Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Register   * Login 



This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
Leechmaster
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:51 am
Posts: 2121
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:55 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Unearthly wrote:
Leechmaster wrote:
If Ion Dissonance aren't metal....then what genre are they???

"Mathcore."


Yeah, only retards use that term though, but it basically means the same exact thing I posted.


When I think mathcore I think shitty bands like The Number Twelve Looks Like You and Fear Before the March of Flames. Ion Dissonance don't seem that technical to me, especially on their latest album. Lots of breakdowns, blast-beats and hardcore style vocals but maybe thats just me. They remind me way to much of Despised Icon especially with songs like Scorn Haven. Metal or not, they still kick ass.

I see Ed Gein are on the archives but aren't they mathcore??? Or maybe its a totally different band :scratch:
_________________
Soundcloud

Top
 Profile  
Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:40 am 
 

MATI9630 wrote:
Could anyone please tell me why isn't Nanowar/Nanowar of Steel on this site?
Because it has got like 5 covers? Their other stuff is THEIR ORIGINAL stuff with funny (i made up a word?) lyrics... and c'mon, you can't call that rock, this is just pure heavy/power metal. And I seriously doubt that no-one had proposed this band.
So can someone give me GOOD reason: why?

Because they're a parody band.

Top
 Profile  
Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:09 am 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
MATI9630 wrote:
Could anyone please tell me why isn't Nanowar/Nanowar of Steel on this site?
Because it has got like 5 covers? Their other stuff is THEIR ORIGINAL stuff with funny (i made up a word?) lyrics... and c'mon, you can't call that rock, this is just pure heavy/power metal. And I seriously doubt that no-one had proposed this band.
So can someone give me GOOD reason: why?

Because they're a parody band.
¨

Actually it was because they were considered glam (black list says "cock rock"). If the user will be able to present here at least one metal album by them, then they can be reconsidered.


Last edited by Witcher on Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:36 am 
 

Witcher wrote:
Catachthonian wrote:
MATI9630 wrote:
Could anyone please tell me why isn't Nanowar/Nanowar of Steel on this site?
Because it has got like 5 covers? Their other stuff is THEIR ORIGINAL stuff with funny (i made up a word?) lyrics... and c'mon, you can't call that rock, this is just pure heavy/power metal. And I seriously doubt that no-one had proposed this band.
So can someone give me GOOD reason: why?

Because they're a parody band.
¨

Actually it wasbecause they wre considered glam (black list says "cock rock"). If the user will be able to prsnt here at least one metal album by them, then they can be reconsidered.

Aren't parody bands highly frowned upon here if they're over-the-top (which is the case with Nanowar)?

Top
 Profile  
Fanfarigoule
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:59 am
Posts: 3254
Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:56 am 
 

Quote:
We do NOT accept the following (this is our decision, please don't argue this):
* Cover/tribute/gimmick bands (ex: The Iron Maidens, Catch the Rainbow), unless they start as such and eventually write their own music

The rules seem to point out only the fact that they these bands do not write their own material.
If they have at least a physical release which is own written and metal enough, I wouldn't mind their inclusion.

Top
 Profile  
TheGrimWombat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 2139
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:18 am 
 

There are already parody bands included here...as long as the music is metal and their own material, there's no problem, or so I understood.

Top
 Profile  
MATI9630
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:27 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:36 am 
 

They have got 3 METAL albums which have some covers, but over 50% (like 80% maybe.) is THEIR material. So I don't see any problem, maybe except the fact that true moderators lack sense of humour...

Top
 Profile  
Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:54 am 
 

Proof?

Top
 Profile  
MATI9630
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:27 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:02 am 
 

http://www.nanowar.it ...........If you are not able to find some information about their albums here, then I truly pity you.

Top
 Profile  
Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:16 am 
 

MATI9630 wrote:
http://www.nanowar.it ...........If you are not able to find some information about their albums here, then I truly pity you.

Provide songsamples from one WHOLE album. Is it so hard to understand?

Top
 Profile  
oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 5343
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:45 am 
 

Witcher wrote:
MATI9630 wrote:
http://www.nanowar.it ...........If you are not able to find some information about their albums here, then I truly pity you.

Provide songsamples from one WHOLE album. Is it so hard to understand?

Wish granted:
http://www.jamendo.com/en/artist/nanowar
_________________

My website which contains reviews as well as interviews:
https://adsol.oneyoudontknow.com
My podcast:
https://adsolmag.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:22 am 
 

oneyoudontknow wrote:
Witcher wrote:
MATI9630 wrote:
http://www.nanowar.it ...........If you are not able to find some information about their albums here, then I truly pity you.

