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TheGrimWombat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 1517
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:53 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
droneriot wrote:
So you're saying a metal band has to sound like Black Sabbath because a gothic rock band has to sound like Sisters of Mercy, so Demilich sounds like Black Sabbath. That just makes no sense. And what you hear and what people tell you doesn't matter, this is just simply gothic rock:

Youtube: show


This Lacrimosa song indeed has gothic rock influence, I agree with you. I would even call this a gothic metal song. But most stuff of them that I heard doesn't sound like this.


If this sounds like metal to you, I'm not sure that you should be commenting on genres, honestly.
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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:23 pm 
 

TheGrimWombat wrote:

If this sounds like metal to you, I'm not sure that you should be commenting on genres, honestly.

It sounds like gothic "metal" on the weak side of metal, since the riffing is gothic rock. Listen to Theatre of Tragedy's Aegis, I doubt they would be accepted here if that was their only album. Yeah, I agree that metal was a strong word. Still, this song is one of the more metallic ones I heard from Lacrimosa, they could have a chance to be accepted as gothic metal/rock if they had a whole album that sounded like this.

Being metal or non-metal wasn't our problem, since the bands I discussed are already on this site. I tried to evaluate the amount of gothic rock influence to justify whether they could or could not be called gothic. In my opinion, Lacrimosa don't even deserve to be called gothic rock.

Actually, on second thought, I agree with you, even this song doesn't really deserve to be called metal. I got too carried away about the gothic infuences, since metal archives has a real problem with that.

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PDS
The Folk One

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 pm
Posts: 1550
Location: A forest on an island!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:31 pm 
 

Metal Asylum wrote:
Metal Asylum wrote:
Ancient:

Should just narrow it down to Black Metal. If an additional tag is needed, you should probably go with Atmospheric- definitely not Melodic. Violins and Female Vocals are scarce and generally build towards a specific gloomy atmosphere, instead of being melody-driven, plus the Vocals themselves are old-school Norwegian Black Metal style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3pNZtC_h28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehS4lR6ZO5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8CLgNbS9kw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az_izQxE10w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RhI43gzvGU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBTu_zsDHII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja3ff1K8zyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFASGQrpO8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzETRHzD9wo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ1fcv_vXhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6YSpzt7Qig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMMc47l6m7w


Little bump, so it won't get buried on the thread.


I sort of think the genre is relatively fine just due to the type of melodic black metal it was at the time. It sure ain't Dissection type of melodic bm, but Ancient does recall more like 90's Dimmu Borgir and the like, where it was mostly straight up BM, keybaords/atmosphere and the melody wasn't really say like how it was in MDM, more in the terms of the chord changes and the like. I think some more mods would have to chime in on this but I'm sort of fine with how it is atm.

Re: Lacrimosa,

Yeah, just goth rock. This is the wrong thread for it but our general blacklisting decision was that they were just goth rock with metal elements.
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I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock. Not just that but live music should hit you in the genitals. It might not if you don't use good amplifiers and your modelling shit goes straight out of the PA. But good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS.

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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 687
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:02 am 
 

PDS wrote:
Metal Asylum wrote:
Metal Asylum wrote:
Ancient:

Should just narrow it down to Black Metal. If an additional tag is needed, you should probably go with Atmospheric- definitely not Melodic. Violins and Female Vocals are scarce and generally build towards a specific gloomy atmosphere, instead of being melody-driven, plus the Vocals themselves are old-school Norwegian Black Metal style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3pNZtC_h28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehS4lR6ZO5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8CLgNbS9kw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az_izQxE10w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RhI43gzvGU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBTu_zsDHII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja3ff1K8zyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFASGQrpO8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzETRHzD9wo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ1fcv_vXhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6YSpzt7Qig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMMc47l6m7w


Little bump, so it won't get buried on the thread.


I sort of think the genre is relatively fine just due to the type of melodic black metal it was at the time. It sure ain't Dissection type of melodic bm, but Ancient does recall more like 90's Dimmu Borgir and the like, where it was mostly straight up BM, keybaords/atmosphere and the melody wasn't really say like how it was in MDM, more in the terms of the chord changes and the like. I think some more mods would have to chime in on this but I'm sort of fine with how it is atm.

He's already gotten a no from both Paganius and I + a warning from deri for continuing to push it despite being told no twice.
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PDS
The Folk One

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 pm
Posts: 1550
Location: A forest on an island!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 am 
 

Well, then. That matter is settled.
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Acrobat wrote:
I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock. Not just that but live music should hit you in the genitals. It might not if you don't use good amplifiers and your modelling shit goes straight out of the PA. But good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS.

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:20 am 
 

PDS wrote:
Re: Lacrimosa,

Yeah, just goth rock. This is the wrong thread for it but our general blacklisting decision was that they were just goth rock with metal elements.

