I think christianity and all naysayers in general have a problem with metal because they lack the ability to see the tongues planted firmly in the cheeks of bands like Venom or Piledriver. I guess its because in Christianity the devil, sex, drugs, murder, etc are not something to joke about. I don't really like when a band plays Christian metal because I personally think that it limits them creatively. That said I'm not a fan of the dozens of Norweigien Satanic death metal bands either for the same reason. I think Christianity can have its place in metal without ruining the merits of either. Take a band like Saint for instance. Christians celebrating their faith in a way that is enjoyable for all.

The only music I can tolerate with any moderate Christian aesthetic is classical music. Even then, it is merely a part of the motif, and since lyrics are rare or wholly absent, I don't have to deal with the praise of fictional or exaggerated figures that saturates so many facets of society. Norwegian black metal bands often use Satan as imagery; most are pagan or atheistic, I imagine.

I don't think the issue is about metal and religion. Not every religion is attacked in metal, only Judeo-Christian ones. And, usually, God's existence isn't even expressly denied. Typically, death and black metal bands just mock J-C mythology and symbols. It's less about protest against religion and more about taking something people revere and throwing it in the mud.

I once went to a metal fest that lasted two days in which Atheist headlined. It struck me as ironic that almost all the bands billed on the first day were doom bands, with Atheist headlining the second. The fact that this went unnoticed bothered me for a bit, but then I looked at the bar. Nothing but Pepsi and 7up. I quickly realized that the Christians wouldn't be there tomorrow night, and I was relieved. See? Even though it may go unsaid, there's really no place for religious fervor in extreme metal. Also, for the most part, Christian bands don't get billed with proper death and black metal acts. (Please don't start listing all counter-examples. I'm just saying that this is true for the most part, and I doubt it's coincidental.)

Because most Christians realize that Christian Metal is crap.

That would be me, with the exception of the more obscure bands such as Trouble.
My mother has had a subscription to Plugged In for several years and I read every issue. I ahve never heard them say that about Christian Metal. They positively reviewed Underoath, although they expressed distaste for the sound ("A chainsaw factory blowing up").

Metal and religion is fine. We're lucky in a way. Most religious metalheads understand that Jesus doesn't care what kind of music they play.

I just consider Metal can't be dedicated to a religion, if it is, except Satanism. And Black Metal can't be anything else than dedicated to Satan, as it has always been, and thats all.

I think its different for that, since (except in a few cases) they were only pretending to be Theistic satanists to shock people.

I don't know how it is in the rest of Europe, but satanism is growing pretty big here in Italy. Some years ago there was this death metal band, "Bestie di Satana", and they killed 3 people in the name of Satan.

Read this article:

http://www.tldm.org/News10/satanismInItaly.htm

Don't you think that is pretty interesting, considering that Italy hosts the Vatican?

Ah, on a side note, guess wich cities have the most satanist sects?

1) London
2) Turin
3) San Francisco
4) Chicago
5) Rome

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but I have to ask: who finds this stuff out?

On the subject of religion and metal...I am not a religious person at all. I do not really listen to "Christian metal", purely because i barely know any bands of that genre. Save for Believer. (who were a great band actually) I think you can enjoy music without agreeing with the lyrics, or the viewpoints of the band. The only exception I would have to this, is bands who advocate hatred and prejudice for others. (Neo-Nazi bands, for example. Though all the ones I've heard have had crap music anyway, but i digress ) Helloween are a band I love very much, and most of that band are now Christians. Sure, some of their pro-Christanity lyrics make me baulk a little, ("Speak the Bible's words, speak it pure his soul" from "Time", and the whole of "Lavdate Dominvm" being obvious examples) but they do not really detract from my enjoyment of the songs. I'm sure just having the name "Helloween" would make some extreme Christians denounce them as playing "the Devil's music", even though they are mainly now a Christian band. It really is quite ridiculous, but then rationality hardly goes hand in hand with extreme religious beliefs now, does it?

