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Muhammadabbadabba
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:04 am 
 

As I'm going through all bands with "racism" as a lyrical theme, I have noticed submitters (likely innocently) assumed it implied a given band's lyrics discussed racism as a social issue as opposed to a band espousing positions that are racist in message or theme. Not too long ago, I noticed something was amiss with the band Six Reasons to Kill when the lyrical themes originally read "racism" which has now been revised to properly reflect their beliefs. This band is openly anti-racist and played a concert called Rage Against Racism in 2015.

Given the stigma associated with advocating racism and the potential for non-racist bands to be wrongly tagged as racist, it is prudent to go through all bands and sort out those that discuss racism as a social issue from those who are openly racist so that the artists' respective messages are accurately reflected. It is my belief that bands that are ambiguous on racism (that is, not obviously for it) and do not have printed lyrics should have racism removed from their lyrical themes unless it can be concretely proven they promote racist ideologies.

On another note, "politics" is another very broad and ambiguous category. Bands speak about social issues from a wide range of different ideological perspectives, so there is the caveat of bands discussing politics and social issues broadly, but even those that do not endorse a specific political party generally have a theme that can be identified. Kreator, Sacred Reich, Napalm Death, Cryptic Slaughter or Behind Enemy Lines are all unambiguously left-wing whereas Korrozia Metalla, Peste Noire or Graveland are all very right-wing. I know this won't be an easy task and don't expect to be resolved anytime soon, but it's something to consider.
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Kennermahn
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:28 pm 
 

Yes, I agree with this. The "Racism" tag is shared by bands with actual racist lyrics and Brujeria, for instance, who are obviously anti-racist. Perhaps "Anti-Racism" should be used instead, or perhaps something like "Commentary on Racism", for bands who deal with the issue, but don't seem to take a strong stance against it (although I don't think racists themselves see racism as a problem worth talking about). At the same time, when I read about a writer who writes about "Racism" I don't think they're racists but just discuss the issue.

Regarding Politics, I remember I used "Left-wing politics" or "Far-left politics" for a band I tried to submit but got rejected. Maybe that would be the appropiate tag for bands with political lyrics from a left-wing standpoint.

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Muhammadabbadabba
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:53 pm 
 

Kennermahn wrote:
Yes, I agree with this. The "Racism" tag is shared by bands with actual racist lyrics and Brujeria, for instance, who are obviously anti-racist. Perhaps "Anti-Racism" should be used instead, or perhaps something like "Commentary on Racism", for bands who deal with the issue, but don't seem to take a strong stance against it (although I don't think racists themselves see racism as a problem worth talking about). At the same time, when I read about a writer who writes about "Racism" I don't think they're racists but just discuss the issue.

Regarding Politics, I remember I used "Left-wing politics" or "Far-left politics" for a band I tried to submit but got rejected. Maybe that would be the appropiate tag for bands with political lyrics from a left-wing standpoint.

I propose that bands that discuss racism as a social problem should just have their lyrics tagged "social issues" especially if anti-racism isn't the focal point of the project. I know tagging bands with "social issues" presents the caveat of being too vague or broad, but it fits better than "racism" which sends the wrong message entirely or "anti-racism" which implies it features strongly in their work.

As to Brujeria, they're taking the piss or just comically exaggerating some deeply felt sentiments for the sake of theatrics and showmanship. I would definitely remove "racism" from the lyrical themes but wouldn't put "anti-racism" there unless they have a song that outright states that racism is wrong.
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Kennermahn
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:47 pm 
 

Kennermahn wrote:
I propose that bands that discuss racism as a social problem should just have their lyrics tagged "social issues" especially if anti-racism isn't the focal point of the project. I know tagging bands with "social issues" presents the caveat of being too vague or broad, but it fits better than "racism" which sends the wrong message entirely or "anti-racism" which implies it features strongly in their work.


Yes, that's a good idea.

Quote:
As to Brujeria, they're taking the piss or just comically exaggerating some deeply felt sentiments for the sake of theatrics and showmanship. I would definitely remove "racism" from the lyrical themes but wouldn't put "anti-racism" there unless they have a song that outright states that racism is wrong.


I also agree with this. They even have that "Matando güeros", which is obviously tongue in cheek but, yeah, perhaps "Anti-Racism" wouldn't be appropriate for them.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:32 pm 
 

I agree that bands with anti-racism message should say "anti-racism" so as to not be confused with bands that promote racism. That seems obvious. If the band's focus is social commentary in general with the one or two songs about it, rather than a main focus, "social issues" can be fine, too.

Not familiar with Brujeria enough to comment, but unless they do have songs that express opposition to racism, I would oppose using "anti racism" as the tag.

However, note that whitewashing actual racist bands is not acceptable. Not saying anyone here did this, but in the past I've noticed some very obviously racist bands missing the tag in the lyrical themes or using euphemisms like "nationalism".
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:00 pm 
 

Brujeria is basically (among other things) tongue-in-cheek songs about killing white people and praising Hispanic people. Without getting too political, I don't feel it'd be sincere to label that as either "racism" or "anti-racism" in the sense that those terms get understood when most people read them. "Hispanic pride" might be a better term for it.

