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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 623
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:29 pm 
 

I thought this would be a safe place to ask this as I'm a democrat and i notice many here are, and i won't pose it on facebook where I have many "friends" who are Trump supporters, many who are cops.

So, I do martial arts like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and it's one of my big passions (haven't been able to do it for a while due to covid obviously) and so this is a "macho" sport, as is MMA (Mixed Martial Arts), which draws in many cops because BJJ is helpful for police officers.

I am certainly not anti-cop, but obviously I am opposed to abuse of authority and systemic racism, and I have to bite my tongue when i see online that most of the people I do martial arts with are Trump supporters who hate liberals, and many of those I train with have law enforcement and/or military background.

My whole family on the other hand are liberal, EXCEPT for one cousin who, you guessed it...IS A COP...and he's a Trump supporter.

Our whole family is shocked by his support of Trump when his own brothers and parents and all of us are liberals.

I have heard that the military is not QUITE as rabidly republican as the police, but I still think that most of them are also republlican.

i guess some of the issue might have to do with a link tying the blue collar lifestyle more tightly with conservatism, whereas my family are mainly academics and thinkers and artists of sorts, teachers, etc., who are generally liberal, but I still don't even get wy the blue collar types are so much more likely to be republican when our tax cuts mostly benefit them and hurt the rich.


I put the question about cops in particular on google and quora said something along the lines of "police see how poorly liberalism as a system works and they get to see the abuses of the welfare state first hand" bla bla bla and also one comment that basically said "cops vote republican because democrats have a "victim mentality" and will defend anyone and everyone including the corrupt drug dealers who cops arrest for violent crimes etc." and things like "liberalism supports the idea that people can be lazy and not work for a living" which I think is bullshit.

Actually, right here is some of what I read about REPUBLICAN'S opinions on the matter--QUOTE:


"Most police officers are republicans because most democrats pander to appeasement groups and would defend just about anyone, from drug dealers to cop killers for their political agenda. Make no mistake, these politicians don’t really care for the group of people for whom they are fighting! They are using these elements in society as a shield for their political ambitions. Portraying false and exaggerated stories of cops harassing certain groups of people , using media creating a divide in the society, making it more unsafe than ever before.

Let me end with an example. Last year in Dallas, some officers were killed . What did Hillary Clinton have to say? “ It is time for us to sit down and listen to the black community and their problems and why they are weeping”. Please!, this is not about black or white, 5 police officers have been shot and killed on duty. Someone who killed them is a criminal because , they just killed someone armed and deployed by the authorities(aka government). Police officers laid down their lives and all you can think of is ‘Black and White’ politics? Just observe how insensitive it is on her part to jump on the issue as another opportunity to appease a group of people ( for whom she honestly does not care, just plays around with them)."


And on the whole "liberals are fine with people not working bullshit":

"Because cops possess common sense, believe people should attempt to better themselves, and don’t believe in welfare states developed to cultivate votes for the Democratic Party?" AND -----"I believe you should earn your keep and free hand outs that encourage you to not work vs actually going out and working and making less than being on welfare is ridiculous."



But I just don't get any of this.

Exactly WHICH democrats believe people shouldn't have to work for a living and should be permitted to have welfare unless they are in DIRE? And really, what person wants to be on welfare by choice? It offers so little, but the republicans act like there are really TONS of people out there CHOOSING to be on welfare and not work at all, but is that really the case?

Why does believing certain people should be allowed a little help from some food stamps until they get on their feet, after which they should be removed from assistance once they make a certain income, mean that you can't support a tough stance on crime?

And who are these liberals who will "support anyone and everyone"?


I don't believe in people being arrested for drugs and I don't believe in supporting jack booted thug cops who push around minorities, but at the same time I don't believe we should defund all the police forces like some do, I just think we need POLICE REFORM, so cops focus on VIOLENT CRIME and not petty crimes.

So...I made this a long rant which I didn't want to so sorry about that....but why do you guys think all the jocks I do martial arts with and all the cops and most of the military are republicans and Trump supporters to the extent that even my own cousin who is a cop is the only one in our family to be a republican and even vote for Trump?


Do you guys think it's got to do with the traditional "tough guy" schtick that republicans have somehow inherently and do you guys really think that liberals have a "victim mentality" where we'll defend anyone and everyone that the cops arrest?

