Thing is, a lot of Christians (I mean the ones that are devoted to Christianity 100%) that think almost everything is a sin. I've read articles where close-minded Christians claim Styper is a Satanic band because they 'cross-dress'.
Songs are usually greatest when they write it on something they believe in (there are exceptions like I personal like Slayer). I will listen to anything as long as it sounds good, whether Christian, Satanic, or whatever. One of the great things about metal is its diversity.

1) I'm not just talking about how quantitavely influential these figures were; I'm talking about in what way they influenced the course of history. The point I'm making is that at certain points in history, figures who weren't necessarily attested to by their contemporaries nevertheless appear to have existed. You can often tell when something happened that seems to require a historical agent.

2) Exactly what wight_ghoul said. There's really no reason to believe that Jesus was a composite or mythological figure when all the early oral and written traditions seem to refer to a single person. Is it 100% conclusive? No. Is it very probable? Yes. That's all I'm saying.

I'm getting a little tired of the argument though, to be honest. I'll just direct you to "The Closing of the Western Mind" by Charles Freeman and its (thorough) bibliography which got me interested in the subject. The book has been criticized for being a bit too critical of early Christianity, but I don't think that will be an obstacle to your enjoyment or, indeed, most posters' on this board.


There are a lot of historical figures who are not attested to by contemporaries and, as wight_ghoul said, we have every reason to believe that Jesus was acknowledged by contemporaries in the form of a cult originating in Jerusalem. Also, there are FAR fewer anachronisms and distortions in the sources describing Jesus than in the case of King Arthur. By the way, I would argue that there were only one or two real British war-chiefs who provided the basis for the legend of King Arthur, but that's completely irrelevant.

I am a 100% dedicated Christian and I don't think Stryper is a satanic band, nor do I think almost everything is a sin. The bible defines a sin as disobeying God's rules. God's rules are outlined in the 10 commandments (Of course, this list in not all inclusive.) Any Christian that thinks nearly everything is a sin is definitely wrong. The bible says nothing about cross dressing being a sin. You are right although I would replace close minded with ignorant.




I agree. When lyricists write lyrics about Satan or God I feel that they should genuinely believe in what they are writing lyrics about. There is really no way to tell for sure, but a band like Possessed I think just writes satanic lyrics because either they can't think of anything else or they want to achieve a certain effect. I highly doubt that the members of Possessed are actually as satanic as their lyrics describe. A lot of bands use satanic lyrics in an attempt to sell their music or too look tough or cool. I'm not getting down on actual satanists, but there a lot of satanic posers out there. If you walk the walk you have to talk the talk.

You should get some Christian Metal, there are a lot of good bands you would enjoy. Check out Tourniquet, Extol, Antestor, Immortal Souls, Virgin Black, Mortification, Slechtvalk, Sympathy, Sacrament, etc...

Whats funny about me being a Christian is that a ton of the music I listen to has satanic lyrics (out of coincidence, not on purpose) and my parents always ask me if I'm still a Christian. I have heard a few of those names before, but thanks

Actualy there is a story in the bible, although I can't remember where in at the moment, that does condemn dressing eccentrically as a sin. Although this may have just been applied to women since the bible does tend to be very sexist at times.

Which reminds me....read this:

20 David went back to bless the people in his home, but Saul's daughter Michal came out to meet him. She said, "With what honor the king of Israel acted today! You took off your clothes in front of the servant girls of your officers like one who takes off his clothes without shame!"

21 Then David said to Michal, "I did it in the presence of the Lord. The Lord chose me, not your father or anyone from Saul's family. The Lord appointed me to be over Israel. So I will celebrate in the presence of the Lord.22 Maybe I will lose even more honor, and maybe I will be brought down in my own opinion, but the girls you talk about will honor me!"

23 And Saul's daughter Michal had no children to the day she died.


EDIT: Notice David took off his clothes in front of the girls and dances (for the Lord), and he says "the girls you talk about will honor me!" (LOL, I'm sure they will be thinking about THAT for a while!)

But for questioning it, Saul's daughter Michal, gets cursed. (DOUBLE LOL)

Which is why I said a lot instead of all.

