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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5398
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 7:25 pm 
 

NOTE: This forum is NOT for asking about whether a certain band is acceptable or not. Initial assessment of bands is what the band queue is for. This forum is for appeals to/questions about rejections/deletions/blacklistings only. Don't try to cut in line. We don't do "pre-checks", so don't bother asking. If you feel you have to ask here, perhaps it's better not to submit at all.

- Before asking anything here, make sure you read our rules.

- Before asking why a band was rejected/deleted/blacklisted, >>>use the search function<<< to see if the reasons of the deletion can be found. It's also strongly recommended that you search our old archive of band appeals for your answer beforehand. You can find those archives HERE and HERE.

Welcome!

So your band submission was rejected, or you think a band was unfairly deleted or blacklisted and you want to appeal that decision? Well, you've come to the right place! Welcome to the Band Appeals forum!

The way this forum works is simple. Each band brought up here gets its own thread. In that thread, people are free to (politely) make the case for why we should reverse our decision to reject/delete/blacklist that band. A moderator will respond with our new decision - whether to whitelist the band so it can be resubmitted, or to maintain the rejection/deletion/blacklisting of the band. Once a decision is rendered, it is FINAL until or if the band releases a new album, or new evidence comes up that shows it may qualify as acceptable under our rules. At that point in time, we may revisit the band. Bands that have had a new decision rendered will show a checkmark next to the thread: (Image) are for appeals that have been approved; (Image) are for appeals that have been denied; and, (Image) are for appeals that need more information/evidence.

IMPORTANT NOTE: An approved appeal does not mean a band will be added to MA. It only means you can resubmit it.

View this example thread
This example is fake, for a hypothetical band named "Example Band". Let it act as a loose guide.

In simple terms:
> Search this forum for the band that you want to bring up and feel was wrongly rejected/deleted/blacklisted.
> If you find a thread for the band, make a post (and follow our rules below) ONLY if the band has released new material/material not previously addressed.
> If you do not find a thread on the band, create a new one (and follow our rules below) and wait for the moderators to respond.
> Once the moderators have responded with a decision, respect that decision and move on. DO NOT FIGHT US!
> Keep all discussion about the band to a single thread on the band.


Rules

Before posting, ask yourself these questions:

1) Did you read all the site rules?
2) Does the band have a valid album out? (See here for what we define as a valid release.)
3) Is the band's release already out/available as of the date of your posting?
4) Do you have evidence (see below) that you can provide to us of an already released valid metal album?

If you answer NO to any of the above questions, then you can stop right there, as there are no ways to appeal this.

1. One Topic per Band. NO Duplicates. NO Spamming.

We only want one thread dedicated to each band. To understand what we mean by this, please see our example thread. It is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY that you SEARCH THE FORUM before creating a new thread; you can do this either by searching using the link at the top of the page, the "Search this forum..." search box at the top right of this forum, OR by choosing to sort the forum alphabetically (at the bottom of the page, choose "Sort by: Subject" and click "Go"). These threads should have straightforward titles, i.e. just the band name. Not stuff like "about a band" or "WHERE THE FUCK IS PRAYING MANTIS."

DO NOT make duplicate threads for bands that already have threads! If you're found to have made a duplicate thread, it will be locked with a link indicating where to find the original thread on that band. If the band you're appealing has the same name as a band already listed here, but is not the same band, we STRONGLY encourage you to provide the band's country in the thread title with the band name (eg. "Skulldozer (CAN)" or "Skulldozer (Canada)" for Skulldozer from Canada). In fact, that's probably a good practice for titling threads in general anyway.

Also, please DO NOT spam this forum with dozens of bands you want to appeal at once. I'm looking at you Guy Who Wants To Appeal 100 Bands Right Away. If you want to appeal more than one band, we ask that you appeal no more than a few per week. Use your discretion, but respect the fact that we do not want to be overwhelmed by numerous appeals by the same person at the same time.

2. Provide Evidence. The Band MUST have a Valid Metal Album.

When you bring up a band up for appeal, it's your task to provide us with evidence.

You can show us that the album is metal by providing a link to multiple song samples from the album. Usually this means providing links to tracks on YouTube, or a band's Bandcamp/Soundcloud, or MP3s uploaded somewhere. The samples ought to be from the album!