Cause I can't make heads or tails of why a person can't be a cop, in the military or a "jock" and still vote blue.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 323
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:58 pm 
 

I feel like it's absolutely the "tough guy" image. The right and alt-right is extremely adept at hurling insults and "winning arguments" just by beating the other party into submission verbally and never really going after any of said party's ideas with a shred of information or intelligence. The left, generally, is more reserved and "passive", so I'd imagine cops, jocks, whatever people you mentioned gravitate toward that side because they want to feel like big men and be able to throw terms like "libtard" and "SJW" around. The right/alt-right offers easy and understandable answers as to why angry white men don't perpetually get their way in the world, mostly in the form of conspiracy theories and colorful derogatory terms for left-wingers. So jocks and cops (who probably joined the police force because they felt weak and wanted to have power trips on honest citizens in the first place) naturally would want to join that human herd, because it's one more group of people that they get to bully. Also, the left has been infested with "defund the police" rhetoric recently, and has vilified any police officer who commits violence against another race. Of course cops don't want to vote for that; why would they fight a system that works (too well) for them?

It's quite sad when you think about it.

Interesting that you brought up the military, because my high school world history teacher was a Iraq veteran and he wasn't liberal in the truest sense, but he definitely wasn't a conservative asshole. He repeatedly stressed that you should NOT join the military because it's nothing like the glorious service that it's made out to be, yet people in his class still walked out with intentions to join the military and JROTC. Generally these people were the ones who got the lowest grades in his class.

So I think that the groups of people who you mentioned just want to take the easy way out and not educate themselves about things because they fear that there might be something in what the left says, and that there's a reason why the world doesn't revolve around them.
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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 623
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 am 
 

Yeah, I think you are right about a lot of what you are saying, but as far as why EVERYONE who becomes a cop is a republican, even at the expense of supporting Trump, i think it must somehow go deeper.

As mentioned, someone in my family is a cop and Trump supporter even despite NO ONE else in the family, including his 2 brothers and his parents being liberals, and that is weird to me.

And then I know a guy who is a cop who is an honestly GREAT person who teaches self defense and rape defense to women and yet he supports Trump which is straight up bizarre to me since we can be pretty sure Trump has probably raped a woman or two in his life, and is just a straight up criminal himself.

I know this cop is a very admirable and good person, and yet he aligns with an evil wanna be dictator in Trump, but he couldn't be more different from Trump.

I just don't understand why some people who you would think wouldn't be Trump supporters, particularly cops, but also the other types I mentioned, would still stand by him and hurl rhetoric at the democrats.

Not that democrats are always right, far from it, but I think they are the lesser of two evils right now by far, but something about police work in particular seems to have support for any and all republicans in power as a pre-requisite no matter what and i just don't know why.

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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1578
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 am 
 

In general it is quite clear that people choose political alliances based on what they percieve to be most positive for themselves. Poorer people are generally economically left wing. Rich people are more generally economically right wing. If one is involved in the military or the police you'd probably vote for the alternative that wants to give more money to your line of work (or as the case was in Sweden for amny years - the party that wanted less budget cuts). My teacher colleagues often seem to vote based on what the percieve to be the best alternative for schools in the country etc.

I dont know much about the US political climate but if one side is supporting anti-police demonstrations (even though one might find the reason for it to be positive) I doubt many policemen who feel the hate of the large crowds are inclined to side with them once they get off work and put on their street clothes.

Then there are regional and family differences and traditions. Quite obviously Sweden is way more left leaning than the US for example. We still have the left/right divide but our middle/center is way to the left compared to the middle/center in the US.

To that there are traditions withing a given work force. At my old job all the old timers were voting for the social democrats because thats what people in this line of work had voted for for at least 50 years. It was percieved as that was the best alternative for people in this line of work (with people aging and new people coming in I know this has changed - even though I dont work there anymore).

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cdedsml
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Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:46 am
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:06 am 
 

A big part is just institutions taking care of themselves. The institutions of the police and military teach their members to believe in far right views as those are the views which legitimize those institutions taking so much power and resources from the rest of society and using it against the people they are ostensibly supposed to serve/protect. They may claim to be non-political organizations, but the idea that they ever could be is a utopian fairytale.
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OzzyApu
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:20 am 
 

Having been in the army (2007-2015) I would say it was pretty conservative by nature. The institution of the military was geared toward (what they considered) patriotism, fidelity, service and it's just something you roll with as part of your duty. At the time it promoted values that would be seen as traditional and family-based. There were plenty of liberal, left, or democratic soldiers but I did notice around the time of the Obama / McCain election that a sizable amount of people were conservative, republican, and on the right. They largely believed that only Republican candidates / presidents would support the military, which in turn they believed meant more money for income, more funding for their units, and increased worthwhileness for being in the service.