As for metal bands just ragging on Christianity/Judaism, that is not really true. Especially in the wake of 9/11, a few bands have started adding anti-Islamic lyrics to their songs. The awesome "Children Of A Worthless God" by Exodus being a good case in point. (The whole song is anti-Islamic, and denounces Allah) And even long before that, Destruction specifically mentions Allah in the track "Curse The Gods". (From "Eternal Devastation") Which basically shows disgust for all organised religions, and the many prejudices and atrocities commited in the name of them. I too, am very much against all organised religion. Although i have no problem with religious people, as long as they don't use their religion as an excuse to hurt others, or try and force their views down other people's throats.

As for metal being "evil"...come on, what idiot could think "Hunting High And Low" by Stratovarius is evil? I mean for crying out loud!



I agree with what someone else said about this. By telling you that you had "nothing to fear", and that "hell wasn't a place you are going to", was using scare tactics. The implication in those statements is clearly that you would have something to fear if you rejected what you were being taught. And that hell is a bad place, but because you are being taught to believe in God, and to live by the Bible, that you do not have to fear going there. You tried to say the people around you do not apply the usual scaremongering tactics that most Christian religious organisations are known for using. But you have just proved yourself wrong by saying you were told those things by the elders who were teaching you about religion and God. They clearly do use scare tactics, just in a very devious and underhand way.

yeah and I read somewhere that one of the major classical composers who wrote church music was a closet atheist. I can't remember his name. I'd actually recommend Saint if you haven't listened to them. Yeah their Christian but like 3/4ths of their material is based on the end of the world and what not. No Bible bashing. They sound like Priest. Anyway I agree with you on the who'll Norwegian thing but to me it doesn't really matter to me what religion they are I just think that if Satan was a cow he was milked dry years ago. Don't get me wrong I love songs about Satan as much as the next guy but like I said I think a band labeling themselves as any kind of religious band is a creativity blocker. I mean look what happened to Stryper. Released an album sans religion and lost half their fanbase.

Why can Black Metal only be dedicated to Satan just because it always has been (not to mention the First Wave were just being theatrical and were LaVeyans at best)? Just because something has always been the case doesn't mean it should be. Also, rules regarding genre and subculture are complete constructs - nothing is set in stone. A few room-temperature-IQ'd purists might get their knickers in a twist but ultimately no god is going to strike any Black Metal band/musician down for following any other deity. Genres have no rules and I have at least a modicum of respect for those who break them. Not those who do it to make a point but those who do it because art and expression has no boundaries. As much as on an emotional level, I think Christian BM is daft.

That is only if you consider black metal just as another "music", not as a genre. I don't think Black Metal is only just some guitar bass and drums, it's much more than that, so lyrics aren't just random.
Venom created the word, speaking about Satan, and even if the music didn't look like Hellhammer I still consider its Black Metal, because it's more than a music.

It would probably be easier to understand speaking about Death Metal : Do you think there's a way to ecological views in Death Metal ? Save the Whales Death Metal ? No, and thankfully there is the old school spirit, the true one who's still surviving. Same for BM. I don't say all bands must be like WATAIN of DEATHSPELL OMEGA, orthodox, but they still should stay in the satanist mind, as BLASPHEMY or BEHERIT.

As a whole, I find Christian metal entirely contradictory. Metalcore can be Christian, but that was never metal in the first place - however, Christian black or death metal is inane beyond belief. Christian metal is praise for the establishment, consumerism incarnate, and is anti-intellectual to no slight degree. Because it manifests as such, regardless of whether they have grinding Suffocation-esque instrumentals under the motifs and lyrics, it is nonetheless not metal. While doom bands playing devil's advocate (ironic) as lyrically reflecting an inquisitional Christian mindset, I think that most bands are themselves non-Christian, rather espousing that lyrical fodder for a change from the metal orthodoxy than from philosophy.