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Muhammadabbadabba
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:37 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
I agree that bands with anti-racism message should say "anti-racism" so as to not be confused with bands that promote racism. That seems obvious. If the band's focus is social commentary in general with the one or two songs about it, rather than a main focus, "social issues" can be fine, too.

Not familiar with Brujeria enough to comment, but unless they do have songs that express opposition to racism, I would oppose using "anti racism" as the tag.

However, note that whitewashing actual racist bands is not acceptable. Not saying anyone here did this, but in the past I've noticed some very obviously racist bands missing the tag in the lyrical themes or using euphemisms like "nationalism".


I use "social issues" instead of "social commentary" for brevity; 6 letters in "issues" as opposed to 10 letters in "commentary".

I'm never one to whitewash a band's lyrics, although there are some issues of ambiguity that I believe need clarification. For the sake of searchability, I was using "White Nationalism" in place of "White Power" or "White Pride" despite the term being 6 letters longer than each. It would place various White Nationalist bands under one term as opposed to a wilderness of terms. There are also White Nationalist bands that aren't necessarily National Socialists/Fascists and vice versa, although that's another headache entirely.

For "racism," what should be the metric here? I was tagging bands that use racial epithets with the intent to demean, mock or express negative sentiment towards a distinct racial/ethnic group. There are White Nationalist bands and projects (hello, Josh Dalviken) that strictly stick to white pride or identity without mentioning other races. Conversely, there are extremely racist bands (Mudoven and Vaginal Jesus come to mind) that dedicate much more of their energy towards attacking non-whites and Jews than promoting white pride.

Not long ago, someone mentioned the "Anti-ZOG" tag as a euphemism for Anti-Semitism. Indeed, any band that expressly mentions Jews in conspiracy theories and/or expresses negative sentiments towards people on account of being Jewish deserve the label, but on a side note, are we to use "Anti-Semitism" or "Antisemitism"? Pardon the semantics, but Wikipedia's article uses the non-hyphenated form.

Different topic entirely, but another point I'd like to bring up is a united Paganism tag. Paganism is a vastly broad concept referring to a range of different pre-Christian myths in Europe and abroad, but what would be the accepted term for European religions with distinct themes? Norse Heathenry or Slavic folk religion have nothing to do with Wicca. For a while, I was using either Heathenry or Ásatrú interchangably for Norse Neopagans, but what would be more acceptable?
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:40 am 
 

Muhammadabbadabba wrote:
I use "social issues" instead of "social commentary" for brevity; 6 letters in "issues" as opposed to 10 letters in "commentary".

I'm never one to whitewash a band's lyrics, although there are some issues of ambiguity that I believe need clarification. For the sake of searchability, I was using "White Nationalism" in place of "White Power" or "White Pride" despite the term being 6 letters longer than each. It would place various White Nationalist bands under one term as opposed to a wilderness of terms. There are also White Nationalist bands that aren't necessarily National Socialists/Fascists and vice versa, although that's another headache entirely.

For "racism," what should be the metric here? I was tagging bands that use racial epithets with the intent to demean, mock or express negative sentiment towards a distinct racial/ethnic group. There are White Nationalist bands and projects (hello, Josh Dalviken) that strictly stick to white pride or identity without mentioning other races. Conversely, there are extremely racist bands (Mudoven and Vaginal Jesus come to mind) that dedicate much more of their energy towards attacking non-whites and Jews than promoting white pride.

Not long ago, someone mentioned the "Anti-ZOG" tag as a euphemism for Anti-Semitism. Indeed, any band that expressly mentions Jews in conspiracy theories and/or expresses negative sentiments towards people on account of being Jewish deserve the label, but on a side note, are we to use "Anti-Semitism" or "Antisemitism"? Pardon the semantics, but Wikipedia's article uses the non-hyphenated form.

Different topic entirely, but another point I'd like to bring up is a united Paganism tag. Paganism is a vastly broad concept referring to a range of different pre-Christian myths in Europe and abroad, but what would be the accepted term for European religions with distinct themes? Norse Heathenry or Slavic folk religion have nothing to do with Wicca. For a while, I was using either Heathenry or Ásatrú interchangably for Norse Neopagans, but what would be more acceptable?

There's no need to be overly anal about categorization or unifying tags, to be honest. If one band says Asatru and another says Norse mythology, and that accurately describes their themes, that's fine.

To answer your questions:

- I am more than fine with writing "Racism" on bands that have white nationalist themes because that's inherently racist even if they don't "attack other races". I suppose it's not always strictly necessary if lack of space is an issue, but I'd particularly want it included if they use not-so-subtle dog-whistles like "degenerates" or "thugs" or whatnot because we all know what this is all about.
- I'm not sure which spelling of Antisemitism is the prevailing/standard one, if it's the non-hyphenated version, go with that.
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I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

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Kennermahn
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:29 am 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
Brujeria is basically (among other things) tongue-in-cheek songs about killing white people and praising Hispanic people. Without getting too political, I don't feel it'd be sincere to label that as either "racism" or "anti-racism" in the sense that those terms get understood when most people read them. "Hispanic pride" might be a better term for it.