As time went on during the Obama administration it got laxer when it came to strictly adhering to one side and more options were available for soldiers that didn't fit that one mold. You saw COs / NCOs promoting development without the need for the traditional career paths, even though you still might've wanted to do "certain life choices" to make the most out of your time in uniform and take advantage of what was offered.

I'll tell you straight up, and this probably hasn't changed, that most soldiers who enlist do it for tuition money / money in general. They asked this when I first enlisted and it was incredibly widespread regardless of ideology.
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Apteronotus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 am
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:10 am 
 

In short, views on authority correlate strongly with political views. There is some interesting political psychology research on this. I imagine if you were to dig deeper the worldview questions that differentiate between Republicans and Democrats you could also pick up on threads of ideas that help explain jock/mma types trending that way as well.

Here are some very different sources: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/02/studies-conservatives-are-from-mars-liberals-are-from-venus/252416/; https://www.cato.org/policing-in-america/chapter-3/respect-for-authority.
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last_eulogy
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
Posts: 288
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:24 am 
 

eh
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TheFinalSleep
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:49 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:38 pm 
 

As someone who has been in the military for almost 20 years now (three different branches, two different countries) I can tell you that the vast majority of people I've met/worked with don't give two shits about politics. They joined for many other reasons such as work, wages, benefits, education, better life, etc. Serving tends to do that to people; you get to the point where politics don't matter anymore because all sides are equally self-serving. 'What/how- are-these-elected-idiots-going-to-effect-my-job?' becomes much more of a concern.

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last_eulogy
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
Posts: 288
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:54 pm 
 

eh
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TheFinalSleep
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:49 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:17 pm 
 

I get that shit from officers from time to time as well. It stops when I explain my education background (BA in Poli Sci and a BA in English, plus a network administrator cert in IT- and I'm currently working on my Masters in Poli Sci). 'Just shut the fuck up, sir.'

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last_eulogy
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:30 pm 
 

eh
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From_Wisdom_To_Mabt
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 4:04 am
Posts: 107
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:53 pm 
 

TheFinalSleep wrote:
I get that shit from officers from time to time as well. It stops when I explain my education background (BA in Poli Sci and a BA in English, plus a network administrator cert in IT- and I'm currently working on my Masters in Poli Sci). 'Just shut the fuck up, sir.'


https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/

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last_eulogy
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
Posts: 288
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:05 pm 
 

From_Wisdom_To_Mabt wrote:
TheFinalSleep wrote:
I get that shit from officers from time to time as well. It stops when I explain my education background (BA in Poli Sci and a BA in English, plus a network administrator cert in IT- and I'm currently working on my Masters in Poli Sci). 'Just shut the fuck up, sir.'


https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/


Definitely not trying to look to smart. Officers generally look down on enlisted military personnel. Stop being a douche. Your desperate cry for attention has gone unheard.
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From_Wisdom_To_Mabt
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 4:04 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:11 pm 
 

last_eulogy wrote:
From_Wisdom_To_Mabt wrote:
TheFinalSleep wrote:
I get that shit from officers from time to time as well. It stops when I explain my education background (BA in Poli Sci and a BA in English, plus a network administrator cert in IT- and I'm currently working on my Masters in Poli Sci). 'Just shut the fuck up, sir.'


https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/


Definitely not trying to look to smart. Officers generally look down on enlisted military personnel. Stop being a douche. Your desperate cry for attention has gone unheard.


Calm down.

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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:04 pm 
 

Lots of reasons, but a few important things to look at.

For one, this book does a great job talking about this sort of issue in a broader sense. Basically, politics back in the 60's/70's/80's wasn't seen as a part of your identity, but it now is. A great example cited in the book is simply looking at how more than 2/3rds of Whole Foods are located in liberal districts and about an equal amount or more of Cracker Barrels are located in republican districts. In other words, if you go to Cracker Barrel more than Whole Foods, I can guess with about a 80-90% certainty you're a republican and not a democrat. Something that is not even connected to politics can be correlated to your political identity.

Naturally, this is also associated with rural vs urban living. People who live in the urban centers vote more liberally than rural areas, however, this is only a recent phenomenon. The book has a great graphic to show the formation of this trend and how it wasn't really like this back in the day and is now.

