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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Edgy Metal Noob Catchphrase Dispenser

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 547
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 9:24 am 
 

Neither are really genres. They were scenes of music mostly defined by which location they developed from (LA and Washington) and the bands themselves tended to sound practically nothing alike to eachother. The genre tags themselves are used very inconsistently as well. Big names from each scene (Twisted Sister and Melvins for example) don't have either tag applied onto them on their pages. What is the reasoning behind using these genre tags on this site?
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Kennermahn
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:36 am
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 10:15 am 
 

Well, they're actually considered styles of sorts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grunge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glam_metal

Alice in Chains and Nirvana, for instance, didn't sound extremely similar but did definitely share some things in common, in terms of sound. Grunge has a characteristic sound, influenced by punk and metal, which is not the same as that of many bands that have been labeled "alternative rock".

Same with glam metal, it had a particular sound, which isn't the same as other bands you could label as "heavy metal/hard rock".

It would be really unhelpful to call Alice in Chains simply heavy metal because they have a sound which is not really like that of many traditional heavy metal bands. Same as Mötley Crüe with glam metal. These tags help distinguish a very particular kind of sound these scenes (and their imitators) had, sometimes I wish they were used more often, it helps when you're looking for those sounds in the Archives. It's the same reason the tag "RAC" is used here.

Twisted Sister and Melvins not having respectively those tags (which I believe they should have) doesn't make them any less necessary.

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Edgy Metal Noob Catchphrase Dispenser

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 547
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 10:49 am 
 

Kennermahn wrote:
Well, they're actually considered styles of sorts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grunge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glam_metal

Alice in Chains and Nirvana, for instance, didn't sound extremely similar but did definitely share some things in common, in terms of sound. Grunge has a characteristic sound, influenced by punk and metal, which is not the same as that of many bands that have been labeled "alternative rock".

Same with glam metal, it had a particular sound, which isn't the same as other bands you could label as "heavy metal/hard rock".

It would be really unhelpful to call Alice in Chains simply heavy metal because they have a sound which is not really like that of many traditional heavy metal bands. Same as Mötley Crüe with glam metal. These tags help distinguish a very particular kind of sound these scenes (and their imitators) had, sometimes I wish they were used more often, it helps when you're looking for those sounds in the Archives. It's the same reason the tag "RAC" is used here.

Twisted Sister and Melvins not having respectively those tags (which I believe they should have) doesn't make them any less necessary.

Wikipedia is really bad with musical genres so I wouldn't recommend linking those pages as they tend to be inaccurate due to using mainstream music journalism as a "reliable" source. You did explain grunge as a style to me but I'm not completely sure how glam metal is actual distinct and not just heavy metal and hard rock but commercially friendly.

But anyways I'm actually fine with AIC using the grunge tag since MA genre tags are trying to be a simplification and "grunge" is a simple term to use to describe the eclecticness (From what I've seen "Various" is supposed to be a last resort.) of the band. Traditonal heavy metal is the only genre they play that cannot be wrapped on that umbrella.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5997
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 3:47 pm 
 

Wikipedia is fairly accurate in this regard. Both have been widely recognized as distinct genres/styles for decades now. Admittedly, I'm not really sure of your point otherwise. Feels akin to arguing that "power metal" is just melodic heavy metal, or that metalcore shouldn't be used as a term because it's just a mix of metal and hardcore. There's more to those styles than just that.
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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Edgy Metal Noob Catchphrase Dispenser

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 547
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 4:50 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Wikipedia is fairly accurate in this regard. Both have been widely recognized as distinct genres/styles for decades now. Admittedly, I'm not really sure of your point otherwise. Feels akin to arguing that "power metal" is just melodic heavy metal, or that metalcore shouldn't be used as a term because it's just a mix of metal and hardcore. There's more to those styles than just that.

Well I just keep hearing various posts on these boards asserting that either grunge or glam are not actually genres, so it's not outta nowhere.

Here's an example: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=133975&p=3018339&hilit=Scene#p3018339
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recyclage wrote:
When a labeling of music gets stucked in the past, than germans are still nazi

recyclage wrote:
Anyone who writes "The Deftones" isn't trustworthy.