(FEEL FREE TO SKIP THIS RESPONSE I OPOLOGISE FOR THE ESSAY SIZE INSERT BUT THIS SUBJECT SEES ALOT OF INTEREST AND IDEAS ON MYSELF I CONSIDER MYSELF AN EXPERT)
Personally, I think that the whole satan thing in metal is because of it's rebelious roots. look at it this way all metal can trace its roots to rock, wich can trace its roots to bues both of wich make rebelious statements and the theme never really left. Why do you think at the very begining of it all you grew your hair long as a guy? You'd be rebeling against common society who thought all males should be buzzed to the ears. Even Swing Kids in germany right before and during world war two grew their hair long as a statement against the NAZIs and their values

The same goes for religion. The idea of God whether you want it to or not always plays a part in the average life, so music tended to either support Atheism or outright Satanism. Whether or not the artists supported these faiths or not it still shocked those they were trying to rebel against, and still turned heads.

This has become increasingly prominent especially in black metal wich is why it has been described as unoriginal. This is why christian themed bands cropped up, Causing elite metalheads, satanists and religious bigots alike to disrespect them. One hates because it betrays the theme some sub genres of rock and metal have developed, and the other hates because they still hold the stereotypical image to heart and are bigoted enough not to respect something of their own faith in a classic anti christian style.

All in all music should be listened to before judged that is to say music should be listened to nuetrally and respected or disrespected because of its sound. That is where opinion comes in.

I can call myself a Christian but I do not follow the church I believe them to be hypocritical and in a word evil I also am creating my own form of religion taking the Eye for an Eye beliefs od Judaism, the ancestral worship of North Amarican and Scandanavian paganism, and the philisophical ideas of celtic druidism. I am considering calling it Ainism.

This however has no bearing on the music I listen to. I listen to music sheerly because of sound and atmosphere.

But i do hold strong to one thing:
If rock and metal is indeed the devils music then God knows satan has given more to this world than God

But then again all music is a form of spiritual and artistic expression and therefore a blessing

My point still stands. I'm well aware of the extra-musical aspects of Black Metal, but as I said, any rules regarding the music and ethos are totally constructed (i.e. we humans devised them, they weren't handed from the gods), and we should acknowledge that. This encompasses notions of the "old school spirit" as well.

And also when I talk about deviation from Satanism, I'm talking not necessarily about Christianity but about Paganism. When I romanticise about black metal I think of the genre much more in regards to Paganism than Satanism e.g. church burnings being retribution for supposedly building on pagan burial grounds rather than simply to be "evil". The pagan path is also much more a logical conclusion for BM than Satanism. You can either revere something that's a construct of Christianity (and submitting to Christian dichotomy) or you can revere something that actually pre-dates Christianity. After all, the image of Christianity's Satan is modelled on the Celtic horned god Cernunnos.

I'm going to concede that most forms of Christianity do stand largely in opposition to early black metal values (though I see Christianity is far too fragmented a religion for most people's arguments here to hold water) and most Christian BM examples seem there just to make a point that "hey, not all black metal is evil! / I'm being subversive!", but I chose to highlight the constructed nature of all values held by any subgenre or subculture to show that there's fuckall we can do about it. In the Arts, nothing is sacred. Sorry, kids!

That's very true. Our holy cows and idols are desecrated as surely as all others. And I'll admit that even I am guilty of both - shitting on other peoples' tastes and myself having sacred figures within metal (as well as other genres). But it's a vicious cycle, and if others will do it, what the fuck, right? What really pisses me off is when something as anti-consumerist as metal is contorted into something it's not; when rebellion is used by the establishment for its own ends. But, alas, as you stated, nothing is sacred.

Metal speaking of Pagan things has a name : thats Pagan, nothing else. Can't mix that with Black Metal, thats what I think...but you're free to have your own vision. I just strongly disagree.

I'm a Christian, though I used to be an atheist.