You can show us that the album was publicly released and distributed by providing us with proof that members of the public can or could have gotten a hold of the album:

  • For physical releases, this can be anything from photos of the album (preferably of multiple copies, we recommend using a site like imgur), to links to a distro that's distributing it, to mentions of the album being sold or given away at gigs. We do not care if the album was for sale or available for free. In cases of bands that predate the Internet, we'll sometimes also accept reviews from reputable sources as evidence, too.

  • For digital releases, it must be available as a standalone band-sanctioned download. Good sources for this include Bandcamp, the iTunes and Amazon stores, CDBaby, Jamendo, etc. and links to downloads given through official sources. Unacceptable sources include strictly streaming services (YouTube, Myspace, etc.), streaming services without standalone downloads (Spotify, etc.), and P2P software (Soulseek, etc.).

For a band to get added to MA, we require that it has already released and distributed a predominantly heavy metal album. That metal album must be:
- finished, and thus the final version of the album. Unfinished recordings, inalienable bonus content, teasers and samplers are not acceptable.
- official, or in other words, clearly sanctioned or authorized by the band or its agent. We do not accept bootleg albums or fan-made recordings.
- mostly original work, in that the album is not made up of covers or songs previously released by another band or former version of the band.
- available to the public, which means that it must have been released and distributed to a public audience (whether at gigs, distros, through online distributors, etc.).

We DO NOT accept upcoming albums for bands not yet on MA. And if the release was only made available to a select few friends or is made prohibitively difficult to acquire publicly (eg. selling an album on Bandcamp for $666) you can forget it. We may judge albums released digitally with higher scrutiny, focusing on their presentation (how professional it is) and production (whether its quality is too rehearsal/makeshift).

Most importantly, though, the album must be unambiguously metal. The site has its own definition for what is and isn't metal. We know that not everyone will agree with this definition; and that some people might be passionately angry that we accept some bands but not others. We get it. It may come as a surprise, but not all mods fully agree with this definition either. We all have bands we feel should be on MA and maybe shouldn't be on MA, but we also understand that MA's way of determining what is and isn't metal is an imperfect, but all-around decent solution to a difficult problem. That problem being that everyone has their own way of defining metal music because ultimately what you think isn't and is metal is entirely subjective. Some people define metal by the riffs (as we do), or by how 'heavy' the music is, or even by other elements like image, scene or what bands they've played with. We readily accept that we have a point of view different from others, and we're OK with that. It turns out most of our visitors are fine with that, too.

When we make decisions about what is a valid metal album, they are made as a team. We find that our best decisions are ones made through consensus and agreement between moderators and moderators speak with the authority of all of us. We aim to be transparent with our decisions, and don't shy away when anyone asks us to explain ourselves. That said, one thing to keep in mind is that if a band is widely popular and well-known - and it's not on MA - then it has probably been debated to death here. We do get frustrated repeating ourselves, so before you ask why Rammstein is not on MA, please do a search. You're bound to find numerous results as to why.

3. Be Respectful. No Bitching and Whining.

While we do take great strides to be friendly and transparent with our users, we are not beholden to them. Nobody can make demands of us. We do not operate with a "customer is always right" mentality; we operate by doing what is best for the site when we can get around to doing it. That means, as a user, we ask for your patience, your respect, and your understanding. We're not here to flaunt some imaginary power or to score Internet points.

We do not think that we are the one true absolute authority on what may be called metal, so please don't act like we are trying to thought-police your perception/enjoyment of music by rejecting a band. However, for this particular site, run by its two owners and select staff, we do allow ourselves to enforce these judgement calls when it comes to what gets listed and what doesn't. Disagreement is inevitable, but a line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise we might just as well be the Heavy Music Archives or something similarly blurry. Kindly respect our decisions even if you disagree with them.

That said, we do understand and sympathize with your frustration if your appeal fails, and you're welcome to think we're elitist idiot assholes (or whatever), but this isn't the place to air your grievances and tell us how much you hate us, our decisions, and the way this site is run. You're more than free to start a discussion in the "Suggestions & Complaints" about that (to your peril, probably), but this particular environment is strictly off-limits to that. We expect our users to ask questions and make appeals here. And in return, we will provide answers and make decisions. At no time do we want to get into a prolonged fight with you over an appealed band, and if that starts to happen we'll put an immediate end to it.