The problem is that they aren't goth rock. Same with all those bands listed as gothic metal on this site, they aren't gothic metal, because what some moderators perceive as gothic rock elements have nothing to do with goth rock.

I reported Tristania, but Storm of the Light's Bane told me their genre is fine, even though they are like 60-70% death-doom and 30% gothic metal. Why are they listed as gothic metal even though they aren't straight up gothic metal? Paradise Lost's Draconian Times is gothic metal, Theatre of Tragedy's Aegis is gothic metal. Now compare these albums to Widow's Weeds or Beyond the Veil and you'll see that they are mostly death/doom. So their correct genre is gothic/death/doom/symphonic metal.

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OpsiusCato
Mexican Metal Inquisition

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 2762
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:14 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
Tristania (...) they are like 60-70% death-doom

I'm pretty certain that whatever you think "Death Doom" is, it is not, kiddo.

You kinda sorta remind me of Goatfangs. It is not a good thing by any means.
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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:27 pm 
 

OpsiusCato wrote:
I'm pretty certain that whatever you think "Death Doom" is, it is not, kiddo.

You kinda sorta remind me of Goatfangs. It is not a good thing by any means.

If the riffs have death metal and doom metal origin, what is it if not death-doom?
If you think these songs have anything to do with gothic metal or rock and are not death-doom, then you definitely have no idea about the genre, kiddo.

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show


Now compare that to Draconian Times by Paradise Lost or Aegis by Theatre of Tragedy, which are actual gothic metal albums. Tristania has elements like this, but most of their riffs are death-doom like the first two albums by Theatre of Tragedy or Draconian's albums. If you fail to see this, then you are pretty incompetent.

By the way, what's the deal with such a condescending tone? Trying to compensate for something?

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OpsiusCato
Mexican Metal Inquisition

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 2762
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:02 pm 
 

Nice to see you back, Snappy McSnappington.
Diplomate wrote:
If you fail to see this, then you are pretty incompetent. By the way, what's the deal with such a condescending tone? Trying to compensate for something?

Haha, seems like I touched a sensible fiber here. You really go through life agonizing over stuff, don't you?

Look kiddo, you're positively the first person ever to call Tristania Death Doom in the whole world. I'm quite familiar with World of Glass and I listened to Ashes a lot when it was new, so I know which songs you're talking about, and let me tell you, those are NOT Death Doom. I'd understand if you mistake, say, early Autopsy or even early Incantation with Death Doom, but seriously, Tristania? I'm afraid you're just confirming my original statement. And you seem to be forgetting the basic rules: "Grunts =/= Death" and "Slow =/= Doom".

Now, how can you explain that a band that has NEVER released a Death Doom album has "60-70%" of their discography in that genre?

Again, and I can't stress this enough... You're the only one having this opinion.
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PhilosophicalFrog, making accurate statements as usual, wrote:
Opsius is Metal as fuck.

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:46 pm 
 

OpsiusCato wrote:
Nice to see you back, Snappy McSnappington.
Haha, seems like I touched a sensible fiber here. You really go through life agonizing over stuff, don't you?

Look kiddo, you're positively the first person ever to call Tristania Death Doom in the whole world. I'm quite familiar with World of Glass and I listened to Ashes a lot when it was new, so I know which songs you're talking about, and let me tell you, those are NOT Death Doom. I'd understand if you mistake, say, early Autopsy or even early Incantation with Death Doom, but seriously, Tristania? I'm afraid you're just confirming my original statement. And you seem to be forgetting the basic rules: "Grunts =/= Death" and "Slow =/= Doom".

Now, how can you explain that a band that has NEVER released a Death Doom album has "60-70%" of their discography in that genre?

Again, and I can't stress this enough... You're the only one having this opinion.

Well, the person who used this pretty civil discussion to make himself look like an expert and a "daddy" is not me, it's you. If you think I am that much of a noob who has no clue about what he's talking about (with which I won't argue since my aim is not to show how cool I am), you could have respectfully pointed at my errors, but you chose otherwise. What did you expect from me, prostrating before you just because you are a moderator on a metal site? Sorry, but that doesn't work like this. I doubt you are as fast to call people you don't know as kiddos in real life. Next time please be adequate enough not to behave like a 15-year-old teen.

Listen to Widow's Weeds. If you can't hear the doom metal origin of this album, you should resign from your position right now, since it's definitely in the same style as early Theatre of Tragedy and The Sins of Thy Beloved, which are even now labelled as gothic/death/doom or gothic/doom. Or are they not death/doom to you either?

Now for the World of Glass and Ashes. If you don't think these riffs are death or doom, then what are they? If you think these riffs are "gothic metal", then it means they have something to do with gothic rock. Try to tell a fan of gothic rock that these riffs are from gothic rock, they would laugh at you and think that you are completely incompetent when it comes to judging musical genres. You comfortably chose to not notice my passage about real gothic metal, so I repeat again, listen to Aegis and Draconian Times. To think the riffs from the songs I posted and the songs on these albums belong to the same genre is laughable. It's not some secret knowledge, it's just common sense.

