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14222
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:50 pm
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:33 am 
 

Z&A has recently released a new EP called Wake of a Nation, it's still borderline as usual, but it is undoubtely way more metal than the previous stuff.
There are still some clearly non metal moments like "Vigil" and "Wake of a Nation", but i thought it may be acceptable. What do you think?

https://zealandardor.bandcamp.com/album ... -nation-ep

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PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 2579
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:51 am 
 

2 metal songs and another one with 2 short metallic segments won't make the cut.
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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2315
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:54 am 
 

The avant-garde/post-black metal band Zeal & Ardor was previously blacklisted, but they released a new EP on October the 23rd of 2020, titled Wake of a Nation, and I was wondering if the listing could be reconsidered as they have a ton of black metal riffs, metal drumming and a lot of shrieked vocals on this album, namely on songs like Tuskegee.

Spoiler: show


Thanks in advance!


Last edited by PaganiusI on Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
topics merged

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ThStealthK
Rare Earth Metal

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 896
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:00 pm 
 

Full EP:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=O ... CyiSyVWnxk
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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2315
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:08 pm 
 

ThStealthP wrote:


Thanks. I should have included the full thing in my first post. I derped.

The EP is also availabe for streaming on Bandcamp:
https://zealandardor.bandcamp.com/album ... -nation-ep
Where you can also buy the CD and vinyl versions of the EP.
It's also available on Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/album/5s02KPkB ... BoAitnwiWQ

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PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 2579
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:48 pm 
 

Topics merged, this was already discussed (see above)
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agent_fist
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:04 pm
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:13 am 
 

As HeavenDuff said, there's a distinctly metal attitude & technique on the latest EP. They tour with MA acts--Deafheaven recently and Meshuggah upcoming--and curious listeners will likely come here in search of information & discussion.

It might be a stretch, but they're a crucial force in the American extreme metal scene right now, and I think it's to the greater benefit of Metal Archives (and the band) to include them here.

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PDS
The Folk One

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 pm
Posts: 1689
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:48 am 
 

That doesn't matter. When catalogue metal bands, not metal-adjacent bands. When they have an album that's predominantly metal, they'll be accepted.
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ElaineLMN
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:38 pm
Posts: 3
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:37 pm 
 

Wait, are we really arguing that Zeal & Ardor aren't metal? The band that's been on multiple people's and publications' "Best Metal Bands of [BLANK]" lists? The band that's toured with Baroness and Deafhaven? Let's take a look at their projects, simply because the criteria is "predominantly metal."

Devil is Fine (2017)
1. Devil is Fine - Granted, not Metal. Total Soul.
2. In Ashes - Screaming Vocals, Blast Beats. While guitar is low here, I'd argue most would consider this metal, if experimental.
3. Sacreligium I - Also not Metal, but one of three interstitial tracks. I'd argue that these shouldn't even count, but whatever.
4. Come On Down - Again, Screeching Vocals, Black Metal Riffs, and Blast Beats. Definitely a metal track.
5. Children's Summon - An instrumental, but it has all the musical calling cards of metal. Probably the most inarguably metal track on the album if not the previous one.
6. Sacreligium II - Another creepy / weird intermission. Not metal, but you're really going to tell me that other bands on this database haven't done similar things?
7. Blood in the River - Aside from being an amazing song, this song has the screeching, the guitar, the blast beats. I think most people would call this metal, if a little fringe due to the prominent soul influence.
8. What is a Killer Like You Gonna Do Here? - Not metal. Kind of... threatening jazz? I don't know, but definitely not metal.
9. Sacreligium III - Again, not metal. Weird spacy trance shit. This feels the most out of place on the album.

So what are we left with? 4/9 songs. 4/6 if you don't count the intermissions, but for the sake of argument, let's go with the 44% number. A little under half. If this was their only project, I'd agree with not making an entry, and waiting for the next album, the issue comes with the fact that there is a next album, and it is much, much more metal sounding.

Stranger Fruit (2019)
1. Intro - Not super heavy, but definitely has the makings of metal. Black metal-style riffs, some heavy (but admittedly slow) drums. I'd argue we can count this.
2. Gravedigger's Chant - Not metal. Definitely rock, but not metal. It just doesn't get heavy enough.
3. Servants - Again, arguable. The vocals are the big issue here, but I'd argue the instrumentals are heavy and abrasive enough where we can count this.
4. Don't You Dare - Metal. Unquestionably. Heavy riffs, blast beats, screaming, a fucking LaVey sample. Need I say more?
5. Fire of Motion - Even more Metal than the previous song. Take the metal aspects of the last track and turn 'em to 11. This is almost pure metal, barely an ounce of soul music here, though it is there.
6. The Hermit - Ambient intermission track. Not metal.
7. Row Row - Metal, again. While it does have bluesy vocals, it also has the riffs, the drums, and later on, the screaming. All the boxes checked.
8. Ship on Fire - I feel like a broken record, but I'll say it for every track just for clarity. Blast beats, riffs, screaming. Metal.
9. Waste - All boxes checked. It takes a while to get going but definitely becomes Metal, even if it doesn't start that way.
10. You Ain't Coming Back - Iffy, but I lean toward not counting this one. It has some black metal-style riffs, but that's about it, and I don't think that's enough.
11. The Fool - Intermission track. Not Metal.
12. We Can't Be Found - Another one with build-up, but by the 30 second mark or so, definitely shows how metal it is.
13. Stranger Fruit - Has metal sections but it is not the majority of the song. Again, arguable, but I won't count this either.
14. Solve - Intermission.
15. Coagula - Metal. An instrumental track, but still metal. Heavy beats, heavy riffs. Wouldn't seem out of place as an instrumental on any other Satanic metal project.
16. Built On Ashes - Another arguable one, but I'm counting it. The song is built on a black metal riff, with heavy drums. The song's pace is much slower and the vocals much softer, but because of the instrumentation I think it counts.

