Indeed. IMO this is the fundamental cornerstone of the type of religious belief that offers the promise of 'additional life' (ie: heaven, reincarnation, afterlife, etc).

For 99% of humanity's existence (and for the majority of humanity today), suffering, misery and imminent death have been a constant companion. If you survived long enough to procreate, the likelihood of your children surviving was slim. In this context, there's no surprise that the human mind has imagined a glorious afterlife without this 'earthly misery'. People need it to be true.

It's no coincidence that societies grow more secular almost in parallel with their growth of wealth & quality of life. IE: the less you suffer, the less need for an afterlife.

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Nocturnal_Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:27 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
Cant agree with this assertion. While some atheists may fit that description, by definition atheism means nothing more than not having belief in gods/deities. No more, no less.

It's neither left-wing nor right-wing, nor does it imply a steadfast submission to 'progress'. Atheists can be competent scientists or be scientifically illiterate; they can be passionate about their disbelief, or just not care about it at all.

It offers no explanation on an individual's stance regarding any topic other than belief in gods. Anything else we ascribe to it results from our own preconceived notions, biases, or plain misunderstandings about the word.


My fault, I should have made it clear that when I diagnosed "atheists" like that, I was referring to the cringe "own the religious people" reddit type seeing as they were brought up earlier in the thread.
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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:01 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
Regardless, one can make a case that those who acquire their morality from the dictates of a holy text must be inherently immoral by definition. In other words, if your moral compass is mandated by "rule books" composed in antiquity, and not one discerned by the individual's own volition, then they're immoral.

I don't subscribe to this POV, but it's easy to see what it's questioned.

This is never really the 'gotcha' anti-religious folks think it is, since it assumes that religious people, in the absence of moral guidance from their faith traditions, would be serial killers or something. There are lots of ways people's morality is informed by their faith or religion. Sometimes it's no different from secular folks whose morality is informed by philosophical reading they've done. The sense of superiority some anti-religious people have of 'I don't need a GOD to tell me to be GOOD, man!' strikes me not only as silly and a bit puerile but also emblematic of a fundamental misunderstanding of how most religious people understand the relationship between faith and morality.

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:12 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
Benedict Donald wrote:
Regardless, one can make a case that those who acquire their morality from the dictates of a holy text must be inherently immoral by definition. In other words, if your moral compass is mandated by "rule books" composed in antiquity, and not one discerned by the individual's own volition, then they're immoral.

I don't subscribe to this POV, but it's easy to see what it's questioned.


This is never really the 'gotcha' anti-religious folks think it is, since it assumes that religious people, in the absence of moral guidance from their faith traditions, would be serial killers or something.


Indeed.
The reality is that regardless of your faith, or lack of one, most of humanity arrives at the same, general sense, of morality. It's no coincidence that serial killers are few and far between. The differences in morality are a measure of degree, not in kind.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:28 pm 
 

I'm not an "atheist", I just don't believe in things that doesn't exist.
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Lane
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Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 11:54 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:41 am 
 

mr macabre, so you don't get to wear your "Jesus is a cunt" shirt in Christmas time celebrations?

Pardon me if that joke was stupid. I know what it feels to be somewhat an outsider...

Due to bad experiences in my life (both myself and relatives + friends) I decided to be an atheist when I was about 25 yo. I guess something between agnostic theist and atheist what I am nowadays. Universe has always existed? How is that possible? Or was it created by something? The latter seems easier to comprehend, but I still do not believe in a beardy good-guy a.k.a. God. Why would God like that cause absolute hell over so many people? Because they've done something wrong (against ten commandments or whatever belief)? Like that 3-year old child who cancer just killed?

So many questions and no answers that prove anything.
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Last edited by Lane on Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Disembodied
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:08 am 
 

Lane wrote:
Why would God like that cause absolute hell over so many people? Because they've done something wrong (against ten comandments or whatever belief)? Like that 3-year old child who cancer jusdt killed?