So, you probably won't argue these riffs have anything to do with gothic metal. What are they then? What should we label Tristania? You are a moderator and expert here, I'm a simple noob, so please go on and evaluate the origin of these riffs. They are metal riffs clearly, and you are an expert on metal, so could you please tell me what genre of metal do these riffs belong to?

For example the riff of The Wretched at 1:45, is it not doom metal to you? Is it groove metal or nu-metal or what? It's definitely not a gothic metal riff, because it's not even close to the kind of riffs gothic rock has. I admit that 60-70% death-doom was too much, it's more like 20% death-doom, 30-40% gothic metal, and the rest is something of a different genre. I'm really looking forward to your judgement, it will really show me that my understanding of metal is completely wrong.

As for this whole thing being my invention, this doesn't mean I'm wrong. Lot's of people are parroting completely wrong opinions, like claiming that Widow's Weeds is gothic metal or that Ashes and Illuminations are symphonic metal or whatever.


Last edited by Diplomate on Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ᴎostalgiʞK
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:27 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Argentina, Brazil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:52 pm 
 

Diplomate, fathers on the matter in question: This and this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1WOqCrPlM
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OpsiusCato wrote:
It's in my Goatfangs text.file
Hilarious stupid comment that MalconInTheMETAL wrote:
Everyone calls Black Sabbath heavy metal, but by today's standards they aren't at all

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:38 pm 
 

ᴎostalgiʞK wrote:
Diplomate, fathers on the matter in question: This and this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1WOqCrPlM

It's not a good idea to take the most extreme examples and say that just because Tristania doesn't sound like this, they aren't death-doom. You need to take something which is similar, but still within the confines of the genre. I perfectly know about My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost's debut, etc. Now listen to Theatre of Tragedy's first two albums, which are death-doom. Tristania's debut is exactly in this style, their future albums are faster and contain more moments influenced by gothic rock (thus gothic metal), but they still contain a lot of death-doom influence, and some riffs which don't quite sound like death-doom, but also not like gothic metal. These riffs remind me of melodeath, so what's the problem with labelling the band as gothic/death/doom just like Draconian and ToT are now?


If we leave them as gothic metal, then they are somehow in the same genre as Aegis, Draconian Times and other non-extreme albums which consist of gothic rock riffs + some heavy metal riffing and guitars. I don't think this is how it's supposed to be.

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ᴎostalgiʞK
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:27 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Argentina, Brazil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:35 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
If we leave them as gothic metal, then they are somehow in the same genre as Aegis, Draconian Times and other non-extreme albums which consist of gothic rock riffs + some heavy metal riffing and guitars. I don't think this is how it's supposed to be.


What do you mean? Being in the same genre does not qualify the band A the same as band B, Silencer is depressive black metal, and it's similar to Shining (I agree) and Shining is cataloged just as black metal.

Happy Days is also in depressive black metal genre and I don't find much similarity with Silencer (sure, they're both depressive black metal)

Forgotten Tomb is not similar to Burzum at all.

Besatt is not similar to Dark Blasphemer.

Gorgoroth is not similar to Nocturnal Depression.

Austere is not even close to I'm In a Coffin.

Woods of Desolation is not similar to Darkthrone.

Just genres man.. Chill out for a second.
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OpsiusCato wrote:
It's in my Goatfangs text.file
Hilarious stupid comment that MalconInTheMETAL wrote:
Everyone calls Black Sabbath heavy metal, but by today's standards they aren't at all

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:43 pm 
 

ᴎostalgiʞK wrote:
Diplomate wrote:
If we leave them as gothic metal, then they are somehow in the same genre as Aegis, Draconian Times and other non-extreme albums which consist of gothic rock riffs + some heavy metal riffing and guitars. I don't think this is how it's supposed to be.


What do you mean? Being in the same genre does not qualify the band A the same as band B, Silencer is depressive black metal, and it's similar to Shining (I agree) and Shining is cataloged just as black metal.
...

They still have some characteristics that make them similar. Tremolo picking, blast beats, riffs that are recognizable as black metal riffs, shrieked vocals and so on. Now if you compare these two songs:
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Tristania song has death-doom metal riffs (listen closer, you can't say there are no death/doom riffs here, at least if you have listened for more than one minute), while ToT song doesn't. ToT song has gothic rock riffs played with metal guitars and clean gothic rock style guitars, while Tristania song doesn't have that. ToT song has some "doomy" riffs in the chorus, but that's about it. You can't tell me these songs are in the same genre.

Ok, let's compare two Tristania songs that are clearly in different genres:
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

The first song has gothic rock influence and is a perfect example of gothic metal. The second song doesn't have a single gothic rock element, the riffs are pure doom metal. Do you still think the second song is gothic metal?