Mixing identity with politics creates a toxic environment that makes rational discussion or thought about politics close to impossible. For example, when someone who doesn't think about politics much is told about a specific policy, they are more often than not will approach an idea thinking "well... whats in it for me?". However, someone who is deep into politics has a tendency to not think about in that way- instead they'll think about what their opinion on that policy says about them.

Here's an interesting study they cite in the book, and I might get some of it wrong because I'm thinking it up off the top of my head and don't have the book in front of me:

You give a test that has a single math problem to two groups of people- one group is highly politically minded and the other isn't. The result is that one group ends up solving the problem with about as many people getting the correct answer as the other group.

Now make two more groups, of the same types, and give them the same math problem with a twist- make it political. In other words, in the first test, you're testing strictly on the math, but in the second test, you're testing on the math in the context of politics. The result shows that the politically minded people did worse on the test all of the sudden, especially if the correct answer went against their political views (I believe this was tested for both republicans and democrats, with the same result).

Most people have a shallow understanding of the issues that directly affect them, but the problem is that those who consistently keep track of politics can often be more illogical and not less. And, this happens because the logic switches from "what will this policy do for me" to "what does supporting/not supporting this policy say about me?"

So, to answer your question, I think the reason a lot of very masculine people align with conservatives is because they want to be aligned with other highly masculine people, and this is even more true the more rural you get ("I'm an Alpha" or whatever). This applies for people in the military or people that are police officers. It's not about policies, it's about identity.
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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:16 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Lots of reasons, but a few important things to look at.

For one, this book does a great job talking about this sort of issue in a broader sense. Basically, politics back in the 60's/70's/80's wasn't seen as a part of your identity, but it now is. A great example cited in the book is simply looking at how more than 2/3rds of Whole Foods are located in liberal districts and about an equal amount or more of Cracker Barrels are located in republican districts. In other words, if you go to Cracker Barrel more than Whole Foods, I can guess with about a 80-90% certainty you're a republican and not a democrat. Something that is not even connected to politics can be correlated to your political identity.

Naturally, this is also associated with rural vs urban living. People who live in the urban centers vote more liberally than rural areas, however, this is only a recent phenomenon. The book has a great graphic to show the formation of this trend and how it wasn't really like this back in the day and is now.

Mixing identity with politics creates a toxic environment that makes rational discussion or thought about politics close to impossible. For example, when someone who doesn't think about politics much is told about a specific policy, they are more often than not will approach an idea thinking "well... whats in it for me?". However, someone who is deep into politics has a tendency to not think about in that way- instead they'll think about what their opinion on that policy says about them.

Here's an interesting study they cite in the book, and I might get some of it wrong because I'm thinking it up off the top of my head and don't have the book in front of me:

You give a test that has a single math problem to two groups of people- one group is highly politically minded and the other isn't. The result is that one group ends up solving the problem with about as many people getting the correct answer as the other group.

Now make two more groups, of the same types, and give them the same math problem with a twist- make it political. In other words, in the first test, you're testing strictly on the math, but in the second test, you're testing on the math in the context of politics. The result shows that the politically minded people did worse on the test all of the sudden, especially if the correct answer went against their political views (I believe this was tested for both republicans and democrats, with the same result).

Most people have a shallow understanding of the issues that directly affect them, but the problem is that those who consistently keep track of politics can often be more illogical and not less. And, this happens because the logic switches from "what will this policy do for me" to "what does supporting/not supporting this policy say about me?"

So, to answer your question, I think the reason a lot of very masculine people align with conservatives is because they want to be aligned with other highly masculine people, and this is even more true the more rural you get ("I'm an Alpha" or whatever). This applies for people in the military or people that are police officers. It's not about policies, it's about identity.



Interesting.

What's also interesting is that you approached the questions of "what will this policy do for me" and "what does supporting/not supporting it say about about me" but NOT "what will this policy do for other people or other people like me?"

I feel that the latter question should be of most importance.

I think you are right about the "alpha" attitude, and it bugs me to no end because, as mentioned, i am very into the world of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, MMA and martial arts and so I'll know these people for the rest of my life, so while some people who are democrats and dislike Trump will just seperate themselves from those like that, I can't do that and I need to get along with these people so I avoid ever discussing politics with them, and so far it works well because i just avoid political discussions both online and in person with these people but inevitably I have to listen to them talk shit constantly about liberals and feel pissed off and bite my tongue and then go see my family who talks shit about republicans and I'm stuck in the middle just wanting to get along with everyone but still hoping to god that Trump doesn't get re-elected.

