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Oxenkiller
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:25 am 
 

This came up in the "Worst Bands on the Archives" thread, discussing bands with controversial lyrics and/or themes, specifically blatant pro-nazi and racist lyrics, ideology and imagery.

First of all, as the Metal Archives, for completist sake and for archival purposes, these bands SHOULD be archived and should be kept on this site. I am not arguing that they be deleted, as that would not be intellectually honest for a site that is dedicated to being an all-encompassing archive of metal bands.

What I might consider as a possibility instead is, keep these bands on the down-low. Don't drag their names up or publicize them in any way. Specifically, while you can allow discussion of them in the forums if they come up, but on the front page, do not list them in the "Latest Reviews, Latest additions, latest updates," etc sections; if one of these band pages gets updated, or a new review gets written or there is a new album release, update the band page, but there need not advertize that the band page was updated or a new recording was released.

It would be a good compromise anyway, for those who wish these bands would just dissappear from the archives, and those who simply don't want to give them any acknowedgement. And this would cover the most flagrantly racist/nazi bands, as opposed to bands whose members may espouse those sympathies but don't explicitly reflect this in their lyrics (e.g. Burzum, Graveland)

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EvergreenSherbert
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Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:15 am 
 

I'll agree with this
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Kennermahn
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:56 pm 
 

While I can't deny you have a point, this would probably lead to these bands being very badly documented. It's true there are nerds who keep checking which new bands got added to see what they can listen to (I do that myself), but I'd dare say the most active users are editors, and often bands get their highest boost in terms of information when they get added. If those bands didn't appear when they got added, they'd depend on the one enthusiastic editor who had been keeping track of them in the queue or the submitter themselves, provided they cared enough. Some people make extremely barebones submissions which require the subsequent work of other editors. I don't think the "publicity" effect would be enough to justify not making those bands appear there. Another thing is that it would require the mods to make this call every time a band gets added, and I don't think that's always easy or evident.

Regarding the edits, any band which didn't appear in the recent edits column would be extremely vulnerable to trolling, as no one would be able to easily see that a band is being edited maliciously. This website doesn't use edit bots like Wikipedia, as far as I know, so malicious edits don't get detected as quick, and there aren't as many editors to keep watch on each entry.

As for the reviews, that makes sense, but anyway, I don't think any positive reviews of those bands get accepted these days. I'm aware that some of the reviews of those bands that used to exist were removed (I know because I reported two myself).

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MDL
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:38 pm 
 

Yes, I agree with Kennermahn.

Also because I don't believe that someone who would feel tempted by such bands wouldn't already have some insidious ideologies a priori. And, additionally, these bands would also appear in many other ways, like, by using the search function, by clicking in the random band button, on a user's modification history, the report queue and in the forum, on topics like the cleansing the archives/potential additions/appeals and so on (which can be browsed by all visitors without previous registration). That's probably how MA users that agree with such ideologies end up finding these bands, anyway (especially through the search function, by "lyrical themes", which narrows down the list to the intended results.

Having these bands listed on the latest updates tab is also useful when it comes to updating information. I commonly go check some bands that were recently updated, to see if there's some inaccurate information or some more stuff that can be added. Basically, we can keep a track on them. And this applies to all bands in the database, of course.

About the reviews, I remember that I've seen many positive reviews for nazi/fascist/racist bands. I guess that what counts is if the submitter does agree with such views and mentions them explicitely on the review. Of course that such stuff should be reported. But you can still give those bands a positive score. I myself have submitted a relatively positive review for the Raunchous Brothers' album in the past review challenge, where I clearly stated my stance regarding their ideologies. I believe that, as long as there isn't any type of glorification of such ideologies, it won't be a problem for approval.

Additionally, I've noticed that some measures have been taking regarding the publicity of these bands. For example, these new merchant links that were recently added do not appear in NSBM bands' pages. Links to sites like Bitchute are forbidden and I believe that adding merchant links or links under the "official merchandise" tab is also prohibited - not sure about the latter, but I could swear I've read about that somewhere.

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Derigin
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Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:15 pm 
 

There's a bit to unwrap here. Let me see if I can cover the bases.