I am a Christian, despite not agreeing with some Christian theologies, practices, etc (there are many demoninations/beliefs/stances on issues, etc), but I still appreciate metal music. Many genres of metal are my favorite music, and as long as the "satanic" or what-not bands I listen to are GENUINE about their satanic beliefs, then I respect them for their own beliefs and appreciate their music if they are genuine in their music making. I believe that my faith tells me I should be loving and respectful of other people.

But if it's just a band that tries to "look satanic" just to be cool and go along with some bandwagon, then I don't appreciate their music as much since I know they're not sincere. One of my best friends holds satanic beliefs, and I respect him and love him despite that and thus despite the fact that his beliefs may contradict mine. Just as black metal is my favorite genre of metal despite the often satanic ideologies.

But I have seen other Christians acting more like fundies and bashing other Christians who listen to any metal, even if it's Christian metal. That is just so sad and stupid. I can't stand it when others push things in peoples' throats. If a person who holds certain faith/religion beliefs think it's bad for them to listen to a genre of music, I don't think it's right for them to force others of their beliefs to do the same. To each their own.

One thing that confuses me about the "Lack of Imperical Info On Jesus" argument is that it's often cited that there were hundreds of Messiah figures running about the Levant at the time. Doesn't that actually mean that the likelihood of some preacher dude called Yeshwah is stronger rather than weaker? If there really were hundreds of these guys running about, surely one of them would have fit the bill to some extent.

There's a tremendous difference between 'some dude named Yeshua running around', said dude actually having more than a passing resemblance to the character(s) portrayed in any of the gospels and said dude actually being the source of the stories. The first being probably true in no way implies the second or third actually being true.

On top of that, there's the blatant impossibility of the canonical gospels all being correct as they're internally contradictory in several rather important places.

Of course, if the gospels were correct you'd expect the romans to have fucking noticed some of the goings on. But those are hardly the oldest examples of biblical events somehow managing to happen without any other group in the world noticing them and without leaving any evidence.

Really? Sorry, I appear to be completely insane, but I think that the idea of there being "thousands" of Messiahs about would mean that the possibility of one being called Yeshua and passingly resembling the dude from the bible was stronger instead of weaker.

I wasn't necessarily meaning that it means the odds of such a dude existing and being the source of Jesus jump from 1% possibility to 99% possibility or anything, just a modest jump to 5% or something. I mean, what's so monumentally unlikely about a lad of unknown paternal origin, being born in Bethlehem, moving to Nazareth to become a carpenter, ending up thinking he's the Messiah and forming a little group of disciples before he gets crucified? I can understand the skepticism of miracles and stuff, but surely it isn't that unreasonable.

I know you're not directly responding to me, but I just wanted to clarify that I was not arguing that the historical dude I think existed had much of a resemblance to the Jesus that people now worship. Rather, my argument is that there was probably a single person who founded the religious communities that became the later Church, even if a lot of the details about his life are incorrect.


The fact that they are contradictory doesn't mean that they don't constitute evidence (however weak) for his existence but I agree that they definitely don't provide a lot of reliable insight into his life.

That "diversity" is not recognized and appreciated by those with a stereotype view of metal.

I am a satanist, but music has nothing to do with religion, I can listen to any sort of music, but that does not change my religion at all, whatsoever, at school, they could be playing christmas music in the hallways at the given time of year, and if I walk past and hear the song mention Jesus, that doesn't mean I am a disgrace to my religion.

People should respect your choice in whatever you believe in even if they personally hate it. After all, it is your choice and as long as you don't disrespect them, they shouldn't care. As far as I'm concerned, music should be completely seperated from metal. Some people feel that metal is anti-religious and some of it is. People shouldn't have a problem with that. If a person that will never become a chistian is listening to satanic music, what can they do? That person isn't hurting them or anyone else with their choice of music. I have "God Hates Us all" by Slayer and I think it is a great album. THere is an interview with Kerry King (i think) and he says that he doesn't really think that "God hates us all" and that it just sounds cool to scream it. My point is, religion should not affect your music choice and it should not make other people look down upon you.

Kerry King and Jeff Hanneman are atheists, last I knew. That said, God Hates Us All is an incredibly juvenile album, as the title alludes to with no subtlety. And satanism is as much based on the cult of Yeshua (excuse the misspelling earlier - I'm clearly quite poor at spelling Semitic terms and names) as Christianity, the cult itself is. I view them as one and the same, so theistic satanists are as irrational as Christians.