And I read a short online discussion about the psychology of liberals vs republicans which basically stated that if you core values have more to do with freedom of expression and individuality then you'll probably be a liberal (which is one big reason I am and one reason I think many metal heads and artists are liberals).....whereas if you core values have more to do with security, predictability and valuing authority then you'll be republican.

So obviously, martial arts have to do with self defense which has to do with security and crosses easily into the territory of police and military, but i am very interested in self defense even despite being a liberal and i don't think the 2 are mutually exclusive.

It's also interesting to note that in martial arts, and i'm sure the military and the police, there's a term called "coachability".

"Coachability" is often seen as the ability to simply listen to whatever your coach tells you without question and follow his instructions when it comes to your training and assume he knows what is best for you, and the thing is, if you choose a good sports coach/martial arts instructor or even military or law enforcement instructor chances are they DO often know what's best for your training and often you should listen, and in my BJJ training over the years I have failed to act in my own best interest at times by not following my coach's instructions when really i should have.

Problem for me is that I often have a big problem with authority, even if those authority figures are friends, at times if they get too militant with their instructions I have a natural tendency to rebel and question why they are asking me to do something, which is considered a big problem because if you want to succeed in a group endeavor such as a martial arts team, police force or military the absolute LAST thing anyone wants is you questioning your team leader's authority.

When it comes to military or police I can only assume this could cost lives, so having too much of an authority problem or individual need for freedom or expression could cause real casualties, and this is probably I think why police and military actively look for and attract the sorts who will not question authority in the first place, and the party that probably aligns more closely with that is the republican party.

But when you go into other avenues of life like the arts or any number of other areas, not questioning what you are being told enough can lead to either being miserable and/or becoming some kind of drone without any true sense of self, so it's a tough balancing act.

And then when you come back to the "alpha" mentality, I actually think that doing what others say without question is ANYTHING BUT an alpha-trait. Conformity does NOT seem very "alpha-male" to me.

I could never ever have been in the military with my personal nature, but I have a huge admiration for anyone who has been able to pull it off.

I often think that such rigid training would have had a great impact on my personality and made me a harder worker, but then I wonder if it would have destroyed my sense of individuality, which I prize very highly.

Do you guys think that most metalheads and metal musicians, as well as other sorts of musicians in general, not just on the this board but elsewhere, are more likely to be liberal/left leaning than right?

I know this board has many left-leaning people, but I have seen right wing metal heads elsewhere.

I think punk rock would even more be leftward leaning.

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Gameofmetal
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:57 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:49 pm 
 

Police and military are highly hierarchical and at all levels offer some level of authority compared to a civilian. The right has always been about hierarchy and authority, fascism is the ultimate fetishization of both. Both also tend to be considered very masculine jobs and line up with traditionally masculine lines of work. The right is very much about traditionally masculine vs. feminine roles.

And of course Republicans are only fiscally conservative when it comes to funding things that aren't the military or police.

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Five_Nails
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:34 pm
Posts: 667
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:16 pm 
 

I loved what Unorthodox had to say. Measured and even, it makes for some discussion here while Ill-Starred Son is trying to find that sort of discussion rather than simply another side-driven fight.

Then Gameofmetal comes in with his point. This is the uselessness that happens all-too-often on these forums and why usually I stay out.

Here though, fuck it, I'll say my piece.

When it comes to the notion mentioned above about "freedom of expression and individuality" being more liberal leaning while "hierarchical" notions are considered solely in the right-wing camp, it's surely obvious in some places yet at the same time this entirely freely expressed and individualistic music that we enjoy (or may as well considering the forums for which we're on) still ends up divided, delineated, described, defined, and identified with thickly settled systems of categorization. Hierarchical notions of guilt and privilege, reaction and oppression are also obvious when radicals start talking. I understand metal is not as hierarchical as it is hazarding a chronological system to get bearings on an amorphous and current form, yet the extremity expressed in the later definitions and expansions with which the categorizations have erupted show that the line gets tougher to define the longer you go on and for all we know Slipknot and Korn will be metal after most of us are gone. Are we hard-liners to dis-include those bands now? Am I backward for opposing that notion in 2020?

This is a website that, at least a decade ago, was "too liberal" with its delineations, categorizations, and definitions of metal to the point that it had a large purge of bands. I think that's an interesting concept worthy of discussion considering the radicalism offered by the politicals on the forums here. The inclusion vs deletion notion finds itself in an interesting spot here considering the hard-line opinions offered on these forums.