Still not enough? I can show more!
Gothic metal:
Spoiler: show
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show


Death-doom/melodic death-doom/whatever metal:
Spoiler: show
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Are you still going to tell me these two categories belong to the same genre, despite the first one having little to no death/doom influences and the second one having little to no gothic rock influences? Ok, even if you don't think Tristania is death-doom (although I find it extremely strange, having listened to them dozens of times and analyzed their riffs), these "death-doom" songs are definitely not gothic metal, they are something else.


Last edited by Diplomate on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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ᴎostalgiʞK
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:27 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Argentina, Brazil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:58 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
They still have some characteristics that make them similar. Tremolo picking, blast beats, riffs that are recognizable as black metal riffs


Nononononnonononnononononononnonononononnononononononononono. No.
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OpsiusCato wrote:
It's in my Goatfangs text.file
Hilarious stupid comment that MalconInTheMETAL wrote:
Everyone calls Black Sabbath heavy metal, but by today's standards they aren't at all

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:07 pm 
 

ᴎostalgiʞK wrote:

Nononononnonononnononononononnonononononnononononononononono. No.

Is this an attempt at trolling?
How can you be black metal if you don't have black metal riffs? That would be ridiculous, it's the same as labelling something as gothic metal when it has very little gothic rock influences!

I have updated my post with more examples of the dichotomy between death/doom and gothic metal. If you can't hear it, then there's nothing I can do.

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TheGrimWombat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 1517
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:09 pm 
 

Look, dude. You can have your opinions, and that's great, but they are wrong and no one is going to agree with you.

It might actually be worse than Goatfangs, since I don't think even he'd be calling any of this death/doom.
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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:16 pm 
 

TheGrimWombat wrote:
Look, dude. You can have your opinions, and that's great, but they are wrong and no one is going to agree with you.

It might actually be worse than Goatfangs, since I don't think even he'd be calling any of this death/doom.

All right, let's pretend I agree that these songs are not death/doom and not even melodic death/doom. What are they then? They aren't gothic metal, so what are they? I haven't seen a single argument from you that would prove they are indeed gothic metal.

TheGrimWombat wrote:
Look, dude. You can have your opinions, and that's great, but they are wrong and no one is going to agree with you.

It might actually be worse than Goatfangs, since I don't think even he'd be calling any of this death/doom.

Sure, dude, these two songs have nothing to do with death/doom, pure 100% gothic rock!

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Listen to these songs from start to end and tell me they have 0% of death or doom influence and are 100% gothic metal.

Ok guys, I'm probably coming across wrong. I indeed believe Tristania are death-doom or at least melodic death-doom, but seeing how negatively you reacted to that, I won't argue about that. They are not death-doom, ok. But they aren't gothic metal either! So please tell me what genre they belong to and please post some songs with similar riffs. Then I will admit my error and stop this. But right now I haven't seen a single proof in favour of them being gothic metal. Morrigan said you need to have gothic rock influence to be gothic metal, well, I don't hear it.


Last edited by Diplomate on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 687
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:29 pm 
 

Just drop it already. You can have your own opinions, but that doesn't mean that they are correct or that we have to agree with them.
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I'm sure he would have pushed strongly for them to be included. I'm guessing there was a fight among the mods over whether to include them, and it ended with Metantoine being imprisoned in Napero's Finnish ice wizard tower.

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Midnightwards666
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 626
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:32 pm 
 

Heavy Metal C-3PO thinks this discussion should end right here, so we can make room for more productive queries. It seems like the final verdict on the genre has already been made, and there's little to discuss. No user nor even staffer is obliged to agree with the final judgement, but one has to accept and move on. Even if it is a huge issue, what can you do? It's their site, they can do what they want with it... continuously arguing won't change anything.
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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:33 pm 
 

Storm of the Light's Bane wrote:
Just drop it already. You can have your own opinions, but that doesn't mean that they are correct or that we have to agree with them.

The problem is that you aren't arguing about the gothic metal part, you are arguing about the death/doom one. Where's the gothic rock influence in these songs? If there is none, then it's not gothic metal, it's something else. I thought it could be called melodic death-doom or at least melodic death metal, but you don't agree with me. I admit my mistake, these songs are not death-doom. But what are they then?
Could you please show me where is the gothic rock influence in these songs?

Spoiler: show
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

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Bonziepsycho
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 83
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:45 pm 
 

Bonziepsycho wrote:
Knuckle Dragger's genre is fine, except I think Hardcore should be added to the tag; their three releases prior to the new ep were very hardcore, and less so death metal. So "Powerviolence/Grindcore/Hardcore/Death Metal."
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Kn ... 3540450521
https://knuckledraggertn.bandcamp.com/ (4-Way Split, Pinion / Knuckle Dragger, self titled)

Also, I don't think Enfold Darkness is "black" at all. They sound like Technical/Melodic Death Metal. I mean, their similar artists tab literally has TBDM, Inferi, Skeletonwitch, and Fallujah as their top four (all over 15 votes)
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/En ... ness/84957
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 0DD3C00CC8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIjIOr-oDbU


I'm glad to see some notorious bands become accepted recently, but I feel that a few need a slight change to their genre.