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BuriedUnborn
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:01 pm
Posts: 318
Location: Inside your house
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 8:13 pm 
 

I personally don't see "Grunge" as a genre, but rather as a scene or movement, similar to "NWOBHM" but encompassing a wide array of different alternative genres.

While I wouldn't label any band only as "Grunge", since it tells you practically nothing about their genre, having the genre in the archives is probably as good as having "NWOBHM" as a genre tag as well, it just helps people find bands from that era. What I'd just suggest is getting rid of the term "grunge" for any bands past the mid '90s since, again, "Grunge" is just an umbrella term and if we go by aesthetics or certain styles then there are a lot of bands that we could call "grunge" in the modern day, but we simply don't because it's 2022 and the movement died over 25 years ago.
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Kennermahn
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:36 am
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:24 pm 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
Derigin wrote:
Wikipedia is fairly accurate in this regard. Both have been widely recognized as distinct genres/styles for decades now. Admittedly, I'm not really sure of your point otherwise. Feels akin to arguing that "power metal" is just melodic heavy metal, or that metalcore shouldn't be used as a term because it's just a mix of metal and hardcore. There's more to those styles than just that.

Well I just keep hearing various posts on these boards asserting that either grunge or glam are not actually genres, so it's not outta nowhere.

Here's an example: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=133975&p=3018339&hilit=Scene#p3018339


And the people posting these posts could be wrong, couldn't they?

BuriedUnborn wrote:
While I wouldn't label any band only as "Grunge", since it tells you practically nothing about their genre, having the genre in the archives is probably as good as having "NWOBHM" as a genre tag as well, it just helps people find bands from that era. What I'd just suggest is getting rid of the term "grunge" for any bands past the mid '90s since, again, "Grunge" is just an umbrella term and if we go by aesthetics or certain styles then there are a lot of bands that we could call "grunge" in the modern day, but we simply don't because it's 2022 and the movement died over 25 years ago.


No, sorry, with all due respect but that's entirely wrong. The grunge tag does help when looking for a particular sound, I can tell because I've used it. If you tell me ALL bands (perhaps there's an exception, who knows) with the grunge tag sound completely similar to the thousands of bands that have the same tags (without grunge) then I guess we perceive music in a very different way.

However, I agree that the "grunge" tag is a bit outdated these days, for newer bands I believe the post-grunge tag should be used instead, which conveys pretty much the same.

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BuriedUnborn
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:01 pm
Posts: 318
Location: Inside your house
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:57 pm 
 

Kennermahn wrote:
However, I agree that the "grunge" tag is a bit outdated these days, for newer bands I believe the post-grunge tag should be used instead, which conveys pretty much the same.


I see absolutely no real similarities between Nirvana and Alice in Chains, or Mad Season and Skin Yard, nor between Stone Temple Pilots and Only Living Witness (which are tagged as "Grunge" in the site). Maybe you find it but I certainly don't, the most similar things I can think these bands may share is that they often use pentatonic scales, aesthetic and lyrical themes, but that's about it. I've heard tons of bands that sound like Nirvana, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, etc., yet they're never considered "grunge", so I really reject "grunge" as a genre, at most it's an umbrella term. In many cases it's even cited that the genre is "influenced by Punk" even though Alice in Chains, STP or Soundgarden barely have any punk elements in their music, and both AiC and Soundgarden were considered metal bands before grunge was even a thing, hell, AiC used to play glam.

Post-grunge and Grunge are, ironically, not that much similar to each other either. I've noticed that the common "post-grunge" sound is often simplistic alternative rock songs with similar lyrical topics and aesthetic to that of grunge, but the fact that the genre itself is called "post-grunge" instead of just "grunge", because "grunge is dead", just makes it clearer that grunge was a scene/movement, rather than a genre, otherwise the term wouldn't be dropped.
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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Edgy Metal Noob Catchphrase Dispenser

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 547
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:21 am 
 

BuriedUnborn wrote:
Kennermahn wrote:
However, I agree that the "grunge" tag is a bit outdated these days, for newer bands I believe the post-grunge tag should be used instead, which conveys pretty much the same.