I'd rather ride the fence in plenty of places until someone shakes it too much and I'll think about lashing at them. While my professional life is "I have no opinion" and my political leanings are "balance my ticket", the larger society will do what it does while I will do what I need to make my keep.

It was interesting that the mention of identity with politics was met with a "we" vs "me" situation. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

For me, it is what the government will do for me because it's better than what it's likely to do to me. I've done enough for my country by buying in, and continually paying that back with a low-wage job due to an unworkable system while having plenty of dead ancestors who now aren't good enough according to hard-liners who want me to pay for a slavery that my family never engaged in but also died to abolish. I'm not guilty to believe that I should keep what's mine, I'm sick of the fucking pseudo-historical arguments that name an entire country for personal histories of those damned while leaving out personal histories in order to make up for the country's damning history. Do we all have to give a family tree to each other before we say "hi" just to make sure we know who is guilty to who for which slight? That's some of what I meant by the left-leaning ridiculousness and hierarchical notions because they love to play the victim while abusing others while the right loves to abuse others while playing the victim. It's almost like they're two sides to the same coin :eek: .

There are endless people protesting, burning, fighting, shooting, looting, jackbooting that are thinking about themselves as well right now. Ready to rip what they can from others and anxious about how they will fare through this massive shake-up happening across the country.

I will not engage!

Gasses that are outlawed in war are used in civil unrest, weapons of war are banned to defend a home or business against people bent on destabilizing the country while every side is trying to start a war. We have two parties that both deem our next Presidential election corrupt and null before the first ballot is cast. "Wrong side of history" is what plenty are worried about to the point now it's the latest advertising agenda while far more are worried about "how can I afford [X]" when the majority of the country is unemployed and neither party has a solution available. I have no guilt about worrying about mine and my few, just anxiety about when the interesting parts of history hit us again and when I'll either be burned out or taxed out of where I am because of this latest bout of unrest solely for not profiting from my "privilege" of naming dead ancestors who never made it rich on something they never engaged in because they were expendable second-class citizens in the first place.

While hard-liners on this board rummage for gotchas (funny enough that word wasn't automatically underlined by my spellcheck) in plenty of places, the calls to action keep trying to define, categorize, and divide people while a definition of either side's viewpoint becomes murkier by the minute. Somehow nothing more has changed except how many more are willing to harm others in the street in absolute spite of the fact that we're in the middle of a fucking pandemic. Everyone's making it all worse, deservedly so.

Like my dad said as I was a kid, "stupid people die". Sometimes I really think that should be the way, especially when I see the second floor of where I work where far too many have outlived their minds. Outliving your mind is a worse fate than over-living your intelligence. Let the stupid slaughter each other, it would be a better fate if it didn't also create notions of martyrdom for more stupidity to flow.

There's some status quo I'd like to see kept, there are pieces of society that should burn, luckily it seems to me the ones out there fighting each other are where they should be. I can't help but feel it's better to let these radicals come out of their computer-cages and tear each other apart. Maybe if it keeps happening in smaller pockets the least crazy will will out.

The post's title was definitely a good hook, a way to draw out people from sides that could end up fighting things out. We'll see who takes the bait. Hopefully it remains a discussion rather than a circlejerk or flame war.

With this all going on, as the incensed step into their march, I'll just kick it at my Winchester upon Stratford (hoping I can keep affording it in a year) with Ozzy and Iommi and wait for all of this to blow over.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10032
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:50 am 
 

Toxic masculinity is certainly a common denominator. Fetishizing authoritarian force is another, though that's also part of toxic masculinity.


Five_Nails wrote:
I understand metal is not as hierarchical as it is hazarding a chronological system to get bearings on an amorphous and current form, yet the extremity expressed in the later definitions and expansions with which the categorizations have erupted show that the line gets tougher to define the longer you go on and for all we know Slipknot and Korn will be metal after most of us are gone. Are we hard-liners to dis-include those bands now? Am I backward for opposing that notion in 2020?

This is a website that, at least a decade ago, was "too liberal" with its delineations, categorizations, and definitions of metal to the point that it had a large purge of bands. I think that's an interesting concept worthy of discussion considering the radicalism offered by the politicals on the forums here. The inclusion vs deletion notion finds itself in an interesting spot here considering the hard-line opinions offered on these forums.

............................................