Provide songsamples from one WHOLE album. Is it so hard to understand?

Wish granted:
http://www.jamendo.com/en/artist/nanowar

It is metal, I do not understand what the problem was in this case.
Removed from the list.

Top
 Profile  
Intricacy
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:23 pm
Posts: 1
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:41 pm 
 

Why did The Howling Void did get rejected since his album is already out (digital format)?

Proof: http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm? ... df35b213f8

Top
 Profile  
rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 9094
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:50 pm 
 

Intricacy wrote:
Why did The Howling Void did get rejected since his album is already out (digital format)?


Read the submission rules.

Quote:
7) Proof of existence - must have a PHYSICAL release

First, the band must have at least released SOME material. If you don't even have a physical demo... forget it. The band might have been formed, even got a logo, but how will we know that they won't just disband before even recording any song? An mp3 or two on MySpace or mp3.com-like websites is not enough. The band must have a demo out - this is the minimum. If you want to add your band, and you *know* you will release something soon, simply wait until it's released before submitting it!

It would be best if there is mention of the band anywhere on the Web, even if it's just a demo review. Otherwise, it could be a joke band and we have no way of knowing. If you have complete line-up information and/or album titles with tracklisting, even if there is no mention anywhere else on the Internet (that'll mean the Encyclopaedia will have the exclusive information! ;)), it's already better than just the minimal information with no album.
As this rule was added several months after the site's launch, it's possible that some bands already on the Encyclopaedia are breaking it. If you KNOW a band listed here that virtually doesn't exist, feel free to report it.
(Note that 0 results on Google might not prove it doesn't exist, but it doesn't mean it never existed either - it just helps us if we see a mention somewhere on the Web...)
_________________
Hexenkraft - diabolical cyberpunk darksynth
Cosmic Atrophy - extradimensional death metal

Top
 Profile  
MATI9630
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:27 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:11 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
oneyoudontknow wrote:
Witcher wrote:
MATI9630 wrote:
http://www.nanowar.it ...........If you are not able to find some information about their albums here, then I truly pity you.

Provide songsamples from one WHOLE album. Is it so hard to understand?

Wish granted:
http://www.jamendo.com/en/artist/nanowar

It is metal, I do not understand what the problem was in this case.
Removed from the list.


Are you moderator? Or something?
Then please remove from banned list also Nanowar of Steel, which is their current name.

Top
 Profile  
SepticTomb
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 364
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:58 pm 
 

My submission of CWN ANWNN got rejected on the grounds of lack of proof. I actually have the demo in my possession, but if it's necessary I'll upload pictures. Thought I was probably in the clear of that by now...
_________________
My label - www.nokturnaltransmissionsrecords.com

Brutal death meets funeral doom - www.myspace.com/septictomb

Top
 Profile  
Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
Posts: 9275
Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:24 pm 
 

Morannon

I've been sleeping on this one for a while and did some research. With bands such as Uruk-Hai (Aut) and Ice Ages on the forums i figured I'd take a stab at it.

I tried earlier but the site took one of its periodical dumps halfway through the upload, and I must have missed the "notify" button, but believe I got far enough for the band to go through (albeit I couldn't get the album uploaded). Hope enough proof is in the MySpace, I'm splitting hairs either way, do your worst.



www.myspace.com/morannonband

Top
 Profile  
Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:08 am 
 

SepticTomb wrote:
My submission of CWN ANWNN got rejected on the grounds of lack of proof. I actually have the demo in my possession, but if it's necessary I'll upload pictures. Thought I was probably in the clear of that by now...

I think it's necessary...

Diamhea wrote:
Morannon

I've been sleeping on this one for a while and did some research. With bands such as Uruk-Hai (Aut) and Ice Ages on the forums i figured I'd take a stab at it.

I tried earlier but the site took one of its periodical dumps halfway through the upload, and I must have missed the "notify" button, but believe I got far enough for the band to go through (albeit I couldn't get the album uploaded). Hope enough proof is in the MySpace, I'm splitting hairs either way, do your worst.



www.myspace.com/morannonband

Not metal enough. Guitars are used only as a background instrument and on rare occasions. The music is built around keyboards.

Top
 Profile  
SitraAhra
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:46 am
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:02 am 
 

Quote:
Not metal enough. Guitars are used only as a background instrument and on rare occasions. The music is built around keyboards.