Those are good, appropriate questions. That's why I think to even begin to talk about most questions involving theology first we have to define what "God" is and what he does and doesn't do. If we say he causes car crashes to happen, then what about the responsibility of the drivers of the cars? Is he controlling them too? Do we have any free will or autonomy at all? To what extent?

I find most arguments defending or attacking God to not really address these kind of questions, probably because they're only interested in defending their own views. Quoting scripture doesn't cut it either.

And since everyone else has contributed personal views, I'll throw my hat in the ring and say that in my journey from firm atheist to wavering theist to uncertainty, what I think about the most these days is this: when I look around and ask myself if there's anything on this planet or universe that I don't have or cannot have access to, I can pretty confidently say no. I know there are many possible explanations for that, but if I was asked to assume the existence of a Creator and then to imagine the best creation possible for that creation to make a heaven or hell of their choosing, I'd struggle to think of anything that's not what we've already got. Maybe aliens, but that's not outside the realm of possibility.

That's by no means an argument or meant to convince anyone, just a very personal perspective.

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Defenestrated
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Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:50 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:30 pm 
 

^I'm having a hard time knowing what to make of the phrase "have access to," in your question whether there's anything we do not or cannot have access to.

Is it physical access (as in being able to perceive via the senses), cognitive access (as in being able to imagine, understand, know, think about), or something else? Just interested in clarification, not wanting to debate anything - though if it is physical or cognitive access, I think it'd be very hard to defend the claim that we have access to everything in the universe. OTOH, I can more easily make sense of "moral access," as in being faced with opportunities to act in better or worse ways, be better or worse people - moral freedom, in other words. (I'm not sure that's what you intended with your phrasing, but it sort of fits with "mak[ing] a heaven or hell of their choosing"...?)

Also, re. definitions of "God," I'll just throw a couple thoughts out there: I doubt that anyone (apart from small children, maybe) "really" wants to define God in anthropomorphic or even physicalistic ways (which would in effect make God only a super-advanced human being, and/or "just another item" on the list of things that exist). I find it strangely fascinating and appealing when religious people stress the limits of language in some way or another, whether it's by making purposefully metaphorical (to some minds incoherent) gestures towards the divine as something "other than" what language can get a handle on, or by declaring God linguistically "off-limits" and conveying this with blank silence. In my experience, this sort of thing isn't much to be found in group worship - the Quakers' silent worship probably qualifies as an exception.

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Coastliner
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 4:11 pm 
 

pyratebastard wrote:
I still look at the world and see an existence where all forms of life must extinguish other forms of life just to survive, and I think that if this was designed on purpose, the designer must be incredibly sadistic at the very least. Religion doesn't make sense to me, so I am not religious.


Exactly, sadistic, it's the old theodicy problem. As regards human victims of tragedies, believers often sell the Valley of the Shadow as a kind of divine test of the human soul. But what about the foundations of non-human nature? An animal eats another animal alive in order to survive. Whoever single-handedly designed nature in all its facets also invented the sensation of pain, but why did the supposedly benevolent he/she/it decide that nature can only thrive on pain? The thought that pain is the fuel that spins the wheels is a disgrace.

That's why I'm an atheist. I know I should stay away from religious topics because, for me, religion, with its shirts, hats and shoes, masks and dances, regular community meetings and rulebooks, is just the biggest LARP event in history.

Those who choose God, gods or Satan as their ally do so because they can't endure the thought that, maybe, they're alone in a cold universe – as alone as the gnu calf that, right now, loses a leg to a crocodile while its family makes for the horizon.
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lostalbumguru
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Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:55 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:11 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
lostalbumguru wrote:
...society without religion as a strong element is worse than society with a strong religious element. by religion I am also including moral compass, ritual, mystery, colour, shade, ceremony, nice buildings.



How do you measure this?