My dude are you seriously politicizing the exclusion of Korn from this website? Are you for real right now?
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:01 am 
 

Morrigan, and any other Canadian here, could you tell me what the general perception of law enforcement is in your country? I'm completely unaware of any hard numbers, but it definitely seems to me like Canadian police are infinitely more level headed and less prone to shooting people than American police are.
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Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

Blacksoul Seraphim Gothic Doom Metal
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Five_Nails
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:34 pm
Posts: 667
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:07 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Toxic masculinity is certainly a common denominator. Fetishizing authoritarian force is another, though that's also part of toxic masculinity.


Five_Nails wrote:
I understand metal is not as hierarchical as it is hazarding a chronological system to get bearings on an amorphous and current form, yet the extremity expressed in the later definitions and expansions with which the categorizations have erupted show that the line gets tougher to define the longer you go on and for all we know Slipknot and Korn will be metal after most of us are gone. Are we hard-liners to dis-include those bands now? Am I backward for opposing that notion in 2020?

This is a website that, at least a decade ago, was "too liberal" with its delineations, categorizations, and definitions of metal to the point that it had a large purge of bands. I think that's an interesting concept worthy of discussion considering the radicalism offered by the politicals on the forums here. The inclusion vs deletion notion finds itself in an interesting spot here considering the hard-line opinions offered on these forums.

............................................

My dude are you seriously politicizing the exclusion of Korn from this website? Are you for real right now?


Now you get the absurdity of politics. Thanks for not reading.

M'orrigan :-P Am I a toxic male despite the fact that if you look up my username it links to nail salons across the world?

Spoiler: show
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I'm here in a blue state stuck between surviving "status quo" or surviving "let it burn" and obviously "feel the Bern" didn't work out for the Democrats despite how well Bernie was doing in the early primaries this year. The Iowa compunction screwed Bernie along with a media blitz fearing his chance of taxing those media giants that push the Democrats, much like how the RNC screwed Ron Paul back in 2012 when they changed the delegate system to keep him out at the last minute because he wanted to get us out of the unnecessary wars. These parties are absurd and I'm the asshole in any conversation because I would rather a third party or many parties that can express the views of, you know, segments of nearly 300,000,000 people rather than the kowtowing to which douche could have a chance. I'm an asshole to the left because I'm not left enough, to the right because I'm not right enough, not smart enough to shut my mouth when I have a few brews in me and am sick of the endless delineating line between the one or the other when we have hundreds of millions that will be governed but it only comes down to two choices for head of state and somehow that makes us twice as good as China when this country is still at war with fucking Afghanistan.

So yeah, I'm sick of seeing a forum that's supposed to be a bit of fun chatter off-beat from the main discussion that is about a lesser listened to type of music end up commandeered by politicals who endlessly try to take the world over and push their agendas as though they're changing hearts and minds in this little pillbox. U.S. elections are contentious, this one is getting more so by the day and the people involved here aren't changing a damn fucking thing!

Hence the absurdity of politics, especially on an obscure metal forum where while good discussion is fantastic, political posturing is the essence of inanity.
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AddWittyUsername
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:40 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:25 am 
 

Subrick wrote:
Morrigan, and any other Canadian here, could you tell me what the general perception of law enforcement is in your country? I'm completely unaware of any hard numbers, but it definitely seems to me like Canadian police are infinitely more level headed and less prone to shooting people than American police are.

Not Canadian, but the Canadian police is no stranger to racially-motivated lethal abuse of authority either. See e.g. "starlight tours".

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8336
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:47 am 
 

AddWittyUsername wrote:
Subrick wrote:
Morrigan, and any other Canadian here, could you tell me what the general perception of law enforcement is in your country? I'm completely unaware of any hard numbers, but it definitely seems to me like Canadian police are infinitely more level headed and less prone to shooting people than American police are.

Not Canadian, but the Canadian police is no stranger to racially-motivated lethal abuse of authority either. See e.g. "starlight tours".

Sickening stuff...