Agoraphobic Nosebleed's genre is fine except Cybergrind needs to be added to the Grindcore tag (Cybergrind/Grindcore, Sludge/Doom Metal). They play more straightforward grind on Honky Reduction and Agorapocalypse, but are far more on the electronic cyber side of grind on Frozen Corpse Stuffed With Dope and--especially--Altered States of America.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ag ... 3540453905
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2eIf6fxs-I
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3qBpKgHjJ4
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m_IYjBhlbU
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J2UrXH5tds

Full of Hell's genre makes sense, somewhat, but they definitely play powerviolence and noise on their newest album. Might it just be better to condense the genre to "Powerviolence/Grindcore/Death Metal, Noise" (since the noise is played separate from the main genre, such as single tracks or segments of songs, or like the full EPs) and write in the notes that they shifted to a more deathgrind sound on their last two albums?
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Fu ... 3540438869
* https://fullofhell.bandcamp.com/album/weeping-choir (noise and powerviolence)
* https://fullofhell.bandcamp.com/album/t ... ng-ecstasy (no noise, but powerviolence)
* https://fullofhell.bandcamp.com/album/a ... eavy-light (I know this was a one off collaboration, but it is definitely "noise" and "powerviolence" to describe the later genre)
* https://neurotrecordings.bandcamp.com/a ... ike-i-ache (Another one off collaboration that fits the noise and powerviolence in the later style)

I discovered Gutalax who needs a slight change to their genre: Goregrind/Grind 'n' Roll.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Gutalax/3540310608
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PO6HZKU-IM
* https://gutalax2.bandcamp.com/

I've also seen that Slam has been added as a genre, and here are two band's I've added that fit this tag:
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ma ... 3540408586
* https://mancubus1.bandcamp.com/album/yo ... el-ep-2015


* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Re ... 3540407912
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgcVYunQed8 (sorry, I could only find a live video)
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0bdTK24pQ
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xlu4gBYeYE


Enough of the obnoxious blocks of texts; you're burying the productivity in this thread.

Also, I think Elder needs a slight extension to their genre. They have shifted to having more Psychedelic stoner/progressive rock elements, while still being stoner/doom metal. I think they should be extended to Psychedelic Stoner/Doom/Progressive Metal/Rock due to their two newest records--mostly the newest.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Elder/94478
* https://beholdtheelder.bandcamp.com/alb ... ting-world
* https://beholdtheelder.bandcamp.com/album/lore


And two bands I think should have Avant-garde applied to their genre are Flummox and Sykotik Sinfoney; both are very reminiscent and obviously influenced by Mr. Bungle/Fantômas/Faith No More. Both have remarkably odd song structures and "bizzare" riffs in most songs.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Sy ... 3540313811
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgLM2R35WAg
&
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Flummox/3540353049
* https://flummoxed.bandcamp.com/


Inhuman Nature is definitely defined as "crossover" on their new album. They have some crossover elements, with more hardcore elements on their first EP; vice versa on their new album.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/In ... 3540431445
* https://inhumannature.bandcamp.com/album/inhuman-nature

Tore Fagerheim is an artist I've been meaning to bring up for a while now. His full length album, which got him accepted, was pure Melodic Death Metal; however, he needs additional tags. He ventures into pure Metalcore at times. He also has many singles, of many different styles. I think his genre needs to be extended to "Melodic Death Metal, Metalcore, Various." I think the comma works better because he ventures between the really melodic melodies and then into harsh palmuting; not really musically combining the two at the same time.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/To ... 3540424849
* https://metalguitarstuff.bandcamp.com/a ... lking-fire
* https://metalguitarstuff.bandcamp.com/t ... king-track
* https://metalguitarstuff.bandcamp.com/t ... tic-ballad
* https://metalguitarstuff.bandcamp.com/t ... king-track

Also, I think Rambo Hates Rainbows needs a slight addition, too. They released a Noisecore album in the middle of their discography, so "Black/Sludge/Doom Metal, Noisecore, Electronic." Of the few releases they have, it's the only other full length and the second longest release, so it's a legitimate style they've played. I can't find the first demo, but it included all three styles as well separately.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ra ... 3540407237
* https://8bitexternal.bandcamp.com/album ... ship-grind

Sorry for the long list, guys. Just get around to it when you're able to.
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Last edited by Bonziepsycho on Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:04 am, edited 11 times in total.
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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:22 pm 
 

Death Metal (early), Blackened Death Metal (later), because their new album is Blackened Death:
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Hate/2750

Latest album:
https://hate.bandcamp.com/album/auric-gates-of-veles

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PDS
The Folk One

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 pm
Posts: 1550
Location: A forest on an island!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:50 pm 
 

ThStealthP wrote:
Death Metal (early), Blackened Death Metal (later), because their new album is Blackened Death:
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Hate/2750

Latest album:
https://hate.bandcamp.com/album/auric-gates-of-veles


They've been blackened for the past couple albums at least. Changed.