I was raised in a loosely (Irish/Polish) Catholic home. We attended church regularly but sometimes fell out of practice if it became inconvenient. It seemed to me that our attendance came more from my parents' guilt over not going. We continued until one lapse simply never ended, which coincided with me losing all interest in religion, my brother going to college, and my sister being too young to really care. We sometimes went back for holidays, but eventually that ceased, too (partly because everyone was somehow displeased with the idea of being "Christmas and Easter Catholics"). The guilt still remains. After a recent disaster, my parents suggested making a "triumphant return" to our old church. When I refused and cited my atheism, my dad tried to tell me I'm an agnostic (which he has done before when I make similar statements and at times has applied the term to himself). My sister is one of those "cool with Jesus" teenagers. She has no real faith and even mocks her more religious peers, but I guess is uncomfortable with rejecting the Lamb. My older brother has married, had a son, and moved out but still lives close to home. I have heard that he embraces religion, mostly due to his wife's influence, and I was passed over as the godfather of my nephew, apparently because I would not raise the child in the faith should the worst happen. They passed up my dad, as well, because of his lax attitude towards church-going. Despite that (which I understood and was not deeply offended by), I don't know if they actively go to church, though I assume this might be because they haven't been able to find a good one as their family gets started. I have no problem with any of my family members' religious beliefs, practiced or not, as they have the respect to leave me out of it.

As far as metal is concerned, I believe that metal as art transcends all boundaries. Metal is above all. Thus, I have no problem with Christianity in metal, as long as the band, perhaps tacitly, recognizes the superiority of metal. If the band is putting Christianity before metal, the lack of quality will be clear, as it will with any band that puts some sort of philosophy or theology before the true faith of steel. And so, I feel no need to make absurd rationalizations and qualifications or quibble about which band members were Christian. I am only offended when a band obviously is using metal as a platform for proselytism of any kind, rather than merely expressing themselves while spreading the most important evangel (...of steel). To suggest that certain elements must be kept out of metal is to suggest that metal is inherently weak and can be tainted by anything less that a lack of total devotion to the form.

Now I'm a Christian, but I found that quote about music from that website to be quite funny. The record companies are controlled by the Wicca! :O

Christian metal sucks god has no place in metal fuck off

This is stupid.

Are you denying that metal bands can branch out there lyrical content?
Thats pretty closed minded.
What about trouble? Influental, talented, good Christian band.

Because not supporting Christianity equals not branching out lyrical content, right?

Don't get me wrong, metal's anti-consumerist stance being violated annoys me too. It makes me wince all the same.

I just think, in order not to be constantly let down, uphold values which supersede notions of what certain genres of metal should be like. A genre is just a vehicle at the end of the day i.e. a means of expression. So don't expect it to indefinitely hold any ideological value. A lot of people realise this, which is why people opt for certain kinds of black metal, punk or whatever. The bands that have that something extra (musically or ideologically) that they're looking for.



Wonderfully insightful. Please learn some decorum with spelling and grammar. I shudder to think what it would be like if you became a "tyrent" [sic]. It'd be a grammatical dystopia!

I've spoken with a couple Christians about this, and they felt even Christian Metal and Rock was blasphemous, and was a tool of Satan. They felt anything that was loud and brash, like rock or metal, was meant to lead people away from God. And that Christian metal bands often lead people to do things at concerts like mosh and whatnot, and it leads to injuries, something no true Christian would do.

Ok, I am going to put up my normal anti-christian arguments.

In the bible, it mentions that a true christian can heal the sick with the touch of the hand. Well, either there are no true Christians around, or the bible is wrong. (Don't remember where I heard that, but when I heard it, it cited a scripture)

If we non-christains get "yelled" at for using the BC/AD calendar, christians can't use the days of the week (Wednesday-Odin's day, Thursday-Thor's day, Friday-Freya's day) and they can't use the months either, which are also named for pagan gods.