I grew up listening to Slayer and love the Lombardo years pretty much only. Even though I did like CHRIST ILLUSION (mostly for the music only not the lyrics), it's possible that at least lyrically they are going through major motions. After finally watching Metallica's SOME KIND OF MONSTER completely through last night (only saw bits of pieces of it before) I can safely say that many of these bands are just going through the motions and are almost completely uninspired...and it shows in their music. The lack of passion and angst in some of these bands of yore are obviously forced at this point.

In regards of my own religious beliefs (I feel I need to state them to form the opinion of said topic stated below) pull from here and there; although I might me pantheist in nature; and do to a certain extent believe in reincarnation or better yet; regeneration of souls and karma; I was raised Unitarian (although my Dad grew up Baptist and Mom was Jewish). Somewhere in my mid teens, I felt like I was an atheist and pretty much didn't believe in anything until my first psychedelic period around 21 in which I was drawn to reading BE HERE NOW and GOD'S ETERNAL QUEST which shaped my thoughts a bit. I joined THE SELF REALIZATION FELLOWSHIP and was apart of that for a few years but I felt as if I didn't need it anymore. Somewhere along the line certain readings appealed to me and were applicable and they help shape my ever sharpening view of everything in life. I do feel a large kinship to Nietzsche's later writings and I do agree with Christianity/Judaism being rooted in guilt and that it stifles growth.

About metal and religion (i.e. the original topic); I can only relate it to how it relates to me. I at one point thought too that certain things I'd have to cut out of my life due to my new found beliefs, but the fact is; many people have issues with running away from their true selves. I think it's whatever you like, you like. You can't put labels on things. But more than anything I believe it's all about balance. Most Christians that would shun metal (or horror movies, or what they might deem negative) might not understand what balance is about. I think we are not that evolved yet as a human species to be all in spirit and that's not even what's it's about anyway. It's about accepting the lower self and higher self and realizing that you are this spirit grounded to an animal body. Sure, we can reason and might know the difference between good and evil (for whatever that might be worth) but there is nothing wrong with understanding who we are and in order to maintain harmony is to maintain balance.

Those people who deny their lower selves and say certain things are too "lower vibrational" are just denying another side of themselves, and a whole other side that could be explored which can contain power. Knowing how to use this power for the positive obviously is the trick though, knowing how to turn that negative energy into a positive to use to your advantage at will. Now some say they have already delved into that side and want it to just go away, and by believing in Christ or something else will take that away, but I don't believe it ever goes away completely. Why not embrace who you really are?

These people who are "scared" of Slayer and metal because of their religion must understand that those bands and the culture at large (now I'm talking rock n'roll in general) has rejected those idealisms and don't want to be told what to think and that always scared these people. It's not the music per se' it's the ideology of freedom all across the board. From Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Little Richard; to The Stones, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath onward. It's too "free" for them and it awakes things in them that they don't want awakened. But to be scared of the unknown is typical human nature, once you understand what something is about then you can make the judgement. But just because it's not some southern baptist christian music (insert pun here) doesn't make it necessarily "evil".

But evenso, that is apart of our human makeup. Denying the inherent "evil" in many ways I find a weak thing. Sure, certain things in life and within can be very scary but once you deal with that head on you can use it to your advantage.

Maybe some people are more evolved and don't "get it"; but I guess it depends from where you listen from. It can be from on a mountaintop or at gutteral level...I guess you can listen to it from any angle.

Depends on their macabre leaning, Psychobilly might be right up their alley. Tiger Army rocks.

I personally don't ever try to get people into Metal. I really haven't... I guess, ever. I would play stuff just to show off some songs or certain things (like the "happy flute" part of Nokturnal Mortum's Taste of Victory). Other than that, there's no point in trying to get others into this music. What's more important is simply finding people like you and knowing someone well enough that they might actually "get" Metal.

That's a big part of Metal--not just "liking the music" but actually "getting" the music. But then, I suppose that goes for most things in life. Those who don't have a gamer mindset struggle at video games that gamers (like me) would percieve as simple puzzle solving. My wife constantly asks how I can figure out puzzles in vigeo games so easily. I shrug and tell her that "I just understand how it works."

