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NintenTheMetalhead
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:12 pm
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 4:08 pm 
 

Okay, so a while back, in 2019, I submitted a band called Herezy from Denmark. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the rejection message, but essentially the message said that the digital demo was too makeshift to be accepted. I didn't necessarily agree with that (to me the demo sounded professional) but I thought it was fair at least.

Fast forward to today and I find that the same band was submitted by someone else in January of 2020 and got accepted. Not only that, but nothing new has been released by this band since my rejection, but yet the band was accepted anyway. I decided to see if he found proof of a physical release, but nope, it's still digital only, just like how I submitted it. So then, I make a report asking what the deal was, and I was just told "different mods, different opinions." I thought you guys collectively reviewed music submitted, especially ones that you don't seem to be sure about. Not only that, but I thought the demo quite obviously sounded professional in the first place. How can a digital demo that clearly sounds professional enough cause mods to have two totally different opinions?

What's the deal here?

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ethanthedrummer
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 22
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:51 am 
 

This happened to me with Dismembered Snitch Vivisection. Gets rejected for not being metal enough but then ends up on the site a few weeks later.

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TheGrimWombat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 1615
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:50 am 
 

Shouldn't the band making it on the site be what matters to you, not who gets the band on?
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Midnightwards666
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 863
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 9:47 am 
 

For reference, this is the band in question. We'll look into what happened and feed back soon.
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Herezy/3540461826

TheGrimWombat wrote:
Shouldn't the band making it on the site be what matters to you, not who gets the band on?

Primarily yes, but it is frustrating to be the first to create and submit a valid draft (key word being valid), only to have it rejected before another user creates an identical submission later and gets the points and credit. I can understand why users feel it's worthy of a complaint.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5691
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 10:57 am 
 

NintenTheMetalhead, we won't remove the project and re-add it at this point, but I've distributed to you the points you would've received had your submission been originally accepted.

I'm sorry that in this instance you won't get your name on the submission, but, I hope you still continue to submit projects to MA. Your contributions are worthwhile and appreciated.
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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 10428
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:58 am 
 

I'd just like to add a few things here.

First of all, I totally get people reaching out in a case like this. It's only natural to wonder what's going on in the face of contradictory decisions.

That being said, we've tried to refine the guidelines and our approach to digital-only releases over the years, ever since we first started allowing such bands over 7 years ago. It's been quite a ride. Personally, I think -certain bumps along the road notwithstanding- that we've improved things steadily/on average and that the current "revision" of the guidelines works reasonably well. Doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, but that's easier said than done. FWIW, we definitely don't think we've reached the optimum end of the road. Anywho, from what I'm seeing, Herezy is one of those cases that really straddles the line of what is and isn't acceptable in terms of a valid digital release. The demo sounds professional enough to me, but then again it's only two tracks and without "real" cover art (yes, the length aspect is no longer that important, but it doesn't mean that it's entirely out of the equation). I don't have a problem with having it listed, personally, but I can see why another mod back then ended up leaning the other way. It's probably not hard to see how it's practically inevitable that with a partially "gut-feel"-based aspect to us evaluating these things one mod or group of mods may have different opinions than another when it comes to the stuff very close to the imaginary line (asteroid belt?) of (non)validity. I want to stress again that there is naturally nothing wrong with our users expecting us to act consistently, but even so, in my opinion you should accept a certain risk, so to speak, when choosing to submit releases like this. It's an occupational hazard when scraping the proverbial bottom of the Bandcamp barrel. ;) It might make it, it might not. Ideally we're all on the same page either way, but sometimes stuff like this can happen where there are no clearly right or wrong options.

NintenTheMetalhead wrote:
I thought you guys collectively reviewed music submitted, especially ones that you don't seem to be sure about.

Yes and no. You are correct that there can be a collective assessment based on different mods offering their thoughts in the (hidden) moderator comment field (or directly on the Discord chat or internal forum). However, that's not the norm since a lot of submissions are (arguably) obvious cases that don't require this lengthy-ish process. Even when it does happen, it boils down to 2-3 mods most of the time for ambiguous submissions. There can be more, yes, but that's relatively rare and tends to happen mostly for exceptional headscratchers or otherwise above-average-tricky cases where the staffers already involved deem it best to get a solid consensus and actively reach out to other mods to share their thoughts. Certainly there isn't a requirement for the entire staff to cast their vote on every single band submission (or even every single borderline submission). Although there is without a doubt a hugely higher level of inter-mod communication when it comes to the band queue these days compared to a decade ago, it's just not feasible to dissect every single band multiple times. At least not with the current manpower and mechanics, not by a long shot. There is actually a semi-official rule that there should be a quorum of two staffers at the very least for the less obvious digital-only submissions before action is taken either way, but that still doesn't entirely eliminate outcomes like this one*. What exactly constitutes "less obvious" is in itself less than obvious sometimes and subject to each moderator's subjective views. Furthermore, staffers may choose to err on the side of caution on their own entirely and reject bands similar to Herezy.

Anyway, just trying to paint a picture of our side of things here. Not trying to put the OP down for creating the thread, as I said, I definitely understand the consternation here. Hope I could clear it up a bit.


*You may ask why we don't simply blacklist these rejections, as we routinely do with stuff that gets canned for musical reasons. Well, if a band does get submitted too many times in a row by different people, such action may be taken to avoid further waste of time and effort. But it's not a default course of action since release issues usually change more quickly than "metalness" issues. It may very well be counter-productive to the site's comprehensiveness to be too trigger-happy with blacklisting these sorts of bands.

ethanthedrummer wrote:
This happened to me with Dismembered Snitch Vivisection. Gets rejected for not being metal enough but then ends up on the site a few weeks later.

That's not really a relevant example here. The band was simply brought up for re-evaluation and whitelisted.
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NintenTheMetalhead
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:12 pm
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 2:07 pm 
 

I see. I was really only thinking of the production quality of the demo when I made this thread, and not really the length of it and the fact that there doesn't seem to be official cover art (although Spotify and Bandcamp lists the logo as the cover art). Those could definitely lead a mod to think that the demo isn't enough despite the production being good. Though in the end, it is a pretty borderline case, so I do think it should've gotten more discussion, but I understand your point of view too. Thanks for clearing this all up.

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arkiv
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri May 29, 2020 2:28 pm
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 2:51 pm 
 

Are there demos with one song?

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OpsiusCato
Mexican Metal Inquisition

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 2913
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:12 pm 
 

arkiv wrote:
Are there demos with one song?

Yes. There are.
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arkiv
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri May 29, 2020 2:28 pm
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:48 pm 
 

Let me check

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NintenTheMetalhead
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:12 pm
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 2:18 pm 
 

I think you missed the two links he put on his post.

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