Finally, Christmas and Easter aren't originally Christian holidays, they are pagan holidays that Christianity piggy-backed some BS meaning to.


Ok, I'm done, those arguments always silence christians for me. Either they think I'm too big of an idiot to talk to, and they stop talking, or they actually see SOME error in their ways. Either way, they shut up.

1. Can you cite the scripture please?

2. That's just pathetic. I don't why anybody, christian or not, would yell at you for using the most commonly used calender in the world. And actually a long while ago when the pagan names of the days of the week were becoming more widely used, some Christians decided to use a different system for naming the days. Today everyone uses the pagan names for the days of the week because they became more popular.

3. Ok. let me explain this to you. Most pagan religions in the Mediterranean area had a major day of religious celebration at or following the Spring Equinox. Cybele, the Phrygian fertility goddess, had a fictional consort who was believed to have been born via a virgin birth. He was Attis, who was believed to have died and been resurrected each year during the period MAR-22 to MAR-25. Later, Christians started using the same date to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. So unlike how you said that Christians were piggy backing some BS meaning, the meaning for easter was exactly the same, except with different deities. So your right that easter was originally a pagan holiday, but Christianity did not make up a BS meaning they used the exact same theme the pagans at the time did.

Roman pagans first started a holiday called Saturnalia, celebrated between December 17th and 25th . It was a week long period of total partying and craziness. Later some christian missionaries came converting many pagans to Christianity, telling them that they could still celebrate Saturnalia as Christians. Thing is there was nothing Christian about Saturnalia, so some christian leaders decided to make the last day of the festival, December 25th, the date of Jesus's birth. So Christians started to celebrate Christmas from then on. Simple as that. You are actually sort of right that it is BS that the Christians just decided to slap the birth of Christ on some random day, finally , I dont see why the orgins of the holiday matter as much as what they become.

nice try

I understand what you are saying.

Scripture: Mark 16:18

I may be taking this COMPLETELY out of context I've done it before, but here it is if you don't have a bible handy.

"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

And my town has 600 people total, with 9 churches. I get challenged every time I try to use BCE/CE because its not widely recognized, and I get challenged every time I use AD/BC because some people, mind you they aren't adults, convict me of using Christian ideology when I'm so anti-christian in school.

Ah. But you have to read the other verses around it for it to make sense. This takes place right after Jesus was resurrected. Jesus is telling the disciples to to go out and spread the word about him. Jesus gives a series of signs that will accompany those that believe him. So the meaning of scripture is that if you believe in Jesus he will protect you.

9 churches in a town of 600 people? Damn! Theres more people that go to the school I do then live in your town apparently. I think that the people that challenge you for using the BCE/CE calender are just confused because like you said, its not widely recognized, so they dont understand it and/or are not familiar with it. Well also if you are so anti christian in school it's not very surprising that some people will tell you that.. however those people are sort of wrong because using something that was invented by Christians is not quite the same as using something christian. I hope that makes sense. For example the AD/BC calender has no ties to Christianity. So it is not Christian ideology because just because it was invented by a christian does not mean it is christian. The bible however is christian because it describes many events surrounding God and Jesus and was written by Christians. Therefore if you were reading the bible in school (which considering you seem to be very anti-christian I don't see you doing) then they would be right because then you would be reading something that contains christian ideology. So the people that are criticizing you for using the AD/BC calender are wrong. Also they aren't adults, which means they probably dont know what they are talking about.

I see that we are understanding each other a bit more now. I do tend to notice that most people who challenge and but-heads with the bible tend to be taking something or another out of context. And when I say that I am anti-christian, I mean that I don't go around preaching atheism or anything, I just mean that when someone speaks up against evolution in science class, or speaks up in history class about some miracle or another, that I try to express why what my classmate said isn't necessarily the truth.

I also use the line "If you want creation taught in regular school, I want evolution taught in Sunday School" which is a pretty dumb statement considering I don't HAVE to go to Sunday school and listen to creationism, but people who generally don't believe in evolution are forced to listen to it in public school all the time.