So, what are we left with? 10/16, 10/13 if you don't count the intermissions. No matter which way you slice it (63% or 77%), this album is manly, or for the most part (which is the definition of predominantly), metal. And we haven't even gotten to Wake of a Nation which has some of the most metal tracks the band has produced, like Tuskegee and Trust No One. If we took every track ever produced by the band and counted it that way the band is about 51% metal, which is debatable, I'll admit, but this is where discretion comes in. The band is largely considered by most people, fans, and publications to be metal, and not having them on this database does a disservice to the name "Metal Archives." I argue we remove them from the blacklist and make their genre "avant-garde" or "post-metal" in addition to black and death metal.

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PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 2579
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:22 pm 
 

There's metal but it's not predominating. Blast beats and screams do not make a metal album by our standards. It simply lacks riffing.
End of story.
Sorry
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alexo666
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:53 am
Posts: 427
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:17 pm 
 

*Has riffs*

"iT sImPlY lAcKs RiFfInG!"
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ElaineLMN
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:38 pm
Posts: 3
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:20 pm 
 

thank you, alexo. part of my argument was the riffs, and then the deflection is "it has no riffs." it's clear to me that mods just dont like this band, and therefore it's blacklisted.

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 10607
Location: Austria
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:33 pm 
 

alexo666 wrote:
*Has riffs*

"iT sImPlY lAcKs RiFfInG!"

Please don't post in this subforum unless you have something worthwhile to add. I shouldn't really need to spell this out.

ElaineLMN wrote:
thank you, alexo. part of my argument was the riffs, and then the deflection is "it has no riffs." it's clear to me that mods just dont like this band, and therefore it's blacklisted.

Well, if you think that's a reasonable assumption to make, I doubt I can convince you otherwise. I for one, while not a huge fan or anything, like some of their songs and think it's an intriguing mix they're doing (albeit perhaps not always the most organic). I gave their second album a couple of spins after it came out, being curious if (and admittedly hopeful that) it might earn them a place here. Alas, it was close and personally I was torn and might've said yes, but the consensus was leaning more towards not predominantly metal. There are a number of things going on, and while no one is denying that there is metal on it, it doesn't appear to be the clear focus. Now please drop it, the decision is final based on the material available so far (perhaps some future album will be different) and no amount of snide remarks or -sorry- ridiculous track-by-track analyses is going to make a difference.
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ElaineLMN
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:38 pm
Posts: 3
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:38 pm 
 

funny, it was your signature that inspired that stance in me. I guess I personally believe that the standards used to define metal here are... restrictive. I, myself am a pretty big fan of the genre, musically, but don't personally like screechy vocals in most cases. My point in doing the track-by-track analysis was to try to build an undeniable case, but the real problem here I think is gatekeeping. Not by the mods because they don't like the band, but in the definition of metal as a genre. As a pretty big fan of Zeal and Ardor, myself, it was disheartening to not see them on the "Metal Archive. It feels like the site should be more accepting of sub-genres, but hey that's just me. If I really can't change your mind, so be it. I just think that stance is unwarranted, given how the band is categorized by so many others as falling under our umbrella.

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PDS
The Folk One

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 pm
Posts: 1689
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:55 pm 
 

What makes you think we don't even like Z&A? I'm the dude that originally blacklisted the band and I think they're a great band. They're just not meal, metallic, yes, but an experimental band overall. We all listen to more than just metal. Personally, and yes, this is a bias since it's coming from the inside, I think our standards are fine. We have our definition of metal, other people do as well. You want an endless stream of 0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 counted as metal? Be our guests. It's not by out books. Yes, we have influence, but only because people are stupid. We may be the biggest and most popular reference site, but we're not calling any shots. We're just a bunch of database nerds. Breakdowns are punk and not metal, neither is endless 0-0-0-0-0 chugging. If people want to think breakdowns are, for some nebulous reason, metal, then go ahead. For us, a line has to be drawn somewhere. We need to have some sort of structure, otherwise everything goes to shit. We need steady boundaries, the mental gymnastics people go through in including bands is astounding sometimes, you're going to have to trust me on that. It's the same if there was, say, an archive of horror movies and someone wants to add Pee-Wee's Big Adventure because of the Large Marge scene (though I guess Requiem for a Dream would be a better movie to argue as an example) Trust me, I would love to have Z&A on the archives, but we all went through it and felt that overall, it's an experimental band, that has metal among it's other influences, just not predominant. Yes, there are bands that are associated with the metal scene, but not metal. Kvelertak, a lot of bro hard rock bands, etc Hell, I knew a kid who's favorite 'metal' band were Seether and Finger Eleven. That is not to say that many of these decisions are universal, we've been split on many bands a lot of the time, so it's not like a carved in stone impression among everyone in the staff. There's shit like 'is is black metal, or is it just post-rock?" and stuff like that.

And just saying, I, personally, thought he second album only just barely missed the cut.
(And yes, we do have selected exceptions, but most of those were early additions and we're not exactly a democracy)
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I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock. Not just that but live music should hit you in the genitals. It might not if you don't use good amplifiers and your modelling shit goes straight out of the PA. But good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS.

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 10607
Location: Austria
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:18 am 
 

ElaineLMN wrote:
funny, it was your signature that inspired that stance in me.

The quote? I picked that one precisely because it doesn't make a lick of sense on so many levels. :lol:
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