Regardless, one can make a case that those who acquire their morality from the dictates of a holy text must be inherently immoral by definition. In other words, if your moral compass is mandated by "rule books" composed in antiquity, and not one discerned by the individual's own volition, then they're immoral.

I don't subscribe to this POV, but it's easy to see what it's questioned.


I didn't expect to come to this worldview other than life experience whereby most things are significantly worse now than they used to be, not that I pretend that suffering and crazy unjust circumstances did not always exist.

However my view of atheism has always been that it sits atop a slippery slope to soul-lessness. It takes very little to turn people into sociopaths, into machinelike beings. This is where we are now. The trap is so deadly because it looks like a natural course of events, it looks like it's not that bad, like a fine mist.

So for a humanising effect, for passion, for some kind of anchor point in decency, for some narrative depth, and for the nice buildings, I'll side with non-atheism. On the other hand I don't think it's a topic you can really get into without asking people for personal contributions, and for sure peoples personal ethics and worldviews are their own and not for me or anyone else to touch.

I'm just here for the albums no-one cared about. God and the good world, are beyond my scope, even if it's refreshing to dig out some stuff like pascal and bayes.

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Ezadara
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:29 pm 
 

Coastliner wrote:
Those who choose God, gods or Satan as their ally do so because they can't endure the thought that, maybe, they're alone in a cold universe – as alone as the gnu calf that, right now, loses a leg to a crocodile while its family makes for the horizon.

This is another silly and reductionist take and I don't know why anti-religious folks keep resorting to it. It doesn't hold up for five minutes under any meaningful intellectual engagement with people who are religious-- if I wanted to be equally reductionist I could say it comes across as just a way to pat yourself on the back for being brave enough to face up to what you perceive to be reality while the implicitly lesser religious turn to faith out of nothing but cowardice.

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Coastliner
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:54 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
if I wanted to be equally reductionist I could say it comes across as just a way to pat yourself on the back for being brave enough to face up to what you perceive to be reality while the implicitly lesser religious turn to faith out of nothing but cowardice.


I consider myself lucky that you don't seem ("if I wanted" = subjunctive) to want to be reductionist. :wink:
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:07 pm 
 

lostalbumguru wrote:
However my view of atheism has always been that it sits atop a slippery slope to soul-lessness. It takes very little to turn people into sociopaths, into machinelike beings.


I mean this is essentially saying that atheists can't have actual morals - a pretty disgusting insinuation...
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:14 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
lostalbumguru wrote:
However my view of atheism has always been that it sits atop a slippery slope to soul-lessness. It takes very little to turn people into sociopaths, into machinelike beings.


I mean this is essentially saying that atheists can't have actual morals - a pretty disgusting insinuation...


Indeed. This is an example one of the intrinsic bigotries of many theistic belief systems (particularly of the Abrahamic religions).

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:20 pm 
 

lostalbumguru wrote:
[ It takes very little to turn people into sociopaths, into machinelike beings. This is where we are now.


Agreed. This is evidenced by the graveyards of history which overflow with the corpses of the millions murdered by the "holy", those drunk on 'god', and doing his work.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:20 pm 
 

If believing in a higher power gets you through stuff or brings meaning to you, great, wouldn't take it away from anyone... but for it to be a respectable view you have to also be respectful of all of those who are different than you.
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lostalbumguru
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Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:55 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:32 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
lostalbumguru wrote:
However my view of atheism has always been that it sits atop a slippery slope to soul-lessness. It takes very little to turn people into sociopaths, into machinelike beings.


I mean this is essentially saying that atheists can't have actual morals - a pretty disgusting insinuation...


Indeed. This is an example one of the intrinsic bigotries of many theistic belief systems (particularly of the Abrahamic religions).