Yea, small town, tons of religion. Which brings me to a slightly political thought. If we all own guns, hunt, fish, ride ATVs, log, and other activities that are generallly looked down on by liberals, why do we always vote Democrat? I think it was a famous political analyst that referred to Minnesota as, Gun-Totting, Religion-Clinging democrats....? And he shrugged his shoulders.

Yes, exactly. Most people when arguing against Christians do not realize that. A lot of people like to twist the bibles words into something for their own intent, not what it was written to be.

Well, some people tend to be very opinionated about things like evolution and the bible. But what is the truth? Can anybody really say what the truth is? People from religious denominations will say that they are right, and atheists will say there is no god etc but there is really no way to know who is actually right. Good logic there.

I'm not sure that I understand that statement. Because Sunday school is at a church, of course they will only say things that pertain to their beliefs. Whereas public school is sort of an open floor in terms of religion. Of course because evolution has no ties to religion, that's why it is taught in schools instead of creationism. I think this is why creationism will never be taught in public schools.

I really don't know some peoples political motives. Some people have strange ideas about politics.

Edit your quotes people. Don't quote huge blocks of text like that.

The whole "why doesn't god answer prayers??" thing that people bring up is a bit of a moot point. Jesus's prayer to avoid crucifixion wasn't answered, he couldn't do any healings in his home town (think it was his hometown?) and so on and so forth. Indeed, unanswered prayers are a common thing for a lot of the "bible heroes".

Also: totally agree with PhOTO's post. I'd say in general, if the message is more important then the music then it's not going to be good music. Same with a lot of NSBM, for example.

I listen to quite a bit of NSBM, but only stuff with some degree of competent musicianship. I think it's pitiful when people just pick up an instrument for the simple reason of expressing a political view. I've heard some downright awful 3-chord plodders, so bad they might as well have been rapping over an electronic drumbeat.



I'm pretty sure the Christian thing to do would be to look at the bigger picture and think "what does God think about it? would Jesus see this as a valid mode of expression that can be appropriated?" rather than going with the prejudices/interpretations of other followers. As far as physical violence goes, wasn't there a time that Jesus flipped out at a temple? Someone could have got hurt there. Nobody at a concert is throwing fucking tables are they?

I often wonder exactly who they speak to when they claim stuff like this. I can imagine Maru going around at an old folks home, or some extremely hardline sort of church. I know a bunch of really devout christians (y'know, seeing as I go to a freakin' church myself) and while the older generation does express a distaste for modern christian rock, they're 80 or so years old, so it's not really all that surprising.

Seeing as Black Sabbath wrote Cristian-inspired songs (After Forever) and songs about Satan (Lord of This World), I see no problem with either.

As long as a band creates great music, then why does it really matter? Believer for example were an amazing band, Christian or not.

However, one could argue that a band that promotes violence against certain races, for example would raise too many questions. The music may be excellent, but I would not feel comfortable supporting a band that has such veiwpoints. Any CD's or merchandise I buy may indirectly finance a hate crime (a remote possibility, but possible nonetheless). It would be like listening to audio tapes of Hitler, but claiming that I do so only because I enjoy the sound of his voice, not what he is saying. I would feel like a hypocrite.

It is up to each person to decide their own comfort level when listening to music whether it's lyrics are Christian, Satanic, Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Political, or about pink bunnies. We also have to take into account how serious a band actually is. More often than not, the fans tend to be far more serious than the bands.

That is a massive misreading of what I said, and you know it.
If one is "not allowed" to use certain lyrical themes, then there obviously not branching into that area.

The only genre of anythign that I believe cnat have different lyrical themes is Black metal. Black Metal is psuedo-satanist shock music. Nothing can change this.

Agreed.

I also wonder why he thinks moshing is antichristian. Its really no different than playing football. Both can lead to injuries if approached wrong.