Yeah, "Hispanic pride" seems a much for suitable tag for them, rather than "Racism" or anti-. Actually, the band features the tag "Mexican pride", which, in this case, serves the same purpose. I guess they should have the "Racism" tag removed.

Morrigan wrote:
However, note that whitewashing actual racist bands is not acceptable. Not saying anyone here did this, but in the past I've noticed some very obviously racist bands missing the tag in the lyrical themes or using euphemisms like "nationalism".


I believe that many of these bands with the tag "Nationalism" should have it replaced with "White Nationalism", which at least I understand to mean "Racism" too. Estirpe Imperial's lyrics, for instance, feature clear white nationalism/nazi themes and they're just labeled as "Nationalism". "Light" racism is still racism and I agree that you don't need to differentiate between those bands and straight "hatecore" bands.

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TheGrimWombat
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:36 pm 
 

Kennermahn wrote:

I believe that many of these bands with the tag "Nationalism" should have it replaced with "White Nationalism", which at least I understand to mean "Racism" too. Estirpe Imperial's lyrics, for instance, feature clear white nationalism/nazi themes and they're just labeled as "Nationalism". "Light" racism is still racism and I agree that you don't need to differentiate between those bands and straight "hatecore" bands.


I would not call Estirpe Imperial a "nazi" band, and I don't think they would call themselves that. White nationalist, sure. Fascist, sure. But not nazi. Fascism is already present in their lyrical themes.
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Muhammadabbadabba
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:54 pm 
 

Another note: Nazism or National Socialism?

In the distant past, we used to have Nazism as a lyrical theme, but it was then changed to National Socialism some time later. Seeing that "National Socialism" requires three times as many characters as "Nazism", should we revert to the latter descriptor for space's sake?
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:09 am 
 

I guess space can be an issue when a band has like ten different lyrical themes, but then again I've always asked myself if that's really necessary.

Like as an example, across the at this point 233 Black Tribe releases, I obviously have a thousand different lyrical themes. But because I figure nobody wants to read a massive essay in the lyrical themes field and I don't think it would benefit anyone either, I generalised the absolute fuck out of it. So it always strikes me as really awkward when there are bands with like a single demo and five different things in the lyrical themes. For what? We don't need a lyrical theme for every single thing the band has ever written lyrics about. And with that in mind, I don't see how space should ever be an issue, unless it's a band with a four decades career that changed direction half a dozen times.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:16 am 
 

There's a case to be made for space, as well as a case for Nazism being the more common form. It's certainly what Wikipedia uses, for instance. But in our case, it's been pointed out to me that "National Socialism" likely became the more widely used term because people would add "NS" to various themes and fields, so "National Socialism" is more or less just the non-abbreviated form. There's no harm in keeping it "National Socialism" or using "Nazism", but for the sake of consistency we should probably just stick to the one most commonly used already, which would be the former.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:28 am 
 

Wikipedia uses it to distinguish the specific ideology of Nazi Germany from any other combinations of nationalism and socialism, but that's kind of moot here because no one is gonna say "oh I bet these bunch of white skinheads with swastika tattoos are singing about the nationalist form of socialism of post-war Taiwan", pretty obvious in the context of this site what "national socialism" means.
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Kennermahn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:47 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
There's a case to be made for space, as well as a case for Nazism being the more common form. It's certainly what Wikipedia uses, for instance. But in our case, it's been pointed out to me that "National Socialism" likely became the more widely used term because people would add "NS" to various themes and fields, so "National Socialism" is more or less just the non-abbreviated form. There's no harm in keeping it "National Socialism" or using "Nazism", but for the sake of consistency we should probably just stick to the one most commonly used already, which would be the former.


But couldn't the instances of National Socialism be replaced with Nazism then? Since MA is taking an even less friendly stance against those politics these days, I think it would make more sense to refer to nazism the way actual nazis generally don't. The term "nazism" is not just an abbreviation, its use has been derogatory for the most part, as it was adopted by its opponents early on. Nazism to me has always been nazism, to me calling it "national socialism" is making that "ideology" sound too "fancy", especially since there's another "uglier" option. Also, if you search the term Nazism you'll get the bands with anti-nazism and since it would be ridiculous to use "anti-national socialism" I think it would make more sense to call everything nazism.

One might argue that there's the term "NSBM", and that's the right way to refer to nazi black metal I think, but I believe that was coined by actual nazis and so I don't think it should be necessary to respect the name of their "ideology" in the lyrical themes section.

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asphaalanx
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:02 pm 
 

Muhammadabbadabba wrote:
For "racism," what should be the metric here? I was tagging bands that use racial epithets with the intent to demean, mock or express negative sentiment towards a distinct racial/ethnic group. There are White Nationalist bands and projects (hello, Josh Dalviken) that strictly stick to white pride or identity without mentioning other races. Conversely, there are extremely racist bands (Mudoven and Vaginal Jesus come to mind) that dedicate much more of their energy towards attacking non-whites and Jews than promoting white pride.

There's some mention of other races in the lyrics of the first artist you mentioned. It's not as outward as some of the other acts mentioned but it's there.

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