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aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 2509
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:08 am 
 

I got a pm from a mod here last week:

Hey so you threw a band in the queue and were pretty blatant about not thinking they were metal to begin with, and ya did it anyway. So even though it turned out to be acceptable I guess, I hate the genre so I didn't deal with it, we'd like to keep that stuff from happening. I'm sure you know the queue is already overloaded and inundated with hot garbage. So yeah, going forward please dont do that.

and, since the issue of mods (perhaps not) acting consistently was brought up elsewhere, I wanted to discuss it in public, if that's ok.

so, even though a band may be acceptable, it's best not to submit it? just me, or in general?

thanks.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5691
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:42 am 
 

It was discussed at length among staff in the Discord. In this particular case the project ended up being acceptable, which is to your credit obviously what we'd want, but sadly it's far too common for users - some of them like yourself having been active here for a long time - to submit a project into the queue, regardless if they have confidence in it being acceptable or not. When users submit bands to the queue, we expect them to have confidence that the project they're submitting is actually metal - not "borderline", not "maybe metal", and certainly not "metal enough."

We don't want people to get into the habit of throwing shit at the wall hoping that it'll stick. That's unfortunately become more and more common over the years, in large part because we probably have entered a time when most obvious cases of bands with metal releases are on MA, and so what's left are the more questionable cases. All we ask is that when users do submit such questionable cases, they submit them because they actually don't think they're questionable; that they're certain, without a shadow of a doubt, that the project fulfills our rules and requirements. In your case, you were clear to us that you felt it was borderline, even enough that you wrote it in the genre field. We just wish to discourage people from submitting projects they may not be so sure of themselves. That said, you're not alone here. Whenever a user - new or old - maybe crosses that line a bit, we do send a friendly message to them. And bringing it up publicly here is perfectly fine, because hopefully the people reading this message might take it as advice, too.

I will stress that we do not want people to stop submitting bands, especially if they're questionable, just that they do so because they genuinely believe it's clearly acceptable and not just because it might be enough to cross the line and be accepted, or because they just want to throw it at us and see if we might accept it. In the latter case, there's no need to do that because if you're not confident about it, the likelihood of us being confident in it is slim, and it just clogs up the queue with projects no one has confidence in.
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oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 5173
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:53 am 
 

While I agree with Derigin to a considerable degree, there is (at least) one aspect left out of consideration. While it is true that the MA has a definite standard of what is metal, it is by no means an established level or rather in accordance with what others perceive as such. This is especially true for a lot of the *core projects or *djent projects that are out there and that others might very well describe as or attribute the metal tag, while the MA does not. As such, someone who happen to be less familiar with the way things are dealt with around here, might very well submit music the mods/admins etc. would not describe as being in line with the MA canon.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5691
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:01 pm 
 

Agreed, and we've come to accept that as the norm. You'll always have people who disagree with the way we define metal, or might not understand it, and so submit a project that is clearly unacceptable to us but acceptable for them. That's perfectly fine. It's begrudgingly what is to be expected. And admittedly, in their case, they are confident it's metal... at least in their view, it is.

But, where that differs from this case, and other cases of borderline projects, is that the user described above who submitted a project we find unacceptable but they find acceptable is confident in what they're submitting to us. They think it's metal, even if it's not. What we would like to discourage are people, whether they're new to the site or not, submitting projects that they're just not confident in actually being acceptable. Usually in these cases the submitter doesn't really feel it is metal, but still feels adamant we should review it anyway. If you're not totally confident yourself that the project you submit is metal, why would you expect us to be? Admittedly that's more of an extreme case, but it does happen, and it's something to keep in mind. We don't want people to not submit projects, they just need to make it clear to us that they actually think it's acceptable, and that they're just not throwing shit against the wall hoping it might stick.
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aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 2509
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:46 pm 
 

thank you for the extensive reply. it's a little naive to place the emphasis on the submitter's stated perception of metalness, if you don't mind me saying :) that's exactly what encourages and exonarates people to submit unacceptable bands either because they are involved with them and they wish to have the band validated with an m-a page, or because they disagree with your definition of metalness and they want to win the argument by getting a popular band you have blacklisted in.

as laughable or lamentable as it may seem, I only submit bands with the intention of keeping the archives complete. so I may hear a band that sounds heavy enough, but I can't tell if their riffery sits on the metal or the rock/punk/core side of your cutting off point, in which case I submit it so you can decide. I am not trolling, testing your patience or trying to prove a point. I genuinely can't tell, especially in the stoner rock/metal, post- and -core subgenres.

what I gather from your post(s) is that I should stick to the genres where the riffs are more consistent and do not leave any doubt, which I will, from now on...
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9994
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:14 pm 
 

aloof wrote:
as laughable or lamentable as it may seem, I only submit bands with the intention of keeping the archives complete. so I may hear a band that sounds heavy enough, but I can't tell if their riffery sits on the metal or the rock/punk/core side of your cutting off point, in which case I submit it so you can decide. I am not trolling, testing your patience or trying to prove a point. I genuinely can't tell, especially in the stoner rock/metal, post- and -core subgenres.

what I gather from your post(s) is that I should stick to the genres where the riffs are more consistent and do not leave any doubt, which I will, from now on...

If you genuinely can't tell, but have a hunch it's probably acceptable and submit for us to decide, that's OK. What Derigin is getting at is that you should avoid submitting bands you think are probably not acceptable or are borderline.

Basically, if you yourself think it's borderline, best avoid it. If you think it's fine, submit it. If you aren't sure, but think it's likely fine based on precedent, submit it. If you aren't sure, but think it's iffy, avoid it. Like Derigin said, "don't throw shit at the wall hoping something sticks". It just wastes both our time.

I hope this makes sense!
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