Speaking of police brutality in countries other than USA, there was an incident recently (here in Finland) where a group of police officers and security wardens held down and repeatedly beat an arrested man in a jail cell. The man apparently stopped breathing due to the beating, and was successfully resuscitated by the cops on the spot. It was caught on surveillance cameras. This kind of thing is anecdotally known to happen to drug addicts and drunks that get arrested by the police, especially ones that act belligerent. Normally they're savvy enough to conduct the beatings somewhere where there aren't cameras, so they can claim the victim fell in the stairs or whatever.
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last_eulogy
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
Posts: 288
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:12 am 
 

Have you ever read about the Stanford Prison Experiment? It took a group of volunteers at Stanford University and put them into a prison type environment. They just let the entire thing play out to see what would happen. Although some small directions were given, such as on rewards for good prisoners and punishing the bad. At the flip of a coin, half were guards and half were prisoners. The guards started psychologically torturing the inmates. Some of the inmates used their mattresses to block the window to their cell. One student after 30+ hours started screaming and yelling. Half of the students quit the experiment early on and the entire experiment was scrapped after 6 days. Every single one of the people involved in the experiment, were just students from the school. https://news.stanford.edu/pr/97/970108prisonexp.html
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Gravetemplar
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 1583
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:17 am 
 

last_eulogy wrote:
Have you ever read about the Stanford Prison Experiment? It took a group of volunteers at Stanford University and put them into a prison type environment. They just let the entire thing play out to see what would happen. Although some small directions were given, such as on rewards for good prisoners and punishing the bad. At the flip of a coin, half were guards and half were prisoners. The guards started psychologically torturing the inmates. Some of the inmates used their mattresses to block the window to their cell. One student after 30+ hours started screaming and yelling. Half of the students quit the experiment early on and the entire experiment was scrapped after 6 days. Every single one of the people involved in the experiment, were just students from the school. https://news.stanford.edu/pr/97/970108prisonexp.html

To be fair, the Stanford Prison Experiment lacked any scientific rigour and has never been successfully replicated anywhere else.

Quote:
"The guards knew what results the experiment was supposed to produce ... far from reacting spontaneously to this pathogenic social environment, the guards were given clear instructions for how to create it ... the experimenters intervened directly in the experiment, either to give precise instructions, to recall the purposes of the experiment, or to set a general direction ... in order to get their full participation, Zimbardo intended to make the guards believe that they were his research assistants."

Thibault Le Texier, "Debunking the Stanford Prison Experiment." American Psychologist, Vol 74(7), Oct 2019, 823-839dx.doi.org/10.1037/amp0000401

An interesting article on the subject:

https://gen.medium.com/the-lifespan-of- ... 69212b1f62

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oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 5194
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:12 pm 
 

AddWittyUsername wrote:
Subrick wrote:
Morrigan, and any other Canadian here, could you tell me what the general perception of law enforcement is in your country? I'm completely unaware of any hard numbers, but it definitely seems to me like Canadian police are infinitely more level headed and less prone to shooting people than American police are.

Not Canadian, but the Canadian police is no stranger to racially-motivated lethal abuse of authority either. See e.g. "starlight tours".

We in Germany have our share of racial abuse/profiling of minorities by the police as well. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-struggles-to-face-its-own-police-racism/a-53695640.

Unorthodox wrote:
For one, this book does a great job talking about this sort of issue in a broader sense. Basically, politics back in the 60's/70's/80's wasn't seen as a part of your identity, but it now is.

Thanks for the book reference.

Unorthodox wrote:
Mixing identity with politics creates a toxic environment that makes rational discussion or thought about politics close to impossible. For example, when someone who doesn't think about politics much is told about a specific policy, they are more often than not will approach an idea thinking "well... whats in it for me?". However, someone who is deep into politics has a tendency to not think about in that way- instead they'll think about what their opinion on that policy says about them.

Which makes it easier for those conservative movements and more difficult for those on the left. Add immediate reward as an expectation to it and things reach the point of being somewhat nasty. The idea of having the cake and not being able to eat it, is something that fuels this conflict or separation as well.

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I thought this would be a safe place to ask this as I'm a democrat and i notice many here are, and i won't pose it on facebook where I have many "friends" who are Trump supporters, many who are cops.

Why should a lefty join the police force or the military? Maybe if this person is a nihilist or lacks the a certain willingness to back up his or her moral compass with proper (left) action on the ground, then such a thing can be imagined. Yet, when I look at myself and see what the cops do and how they act, then it is something I cannot identify myself with nor could I force myself to do so. At least not in the current environment. Should society take a good step further down into fascism, then who knows what people of a certain political spectrum would be forced to so; but I am wandering off.
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My website which contains reviews as well as interviews:
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Some analysis on the metal scene (data taken from the Metal Archives):
http://oneyoudontknow.com

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Gameofmetal
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:57 pm
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:20 pm 
 

Five Nails hitting us with some of the most longwinded faux rational nihilism Ive ever seen. I'm impressed, but it's a wild clusterfuck of confused thoughts blended with a general disconnect from reality. Add a little conspiratorial thinking for good measure.

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