I see absolutely no real similarities between Nirvana and Alice in Chains, or Mad Season and Skin Yard, nor between Stone Temple Pilots and Only Living Witness (which are tagged as "Grunge" in the site). Maybe you find it but I certainly don't, the most similar things I can think these bands may share is that they often use pentatonic scales, aesthetic and lyrical themes, but that's about it. I've heard tons of bands that sound like Nirvana, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, etc., yet they're never considered "grunge", so I really reject "grunge" as a genre, at most it's an umbrella term. In many cases it's even cited that the genre is "influenced by Punk" even though Alice in Chains, STP or Soundgarden barely have any punk elements in their music, and both AiC and Soundgarden were considered metal bands before grunge was even a thing, hell, AiC used to play glam.

Post-grunge and Grunge are, ironically, not that much similar to each other either. I've noticed that the common "post-grunge" sound is often simplistic alternative rock songs with similar lyrical topics and aesthetic to that of grunge, but the fact that the genre itself is called "post-grunge" instead of just "grunge", because "grunge is dead", just makes it clearer that grunge was a scene/movement, rather than a genre, otherwise the term wouldn't be dropped.

Exactly. Acting like pure musical movements with no distinct sound warrant genre tags is practically the same as saying that stuff like "Pirate Metal", "Hentaigrind", or "NSBM" should be used as genre tags.
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recyclage wrote:
When a labeling of music gets stucked in the past, than germans are still nazi

recyclage wrote:
Anyone who writes "The Deftones" isn't trustworthy.

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yungstirjoey666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:47 am
Posts: 636
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:12 pm 
 

I think Alice in Chains should be called "alternative metal" instead. Also glam metal imo is more of a hard rock subgenre than metal.

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In_Zane
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:46 am 
 

yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I think Alice in Chains should be called "alternative metal" instead. Also glam metal imo is more of a hard rock subgenre than metal.

In Sweden it's even called ''Glam rock'', and not ''Glam metal''.
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Bonziepsycho
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 155
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:38 pm 
 

In_Zane wrote:
In Sweden it's even called ''Glam rock'', and not ''Glam metal''.

Glam rock is a different genre from glam metal.
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Nigelpippi
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:10 am
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Location: International
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:41 am 
 

Slang (album) by Album-oriented rock band Def Leppard is a Grunge album

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NurseWitchWound
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:33 am
Posts: 33
Location: Northern Mariana Islands
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:06 pm 
 

Grunge is definitely a genre, a mix of Metal and Punk and Alternative/Noise Rock that started with Green River. There was a big underground in the genre with bands like 64 spiders and shit and a lot of bands internationally that play that sound as far as Korea, there are new bands that still play grunge, there's even post-grunge that was based on watering that sound even more than what it became in the 90s with Nirvana becoming rockstars.
In_Zane wrote:
yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I think Alice in Chains should be called "alternative metal" instead. Also glam metal imo is more of a hard rock subgenre than metal.

In Sweden it's even called ''Glam rock'', and not ''Glam metal''.

Glam Rock is completely different to Glam Metal.
Glam Rock was big in the 70s with bands like Slade, (early pre-synthpop) Japan, Cheap Trick, and also Gary Glitter (nonce) and David Bowie.
Glam Metal started in the 80s with bands like Motley Crue, Poison, GnR, Hanoi Rocks etc. although influenced by New York Dolls.
yungstirjoey666 wrote:
I think Alice in Chains should be called "alternative metal" instead. Also glam metal imo is more of a hard rock subgenre than metal.