4. Things to Avoid.

- Avoid comparing bands. This may seem like the obvious course of action in some cases, but be advised that we generally frown upon arguments like "you have band A listed and band B is similar, hence you must also accept band B". Please avoid this, as it comes with the following problems:

Spoiler: show

  • We simply do not work that way. Each band is assessed and judged on its own merit and trying to compare two distinct bands is treacherous business, even if they may sound similar (which a moderator may not even agree with in the first place). And if the two are indeed sonic carbon copies, perhaps the listed one should be deleted instead. Obviously that is not the only possible scenario and claiming two bands sound the same does not automatically invalidate an argument. It's just very, very often misguided (see below) and we think it's more precise (as much as these things can be) to assess each band as a self-contained entity rather than add even more subjectivity and ambiguity by bringing other bands into the reviewing process.
  • Since the site lists a (very) small number of non-metal exceptions, one might be tempted to use them as a reference point. However, these are exactly that, exceptions, and not subject to our guidelines on music.
  • Slippery slope. We do not want to base further inclusions solely on one or more listed band(s) that might be questionable or were wrongly approved to begin with. We would rather (re-)assess the proposed inclusion and the compared listed band(s) on their own instead of expanding a part of the database based around repeated instances of a resigned "we'll, we have this, why not this as well?". See item 1). To be clear, nobody thinks that we'd otherwise be doomed to ride into fallacy territory and in danger of including BB King or whatever, but we are quite strict about keeping the database focussed.
  • Most importantly, the Archives can in some ways be seen as a database of metal releases rather than bands. What that means is that in order to gain entry, a band only needs one predominantly metal release (ideally a full-length), regardless of the rest of their discography. This can result in bands starting out as metal, but changing to non-metal later or the reverse. More subtle cases exist, with bands being listed based on a (possibly lesser-known) fraction of their discography. So how does this connect to comparing bands? Well, it's simple: Since we judge releases, comparing band A as a whole to band B as a whole is a fallacious argument when one is actually comparing non-metal output of band A (accepted based on their metal output) to non-metal output of band B (unacceptable because they have no metal output). Consider it one level above arguing that band B should be included because they have a few songs as metal as band A's releases.

So again, each band is judged individually and we don't do the blind approach "A, hence also B".


- Avoid entering threads just to chime in with "seconding this" or "I agree/disagree." Unless you're asking a question or providing evidence, and thus actually contributing to the thread, please avoid making unnecessary comments. We don't mind relevant input, but we do mind useless commentary.

- Avoid answering the questions of other users in a way that makes it seem like you have authority on the site. Unless you're one of the people who has an orange, yellow or red name, we do not want you speaking like you are a moderator. Only mods have the power to approve or deny an appeal.

- Avoid asking for second opinions. Our moderators act as a team and we do our due diligence to work together to come up with decisions. If you disagree with a moderator, do not ask for yet another moderator to give a second or third or fourth opinion. If "dad" says 'No', DO NOT run off to "mom" hoping she will say 'Yes'.

- Avoid complaining about the rules/site. Do that in the "Suggestions & Complaints" forum, not in here. We don't expect everyone to agree with the way we run this place and the bands we accept/reject, but we do expect our users to respect us and our rules. You won't last long if you're just here to attack the site.

5. Be Patient.

The staff consists entirely of unpaid volunteers investing their own free time in this site. We aren't a streamlined there-for-you-24/7 service. Response time to your inquiries may vary, depending on who's online and who checks this subforum. Mods may answer within minutes, but a few days aren't unusual either. That means that you SHOULD NOT bump your thread unless both of the following conditions are fulfilled: 1) it's been unusually long (over 1 week at least) since your post, 2) your thread is no longer on the first page of this forum. Note that sometimes mods may choose to respond to inquiries preceding or succeeding yours, but seemingly "ignore" yours. Again, DO NOT bump your thread, unless the two aforementioned conditions apply. Read the second paragraph here as to why responses can be selective.


Before posting, please think through every point on this list, and try to figure out with your common sense what might be wrong. Also, check the email feedback box under your profile on the database, and you'll get the reasons for rejections via email. You can also check the reason under "My bands" as well, especially for those who have opted out of receiving email notifications. The moderator will include a description of the problem. If all this does not help, ask about the band IN THIS FORUM. We won't bite, unless you start barking.

Thank you.

© Napero, Nightgaunt, Morrigan, Azmodes, Derigin
_________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

R.I.P. Diamhea 1987-2018
Live young, die free. Gone, but not forgotten.

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5398
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 2:18 pm 
 

Updated May 13, 2019, reformatted/cleaned up the rules, went live.
_________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

R.I.P. Diamhea 1987-2018
Live young, die free. Gone, but not forgotten.

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