I'm not saying all atheists are this way, I'm saying atheism as a macro construct tends to lead this way. reddit atheism and political and academic atheism are all very slippery. I would never accuse all atheists of being party to dehumanisation, and surely there are many reasonable and compassionate atheists. I'm just saying for several reasons it's better for certain religious dynamics to be maintained at some level, and that overall we are worse off for going a down a certain road the last 7 years or so.

I'm not even strongly theist or religious other than having lived a while, the other options do their own crimes against the soul, and ultimately trying to keep the world-soul seems like a good thing to do, as against letting technocratic social engineering turn us all dead inside.

In any event I'm not saying having a soul has to be a religious thing, but I am saying the alternatives seem to be slippery in a certain direction, and I welcome any examples since 2016 to persuade me otherwise. Of course, no-one is forced to agree that being human in a certain way is good or bad, or that a soul exists or that it matters.

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lostalbumguru
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:41 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
lostalbumguru wrote:
[ It takes very little to turn people into sociopaths, into machinelike beings. This is where we are now.


Agreed. This is evidenced by the graveyards of history which overflow with the corpses of the millions murdered by the "holy", those drunk on 'god', and doing his work.


religious people are of course also often dronelike, easily swayed, and sadistic. Im saying beyond all that that some kind of theism seems more reasonable than strong atheism.

I suppose really it's just a very small tendency away from reductionism, and of course some satanism is theistic, and some people construct a soul out of an interest in nature or literature or other things. Actually apart from it being the theme of the times we live in, I don't like saying anyone should do anything, it's more a case of deducing things from observing how fucked up life is nowadays. The world is going deeply wrong in a way that's quite interesting and different from other bad paths in previous decades.

It's vaguely unsettling, and I'll contribute my comments for whatever they're worth, but I have no agenda one way or another, other than to offer some notes on the topic at hand. I welcome all comments from atheists, satanists (ive known a few), or believers in any or all deities. Im pretty sure it's every man for himself. Save yourself if you want to be saved, though who knows what that means in the end.

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Disembodied
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Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:29 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:51 pm 
 

Defenestrated wrote:
^I'm having a hard time knowing what to make of the phrase "have access to," in your question whether there's anything we do not or cannot have access to.

Is it physical access (as in being able to perceive via the senses), cognitive access (as in being able to imagine, understand, know, think about), or something else? Just interested in clarification, not wanting to debate anything - though if it is physical or cognitive access, I think it'd be very hard to defend the claim that we have access to everything in the universe. OTOH, I can more easily make sense of "moral access," as in being faced with opportunities to act in better or worse ways, be better or worse people - moral freedom, in other words. (I'm not sure that's what you intended with your phrasing, but it sort of fits with "mak[ing] a heaven or hell of their choosing"...?)


That's fair. Correct me if I'm wrong but I imagine with regard to physical access you have in mind things like food and water, land and housing? Most of the world doesn't have access to that, and ask one of those people if they have everything they want and they'll most likely look at you like you're crazy. But I'm not sure it's as simple as that. A lot of limitations humans have faced have had their positives - like the opportunity to overcome those limitations, a way to spend time productively feeling that you're doing something worthwhile (which for most people gives them a sense of self-worth), a sense of belonging by forming groups and families to attain material benefits. One example of this is that I think a lot of scientists who contributed to discoveries which furthered the world's technological and material progress would have been unhappy spending their lives in a big house with unlimited food having nothing to do, so in a way conflict or lack has given them "access" to something they wouldn't have had without it. Just as doctors and nurses and health workers need sick patients (who need doctors and nurses). So it's basically being able to see the "absence of" something in both a negative and positive way.

But yeah, obviously it would be a stretch to make that same point for a lot of situations. It would be hard to argue the people in Gaza right now have access everything they want, and I don't have an answer for that. And I don't want to argue for the existence of karma or that on some level we somehow all get what we want (I've heard this argument in some spiritual circles), although I do think the subconscious plays a significant role here.

Not sure if that's what you had in mind - feel free to elaborate on other flaws you can see.

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