Bonziepsycho wrote:
List of bands


I got you on Enfold Darkness, though I do hear the black metal in it. (See Liberator of Mages, a good amount of the first album). Going to meet both ways with teh genre change.
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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 108
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:17 am 
 

Thanks :3

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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:54 am 
 

Don't sounds straight up death metal really, rather blackened death metal to be honest:
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Su ... 3540326674

Check all their stuff:
https://sulphuraeon-vanrecords.bandcamp.com/
https://sulphuraeon.bandcamp.com/

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Midnightwards666
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 626
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:15 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
Sirenia's first two albums are a good example of great symphonic gothic metal, but further releases are too watered-down to be considered gothic metal. I propose to split their genre into three phases, first one is symphonic gothic metal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckJY8KiuZDk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00p2f8H3oUU
Second phase is a little bit hard to classify, but I would say it's symphonic gothic/power/nu metal. You can definitely hear power and mallcore influences, the latter especially in the second song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njPWBTIv9qw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouZQ7rgAq-I
Third phase is straight-up symphonic power metal à la Nightwish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGePool-Heg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=323wCp6ZTaE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vdsvIdiXz0

If you feel like three phases is too much for this band, then I believe it can be something like "Symphonic gothic metal (early), symphonic power metal (later)". But current classification is too misleading. Gothic metal is a very watered-down genre, so I think being a little bit more "elitist" in defining it will benefit the archives.

This post was made back in February, but got no response. Thank you, Diplomate, for providing the links... as that means I don't have to. I would like to suggest a genre change for Sirenia.

Sirenia have a discography of 8 albums. The first two albums are indeed gothic metal - very similar to early Tristania albums. The next two albums, the gothic elements are much less promiment... and past the fifth album, the gothic metal is completely gone... it's just symphonic power metal with a female vocalist and a growler. It's closer to Epica than Nightwish, both musically and vocally. Listing them with three genres would be excessive. I would go with the second suggestion.
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Pessipath
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:00 pm
Posts: 100
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:03 pm 
 

Bonziepsycho wrote:
Bonziepsycho wrote:
Knuckle Dragger's genre is fine, except I think Hardcore should be added to the tag; their three releases prior to the new ep were very hardcore, and less so death metal. So "Powerviolence/Grindcore/Hardcore/Death Metal."
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Kn ... 3540450521
https://knuckledraggertn.bandcamp.com/ (4-Way Split, Pinion / Knuckle Dragger, self titled)

Also, I don't think Enfold Darkness is "black" at all. They sound like Technical/Melodic Death Metal. I mean, their similar artists tab literally has TBDM, Inferi, Skeletonwitch, and Fallujah as their top four (all over 15 votes)
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/En ... ness/84957
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 0DD3C00CC8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIjIOr-oDbU


I'm glad to see some notorious bands become accepted recently, but I feel that a few need a slight change to their genre.

Agoraphobic Nosebleed's genre is fine except Cybergrind needs to be added to the Grindcore tag (Cybergrind/Grindcore, Sludge/Doom Metal). They play more straightforward grind on Honky Reduction and Agorapocalypse, but are far more on the electronic cyber side of grind on Frozen Corpse Stuffed With Dope and--especially--Altered States of America.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ag ... 3540453905
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2eIf6fxs-I
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3qBpKgHjJ4
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m_IYjBhlbU
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J2UrXH5tds

Full of Hell's genre makes sense, somewhat, but they definitely play powerviolence and noise on their newest album. Might it just be better to condense the genre to "Powerviolence/Grindcore/Death Metal, Noise" (since the noise is played separate from the main genre, such as single tracks or segments of songs, or like the full EPs) and write in the notes that they shifted to a more deathgrind sound on their last two albums?
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Fu ... 3540438869
* https://fullofhell.bandcamp.com/album/weeping-choir (noise and powerviolence)
* https://fullofhell.bandcamp.com/album/t ... ng-ecstasy (no noise, but powerviolence)
* https://fullofhell.bandcamp.com/album/a ... eavy-light (I know this was a one off collaboration, but it is definitely "noise" and "powerviolence" to describe the later genre)
* https://neurotrecordings.bandcamp.com/a ... ike-i-ache (Another one off collaboration that fits the noise and powerviolence in the later style)

I discovered Gutalax who needs a slight change to their genre: Goregrind/Grind 'n' Roll.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Gutalax/3540310608
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PO6HZKU-IM
* https://gutalax2.bandcamp.com/

I've also seen that Slam has been added as a genre, and here are two band's I've added that fit this tag:
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ma ... 3540408586
* https://mancubus1.bandcamp.com/album/yo ... el-ep-2015

* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Re ... 3540407912
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgcVYunQed8 (sorry, I could only find a live video)
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0bdTK24pQ
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xlu4gBYeYE


Enough of the obnoxious blocks of texts; you're burying the productivity in this thread.