Alternative Metal isn't a genre though, it's an umbrella term for these things:
• Alternative Rock/Metal like Faith No More or Helmet.
• Funk Metal like Primus or Living Color
• Grunge with more of a metal influence like Alice in Chains and Soundgarden
• Nu-Metal like Deftones and SoaD
• Rapcore like Biohazard or Rap Rock/Metal like Lone Ranger or someshit LOL.
• Hard Alternative which isn't metal at all like Urban Dance Squad and RATM

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10527
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:54 pm 
 

"Wikipedia is not accurate"
"So what's your source, then?"
"These forum posts"

...Really?
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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Edgy Metal Noob Catchphrase Dispenser

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 547
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:09 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
"Wikipedia is not accurate"
"So what's your source, then?"
"These forum posts"

...Really?

You guys know a lot more about metal than anyone else.

Do you really think VH1 or whatever mainstream music shitstain (where Wikipedia gets it's sources) gets things accurately or even cares to do so?
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recyclage wrote:
When a labeling of music gets stucked in the past, than germans are still nazi

recyclage wrote:
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yungstirjoey666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:47 am
Posts: 636
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:19 am 
 

I think part of the reason why the glam metal label is controversial as a music style is because of how limited "true" glam metal is; the music genre is mostly defined by the unique fashion and scene of the 80s. Bands such as Twisted Sister, Skid Row, and W.A.S.P. are often refuted towards pure heavy metal, while others such as Bon Jovi and Poison are refuted as pop-rock. This only leaves a handful of bands such as Motley Crue and Pantera. The one thing they all have most in common when it specifically comes of music is that they're some sort of variation of 80s hard rock, and hard rock at the time often straddled between heavy metal and pop-rock.

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thereflectingskin
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:38 pm
Posts: 108
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:49 pm 
 

At a certain point i think one has to accept that genres are not entirely about sound and musical characteristics. Trying to abstract entirely from the actual history of the way certain styles and groups of bands were talked about, both contemporarily and in retrospect (which yes, has to do with things like, for instance, the ways which music journalists spoke about or tried to define things), to leave only the hard evidence of musical similarity just isn't possible past a certain point; the process of categorization is rarely so clean.

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RestlessChild
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:33 am 
 

Glam metal is a style of heavy metal. Grunge is also a style of hard rock from the 90's.

What are you even complaining about?

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RestlessChild
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:35 am 
 

Seems to me you want to erase history. Ok, Hitler. Give it a go. Good luck.

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RestlessChild
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:39 am 
 

This site does a good enough job of trying to hide some of metal history already. As if that wasn't enough damage (or cringe), you need more eradication!!! HA

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Edgy Metal Noob Catchphrase Dispenser

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 547
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:45 am 
 

RestlessChild wrote:
Glam metal is a style of heavy metal. Grunge is also a style of hard rock from the 90's.

What are you even complaining about?

I don't know how you can be so confident about "grunge" even though there's like, 20 different definitions of it depending on who you ask. The Seattle bands themselves rejected the term and sounded nothing alike to eachother.

RestlessChild wrote:
Seems to me you want to erase history. Ok, Hitler. Give it a go. Good luck.

:lol:
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recyclage wrote:
When a labeling of music gets stucked in the past, than germans are still nazi

recyclage wrote:
Anyone who writes "The Deftones" isn't trustworthy.

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RestlessChild
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:49 am 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
The Seattle bands themselves rejected the term and sounded nothing alike to eachother.


Lemmy always rejected the "heavy metal" term. So have the Sabs.

Your point?

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RestlessChild
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:55 am 
 

Im not out to defend Grunge or whatever. I don't listen to it. However I will defend glam metal.

But the overall point here, man, is that you might regret your words 2, 5 or 10 years from now. And this fucking site will keep it all cos they're fucking assholes themselves. And people will judge you based on what you said 10 or 5 years ago. It's a flawed system. But these "mods" or whatever are fucking assholes so just be careful what you say. I used to hate glam metal when I was in high school and now I like it, of course. Nu metal I used to hate with a passion and now I don't mind it. Like the Sabbath song "Changes"... it is true. Everything changes including the way you think. My philosophy is: if you don't like something, just ignore it. Plain and simple.

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KingSpooky
The Man, The Machine, The Legend

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:24 pm
Posts: 4462
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:12 pm 
 

Not too surprised that this thread evolved into total shit.

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