It's ENOUGH Metal.This guy use Guitar with metal riffs but the final mix is a bit buried.But the main problem probably is Demo existence.

Top
 Profile  
Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:09 am 
 

SitraAhra wrote:
This guy use Guitar with metal riffs.

Except those riffs repeat (or are similar to) keyboard parts.

Top
 Profile  
Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
Posts: 9275
Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:13 am 
 

SitraAhra wrote:
Quote:
Not metal enough. Guitars are used only as a background instrument and on rare occasions. The music is built around keyboards.


It's ENOUGH Metal.This guy use Guitar with metal riffs but the final mix is a bit buried.But the main problem probably is Demo existence.

I can prove the demo's existence. There is an interview on the blog to solidify the band's existence itself, as well.

Top
 Profile  
Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:14 am 
 

Diamhea wrote:
I can prove the demo's existence.

Then do it.

EDIT: the interview in the blog (dated 16.08.2008) states there's no CD out yet.


Last edited by Catachthonian on Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
SitraAhra
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:46 am
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:17 am 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
SitraAhra wrote:
This guy use Guitar with metal riffs.

Except those riffs repeat (or are similar to) keyboard parts.


So ? He can repeat is as much as he want to,but music is Metal.Take for example TARTAROS (Nor) or PARNASSUS.Just as mentioned before He's inexperienced and young music writer and do not know how properly Mix music plus lack a creativity.Also as understand Demo is unreleased in physical format.

Top
 Profile  
Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
Posts: 9275
Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:19 am 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
Diamhea wrote:
I can prove the demo's existence.

Then do it.

Sure, please tell me what exact proof you need. I understand this may be a common question, but I couldn't find what the exact requirements were regarding proof of a release.

Top
 Profile  
Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:21 am 
 

@ SitraAhra :OK, I won't argue any more on its metalness. Looks like it's really unreleased, unless proven otherwise. Time will tell.


Last edited by Catachthonian on Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:22 am 
 

Diamhea wrote:
Catachthonian wrote:
Diamhea wrote:
I can prove the demo's existence.

Then do it.

Sure, please tell me what exact proof you need. I understand this may be a common question, but I couldn't find what the exact requirements were regarding proof of a release.

If you read through a couple of pages back, you could see that it's usually a couple of photos of the entire package (CD/LP/MC/whatever + booklet & backcover), a link to a reliable label/distro carrying the release, a couple of reviews based on PHYSICAL release (not mp3s).

Top
 Profile  
Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
Posts: 9275
Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:27 am 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
Diamhea wrote:
Catachthonian wrote:
Diamhea wrote:
I can prove the demo's existence.

Then do it.

Sure, please tell me what exact proof you need. I understand this may be a common question, but I couldn't find what the exact requirements were regarding proof of a release.

If you read through a couple of pages back, you could see that it's usually a couple of photos of the entire package (CD/LP/MC/whatever + booklet & backcover), a link to a reliable label/distro carrying the release, a couple of reviews based on PHYSICAL release (not mp3s).

Aw ok, yeah it wouldn't be physical, the demo is to be distributed via free download.

Top
 Profile  
Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:54 am 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
@ SitraAhra :OK, I won't argue any more on its metalness. Looks like it's really unreleased, unless proven otherwise. Time will tell.

From myspace:
. The drums and guitars are all programmed, and I thoroughly enjoy making everything from scratch myself.
Not only he is unexperienced, but the music is all electronic and not metal.

As for Ice Ages and Uruk Hai, these are here just as side projects, they are not metal themselves.

Top
 Profile  
Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:56 am 
 

Witcher wrote:
From myspace:
The drums and guitars are all programmed, and I thoroughly enjoy making everything from scratch myself.
Not only he is unexperienced, but the music is all electronic and not metal.

It's all that's needed to know, then. :)

Top
 Profile  
Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
Posts: 9275
Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:39 am 
 

Thank you for considering.

Top
 Profile  
MutatisMutandis
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:39 pm
Posts: 14
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:02 am 
 

I submitted Ehnahre yesterday, but it was rejected because their widely circulated promo copies of The Man Closing Up were not "officially released" as of yet.

I just re-submitted the band with it's official release date on the the album's page, and a few notes reminding the users to shy away from posting reviews until September 22nd.
Is this alright? I've seen many albums posted prior to their official distribution, but with the same quarantine. Thanks :)

Top
 Profile  
Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:06 am 
 

MutatisMutandis wrote:
I submitted Ehnahre yesterday, but it was rejected because their widely circulated promo copies of The Man Closing Up were not "officially released" as of yet.