Also, I think Elder needs a slight extension to their genre. They have shifted to having more Psychedelic stoner/progressive rock elements, while still being stoner/doom metal. I think they should be extended to Psychedelic Stoner/Doom/Progressive Metal/Rock due to their two newest records--mostly the newest.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Elder/94478
* https://beholdtheelder.bandcamp.com/alb ... ting-world
* https://beholdtheelder.bandcamp.com/album/lore

And two bands I think should have Avant-garde applied to their genre are Flummox and Sykotik Sinfoney; both are very reminiscent and obviously influenced by Mr. Bungle/Fantômas/Faith No More. Both have remarkably odd song structures and "bizzare" riffs in most songs.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Sy ... 3540313811
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgLM2R35WAg
&
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Flummox/3540353049
* https://flummoxed.bandcamp.com/

Inhuman Nature is definitely defined as "crossover" on their new album. They have some crossover elements, with more hardcore elements on their first EP; vice versa on their new album.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/In ... 3540431445
* https://inhumannature.bandcamp.com/album/inhuman-nature

Tore Fagerheim is an artist I've been meaning to bring up for a while now. His full length album, which got him accepted, was pure Melodic Death Metal; however, he needs additional tags. He ventures into pure Metalcore at times. He also has many singles, of many different styles. I think his genre needs to be extended to "Melodic Death Metal, Metalcore, Various." I think the comma works better because he ventures between the really melodic melodies and then into harsh palmuting; not really musically combining the two at the same time.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/To ... 3540424849
* https://metalguitarstuff.bandcamp.com/a ... lking-fire
* https://metalguitarstuff.bandcamp.com/t ... king-track
* https://metalguitarstuff.bandcamp.com/t ... tic-ballad
* https://metalguitarstuff.bandcamp.com/t ... king-track

Also, I think Rambo Hates Rainbows needs a slight addition, too. They released a Noisecore album in the middle of their discography, so "Black/Sludge/Doom Metal, Noisecore, Electronic." Of the few releases they have, it's the only other full length and the second longest release, so it's a legitimate style they've played. I can't find the first demo, but it included all three styles as well separately.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ra ... 3540407237
* https://8bitexternal.bandcamp.com/album ... ship-grind

Sorry for the long list, guys. Just get around to it when you're able to.


For Knuckledragger we need to remove powerviolence, they got nothing to do with that genre.
Deathgrind works and I'd even suggest deathcore since they like to use lots of Disembodied/Converge esque sounds and dissonance. (Yeah I know it's weird to call a band that sounds like them deathcore but deathcore is death metal + metalcore and or hardcore after all).

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Bonziepsycho
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 83
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:05 am 
 

^^ No. The only album with death metal riffs is their newest EP. Their three previous releases were abrasive, riffless punk (Powerviolence/Grindcore/Hardcore). And, just because Deathcore is a combination of death metal and hardcore doesn’t merit some bands who play these two styles this tag; there’s a reason you’ll see some bands with “Death Metal/Hardcore” as their genre as opposed to just “Deathcore.”
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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:42 am 
 

Deathcore (early), Symphonic Deathcore (later):
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Be ... 3540391069

Discography:
https://beforetheharvest.bandcamp.com

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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 687
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:17 pm 
 

Bonziepsycho wrote:
Also, I think Elder needs a slight extension to their genre. They have shifted to having more Psychedelic stoner/progressive rock elements, while still being stoner/doom metal. I think they should be extended to Psychedelic Stoner/Doom/Progressive Metal/Rock due to their two newest records--mostly the newest.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Elder/94478
* https://beholdtheelder.bandcamp.com/alb ... ting-world
* https://beholdtheelder.bandcamp.com/album/lore

I personally agree with including prog, but TSIR and I discussed this back when I added psyche and agreed to wait on prog until their next full length, which should be later this year iiirc.
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Xenophon wrote:
I'm sure he would have pushed strongly for them to be included. I'm guessing there was a fight among the mods over whether to include them, and it ended with Metantoine being imprisoned in Napero's Finnish ice wizard tower.