The christians are full of fears, Metal is strong and mostly agressive so they associate it with violence and rebelliousness. An ex-christian friend of me, told me something similar.

I was raised Catholic, and feel the exact same way as you do. As long as the vocals are good, and much more importantly, the music and lyrics are well written, I'll probably enjoy it. I'm not offended if someone starts talking about God, or if a band starts singing about God. That's stupid. Not everyone has the same beliefs.

That being said, there is a very small handful of Christian bands I enjoy, but that's only because I have found few that have well written songs.

This should be a good laugh for the topic being discussed... http://www.imeem.com/people/-E5ErE/musi ... in_heaven/

(a lot of) Christians fear everything that could be associated with the devil. They're taught at a young age that sin is bad, and leads to an eternal damnation, filled with torture and evil and such. Truth is, if you scare kids enough at a young age, they'll be scared for the rest of their lives.

I don't think many mainstream protestant christians practice that old damnation stuff. Sure, there's hell, but it's not as "vivid" in the imagery. In fact, most protestant branches are just watered down versions.

I think the main conflict is stereotypical Slayer against Christian mothers.

Growing up I have attended many different protestant church's and I can safely say that hell is still a major part of the church. Just because it isn't as "vivid" in imagery does not mean that it is still not a scare tactic. There is still a great emphasis on the idea that hell is a terrible place that you do not want to go to.

I think this is overgeneralizing. Many denominations have almost completely obliterated hell from there message. Many still employ scare tactics./ It all depends where you go.

"Ozzy is also famed as the former lead singer of the Satanic band, Black Sabbath. In one of the more popular songs of Black Sabbath, Iron Man, Ozzy Osborne personifies Satan as the "Iron Man," proclaiming that he "kills those he wants saved."
From www.jesus-is-savior.com

That's the best example of propaganda. I am a Christian, but it's people like this guy who make us look bad.

I did a speech on the issue of Music Censorship and I touched on the top of religion, safe to say not too many people in my Freshman English class had any idea who Dee Snider and Frank Zappa are .

All those accusations against metal are due to their ignorance (by their I mean sterotypical mothers,politicans,etc.), I mean it's easy for a mother or whomever to pass off a Slayer or Mercyful Fate album as obscene and pure satanism (not far off with Mercyful Fate but see my point?)..but jesus (no pun intended), the holy bible is just as sick and violent as most of the things these religious groups pick on,plus all the bloodshed in the name of Jesus Christ, they've no right.

I have a friend that one day said to me "Slayer would be my favorite band if they didn't talk about Satan"....he is also into a fucking "christian" group that looks more like a Maria worshipper club than a God one....I mean, Christianity in Mexico is really fucked up, but it obviously has its explanatio



define "self-proclaimed Christians", I mean, what do you need to be a Christian? just to say "hey, I'm one"?

Actually, yeah. That's all you have to do to be a Christian. As long as one says they're Christian, and their ideology matches (for instance, monotheism which is formed as a trinity of Yahweh (the Father/God)/Jesus/Holy Spirit, and acceptance of the canon as reality), they're a Christian. Many Christians enjoy thoroughly to use that 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

People who would love death or black metal, for instance, but for the 'screaming' or 'growling' anger the everliving shit out of me. That's like me claiming that I would love 50 Cent if he didn't rap, and his themes weren't stereotypical consumerist bullshit. I'd be speaking of a totally different 'musician', as I removed several core attributes.

Yes there may possibly be denominations that have removed that from there message but I was talking about protestantism specificaly, so no I am not overgeneralizing.

This is probably what puts people off Christianity. It's doctrines are built on fear and coercion, basically, "be good and you'll get into heaven/be bad and you'll go to hell". Which suggests (for me) that to them, if there was no heaven or hell, they'd think it justifiable to go round killing. That seems to be the gist for a lot of fundamentalist models.

People don't want to be scared of things. Luckily (despite my general revulsion towards Abrahamic religions) there are discerning Christians who embrace the abject and don't bury their heads on the sand.

Isn't the fear/coersion model used for everything, though? "Don't run out onto the road or you'll get run over", "don't play with knives or you'll get cut", "don't look in the cellar or your deformed brother will eat your head" etc. Obviously, the big difference is that it's fundamentally more scientifically provable and even quite likely to get killed via car, knife or deformed brother than it is to go to heaven or hell based on your actions in this life, but the principle is the same to such people. If you're afraid of your children being eternally damned, why wouldn't you try to keep them out?