I just re-submitted the band with it's official release date on the the album's page, and a few notes reminding the users to shy away from posting reviews until September 22nd.
Is this alright? I've seen many albums posted prior to their official distribution, but with the same quarantine. Thanks :)


No, it is not o.k. Read rule 7. You have to wait for official release.
You should look at the written rules and not at what others do. The albums are added for already accepted bands with other valid releases.

Top
 Profile  
MutatisMutandis
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:39 pm
Posts: 14
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:11 am 
 

Does that mean I could re-submit minus the album data? There are a vast amount of myspace bands and old, obscure acts that have no information at all on their releases.

Top
 Profile  
Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:15 am 
 

MutatisMutandis wrote:
Does that mean I could re-submit minus the album data? There are a vast amount of myspace bands and old, obscure acts that have no information at all on their releases.

Please, use common sense. It is clear that the album is not released yet, therefore it does not fit rule 7. That is what matters.

Top
 Profile  
Pag
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:55 am 
 

"I submitted 5 bands, and for each one, you said the same thing, stop joking man !

Grümo ? with its demos, website, myspace, members, bio, etc, no any proof ???

Bullshit, your site is great, but saying that the 5 bandes I submitted aren't real bands, what the hell are you ?

Wyrms done a demo called "promo 08", with 5 songs, no titles for all of them, it's not a joke man !

Dismind, who got myspace, a rehearsal and a demo, joke band ? what the crap is that ?!

McAB, so many titles, one rehearsal, and no links because they don't want, a joke ? NO !
Necrophiliac Gravediggers ? do you want their demos if you think it don't exist ?

What a crapshit, all of this 5 bands are OK !

So, whatever the proofs you want ?

Thanks to read this.

PS : don't say "Grümo isn't metal" 'cause THIS band is the real MODERN one, death'n'roll, the way it must be, fuck the trve, anti burzthrone-purists."


The mail I send, 'cause all the bands I submitted were rejected.
(and also, before this)

Top
 Profile  
Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:00 pm 
 

Read rule 7.
You have to prove, that the bands are metal and have a PHYSICAL release out.
Myspace can prove, that a band is metal, but not much more, especially not the existence of the relese.
And to submit band without links and expect it to be accepted.. really, where do you think you are?

You should also change your whiney, chaotic tone. Questions should be made in a civil, coherent and logical manner.

Top
 Profile  
Pag
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:06 pm 
 

Ok, read this :
I submitted many bands, which was ALL rejected.
So, I'm a bit nervous, you know.....

Abyme ? BM, one rehearsal
Dismind ? SMBM, one rehearsal, different links and a demo
Grümo ? death'n'roll, two demos, many others proofs
McAB ? one rehearsal you know
Chaos (but it's ok now, for different reasons) ? it's ok
Necrophiliac Gravediggers - one demo, no links 'cause members don't want one
Wyrms ? links, two demos (and one entirly on myspac, but also on CD, as you said a PHYSICAL release)

I don't shit on this site, 'cause it's great, but please, take care of the submissions, before rejecting one by one these you don't want, these bandes exists, and I think they're many proofs, so......
If what I noticed isn't in the due forms, tell me what PROOF it must have !
THIS is the hell

Top
 Profile  
Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:13 pm 
 

Read rule 7, if you cannot understand it, do not try to submit anything.

Bands without links sibmitted by unknown users will be rejected without mercy.

You need to prove
a) that a band is metal - by songsamples, or at least two zine reviews
b) that it has a PHYSICAL release, by linking to a distro which carries it, an online store or a band's official merchandise section. Sometimes scans of the whole physical relesse can be helpful or a zine review which mentions the type of the release.

Top
 Profile  
oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 5343
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:42 pm 
 

Beithíoch
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... =330933116
too drony and too little bm sounding, right?
Yes, this is very borderline...
_________________

My website which contains reviews as well as interviews:
https://adsol.oneyoudontknow.com
My podcast:
https://adsolmag.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
znthrasher
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:00 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:23 pm 
 

Hey guys, if Motley Crue and Dokken are in the Archives, why Ratt is not!?

Ratt was really heavy metal back in the 80's like Motley and Dokken were, just check out their first albuns. And they were at the same METAL Massacre that Metallica was...

I think bands like Poison can't be here because they are more rock'n roll than metal, but Ratt seems more like Judas Priest, Accept than bubble gun rockers.

Thanks!

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Go to page Previous  1 ... 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 ... 208  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group