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joecubbie
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:03 pm
Posts: 93
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:44 pm 
 

Bumping this

joecubbie wrote:
I think The Night Flight Orchestra's genre should be changed to melodic hard rock, AOR, or perhaps both (Melodic Hard Rock/AOR). While hard rock is the parent genre of these styles, when I think of pure hard rock, I think of bands like Aerosmith, Whitesnake, and AC/DC. NFO's sound seems too melodic and polished to be simply labeled hard rock. Here is their latest album for consideration...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=O ... UQUrEeCKRs

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Bonziepsycho
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 83
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:20 pm 
 

Storm of the Light's Bane wrote:
I personally agree with including prog, but TSIR and I discussed this back when I added psyche and agreed to wait on prog until their next full length, which should be later this year iiirc.
Is that a no to adding “Rock” to the back of the tag now? I still feel the last two albums have been more stoner rock than anything.
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Petrus_Steele
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:19 am
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:46 pm 
 

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Corrin/100313

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVDYA2lBrUI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6huXBC8S0UY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI1HItpxxJw

As you can see, this band is on the site. However, I come to realize that some Melodic Death Metal influence can be attached to Metalcore, and with this old band in particular, I can't tell if it's Melodic Death Metal or Metalcore. Either way, why not just edit the labeling to Melodic Death Metal/Metalcore, like other bands on the site?

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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:59 am 
 

Symphonic Black Metal (early), Depressive Black Metal (later):
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ad ... 3540348478

Discography:
https://adventsorrow.bandcamp.com/

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PDS
The Folk One

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 pm
Posts: 1550
Location: A forest on an island!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:21 am 
 

Going from newest to eldest.

ThStealthP wrote:
Symphonic Black Metal (early), Depressive Black Metal (later):
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ad ... 3540348478

Discography:
https://adventsorrow.bandcamp.com/


Personally, I can hear the death metal in the early EP, it's like that slight melo death/melo black, since symphonic stuff lots of time has melodic as a bit of a given (YMMV), it should be fine. There's not really a 'blackened' equivalent to death metal and the influences tag is a little tacky. I think it will be fine as is.

Petrus_Steele wrote:
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Corrin/100313

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVDYA2lBrUI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6huXBC8S0UY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI1HItpxxJw

As you can see, this band is on the site. However, I come to realize that some Melodic Death Metal influence can be attached to Metalcore, and with this old band in particular, I can't tell if it's Melodic Death Metal or Metalcore. Either way, why not just edit the labeling to Melodic Death Metal/Metalcore, like other bands on the site?


Changed.

joecubbie wrote:
Bumping this

joecubbie wrote:
I think The Night Flight Orchestra's genre should be changed to melodic hard rock, AOR, or perhaps both (Melodic Hard Rock/AOR). While hard rock is the parent genre of these styles, when I think of pure hard rock, I think of bands like Aerosmith, Whitesnake, and AC/DC. NFO's sound seems too melodic and polished to be simply labeled hard rock. Here is their latest album for consideration...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=O ... UQUrEeCKRs


Changed to Hard Rock/AOR (since that sort of encompases the melodic and progressive bits). Though, if someone that actually has photoshop could do a better updated logo, that'll be nice.

ThStealthP wrote:


Done.

ThStealthP wrote:
Don't sounds straight up death metal really, rather blackened death metal to be honest:
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Su ... 3540326674

Check all their stuff:
https://sulphuraeon-vanrecords.bandcamp.com/
https://sulphuraeon.bandcamp.com/


Also pretty melodic, it's more bits and bobs since the demo but it's been growing. It's not like say, Dismember where the melodic bits is just he solo. God I fucking love this band.

Bonziepsycho wrote:
The List


Mancubus has been changed. Repulsive Infestation I found one song on their Reverbnation, but I'm not confident enough, the song I heard was about 60/40 on the slam and with the other songs, It could go any other way. I'll do some searching around. Keep it uncrossed atm.

Sykotic Synfoney added the Avant-garde tag. Definitely sounds like Mr. Bungle's first funky album. Was tempted to put the funk rock genre but I think the Avant-garde part might be good since the alternative tag hen used is a bit of a toss-up.

Flummox is a fucking mess. The latest album doesn't even seem to be metal, but the pervading elements is there in the past albums. Changing it to "Avant-garde Doom/stoner metal, Progressive/Psychedelic Rock"

This is all I'm going to do for the night. I'll try to get more of the non-PW grind stuff ASAP.
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I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock. Not just that but live music should hit you in the genitals. It might not if you don't use good amplifiers and your modelling shit goes straight out of the PA. But good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS.

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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:42 am 
 

Perfect, here there is more:

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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:46 am 
 

Slam/Brutal Death Metal/Deathcore:
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ar ... 3540392062

Discography:
https://architectofdissonanceofficial.bandcamp.com/

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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:49 am 
 

Deathcore:
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Bu ... 3540387098

Discography:
https://burythememories.bandcamp.com/

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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:53 am 
 

Slam/Brutal Deathcore:
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Acrania/3540359582

Discography:
https://uniqueleaderrecords.bandcamp.co ... of-the-end
https://uniqueleaderrecords.bandcamp.co ... n-dystopia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9edbDACaFo

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