Same with coersion: "Do this and you'll get a reward" works from getting a child to behave to their first jobs to fulfilling a role in society. Difference is, again, rewards in this life are tangible and knowable, the rewards for a saintly life being largely a mystery or downright myth to this plane of existence.



Most Christians don't seem to be want to be afraid of Satan or Hell either (what with all the prayers asking God to help them fearing no evil and such), but the fact is that fear is a very effective way to get people to do what you say, be it something practical like not touching fire for fear of getting burned, or something spiritual like not committing sins for fear of getting tossed into hell.

I generally agree that the misuse of coercion/fear in teaching, Christian or otherwise, is problematic in some places (going to Church in Florida - a Catholic one, even - was an utterly terrifying experience), it's just I don't think it's quite as unique to Christianity or religion in general as it sometimes seems.

Of course, I live in a country where any attempt to humour creationism in the science classroom is laughed off with the venomous derision it richly deserves, so what do I know?

So. I was raised Catholic. I don't completely reject Christian music because of it's content, nor do I believe in most of the things in BM. It's a question of purpose. Some see music as only a vehicle for ideas, sooo if a christian hears Ea, Lord Of The Depths and has the proclivity to read into music exclusively lyrically then what do you expect.

Sorry, but I really dont see this. Being a lifelong christian who attends a private christian school, I am surrounded by Christians almost 24/7. I can count the non-christians I know on one hand. I almost never encounter people like you are describing. The only people I have met who are like that are A.) Old people or B.) Small children.

Maybe its just my denomination, but we were NEVER taught to fear hell or the devil. I have always heard the focus being on trusting in God to protect you rather than fearing.

What denomination do you belong to exactly? I find it hard to believe that you were not once taught about hell or satan. I remember as early as the age of 4 learning about the satan. This was while attending a protestant church as well. I am pretty sure that protestantism is generaly considered one of the lighter denominations when compared to say catholicism.

I think that metal and religion are not necessarily opposites. I am catholic, and I love bands such Cradle Of Filth or Dimmu Borgir... you can be christian and listen to black metal if you want. I agree with the opinion of a previous post in this topic, God surely doesn't care of your musical preferences.
I'm getting bored both with people who always criticize (christian) religion, but also with people who say that metal has to disappear. Of course, I totally disagree with Darkthrone's point of view on religion for example (more generally with black metal bands), but I support them in the way that they do something personal. They believe in what they do.
Moreover, there also christian bands. For example, Soulfly: Max Cavalera (who was formerly screaming in Sepultura) often writes some religious songs (such as "I Believe") and it doesn't avoid him from playing amazing thrash metal.
I just wanted to say that metal and religion shouldn't be a problem. You're a christian ? Ok, do what you want to. You're a satanist ? Ok, do what you want to. You're a heathen ? Ok, do what you want to, etc...
To me, that's just a question of open-mindedness and respect to what musicians do, in spite of their different beliefs.

Open-mindedness, I think, lies in one's ability to accept and admit wrongness, not in some arbitrary personal preference.

I am Evangelical.

No, they mentioned Stan, but it was never emphasized really. hell was mentioned, but only as a place that we weren't going to. The point being, they always emphasized that we had nothing to fear. it would eb wrong to scare little kids with images of Hell and Satan.

Ugh, this reminded me of someone who said It's impossible for me to be Buddhist and listen to metal. I quickly ignored the fellow and went on listening to metal.

Yes it is very wrong to scare children with images of hell. By telling you that you don't have to fear hell becuase you have a relationship with god is also inadvertantly telling you that hell is a bad place that you will go to if you don't have a relationship with god. Having a lack of a relationship will lead up to you going there and this lack of a relationship with god, according to most of the churchs I have attended, can be attributed to buying into Satans temptation. Falling for satans temptation can only happen if you have a lapse in faith in your god, the christian god. A lapse in faith would occur when another doctorine seems to be true but at the same time contradicts your faith. So in effect, for the christian of your denomination, it is other doctorines that you taught to fear because they will lead you to hell. They are still instilling fear in you whether or not you or even they know it.