Regarding the inclusion of such bands on MA, you're right that they're retained on the primary basis of our aim to be a comprehensive and complete resource for metal information. I would also argue that it serves a secondary purpose, that is, raising the awareness of the projects for those who may want to avoid them, may not have known they're controversial, and may not know how they connect to other bands/labels/artists. One of the unintended consequences of MA's existence is that people now know more about the musicians and scenes connected to problematic bands, and are more readily able to assess how best to avoid them and even raise awareness to others about them. There's always the risk that increased awareness also breeds support, but the other side of that argument would be the reality that, without MA, metalheads may not be criticizing and calling into question problematic bands and musicians at the scale and scope they have been in recent years. Perhaps for this reason it's no surprise that the vast majority of people we run into who want these projects removed from MA are the ones who are most affected by their inclusion (ie. almost always musicians and fans who don't want others to criticize them). So even if there wasn't the completionist angle at play here, I'd still say there's value to their inclusion.

I don't think anyone here really is opposed to limiting their exposure, however. I suppose the main issue I can see being a roadblock here would be the logistical trouble that it would cause. I must admit (and I speak for myself, not the other mods or the site) that I'm not too fussed if such bands are badly documented, at least beyond the basics. The crux of the logistical issue comes in two forms: how you define what is a questionable band, and the technical limits of that, and what impact it would really have, for better or worse. Defining a questionable, controversial, problematic band is easier said than done. We could just limit it to bands with certain lyrical themes, as we've done elsewhere and wouldn't be an issue here, but that also admittedly omits such bands which are far more careful about their lyrics and use of symbols. Beyond that, what about bands where it's not readily obvious, unless you read their bios or read information on artist or label pages, that they may be problematic or objectionable? Would we be able to satisfy varying views on this, and what would be our limits? These are tough questions. Then, of course, if we figure all this out, we could limit the bands showing up in the "latest" sections, but as noted above, that wouldn't exclude other means of stumbling upon them, and if people don't stumble upon them, will they learn about why those bands are problematic or objectionable? I'm not saying this to be contrary, just that there's a lot of questions that come up about how it would be implemented in a way that doesn't just seem performative and is actually meaningful.

Regarding reviews and the forums, we are fairly clear we don't accept far-right propaganda, and so if that is found we will take action to remove it. As the person who handles reviews the most, I can say that we're progressively getting better at weeding out reviews which do that at the point of submission. In fact, the reason you won't find many positive reviews for, at least, blatantly far-right bands is that reviewers don't tend to be 'neutral' as far as their views on the far-right shit. They're more likely to use slurs, express support for the ideas or excuse them away, or just outright come out and admit they're fascists. It seems like it's extremely hard for such a reviewer not to show their true colours when making a review for such a band. You can also clearly tell when someone is trying to review something when they genuinely believe it's good versus if they just want to troll about how good the band is because they know it's edgy to do so. I would be lying if I said I don't scrutinize those reviews more harshly than others because of that reality. Not really opposed on a personal level to the exclusion of reviews for blatant bands such as these, but already the criteria for acceptance, especially nowadays, should handle the most egregious cases.
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BuriedUnborn
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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:52 am 
 

Kennermahn, MDL and Derigin all made great points. While the idea in itself is good-hearted, applying it would be a hell of an issue; both from a logical and a functional point of view.

A line needs to be drawn sometimes; some bands have blatantly racist and supremacist lyrics, but others mask it all too well. There are bands whose lyrics you can't find, and their symbology might not make clear that they're Nazis, and I doubt someone's gonna go around trying to make out a lot of extreme metal lyrics by ear to determine whether a band is racist or not.

The next thing is implementing it; how do you make sure that the wrong bands won't end up being filtered out? Should we filter out bands such as Absurd which had a NSBM era but no longer produce such music? Should we filter out bands by association? Or what about bands that might promote extremist murderous ideologies, but not through their music? There are also bands such as Adolf Satan, which use Nazi symbology but their lyrics aren't really racist or anything. And also, what about bands that aren't Nazis, but their lyrical content is in support of other extremist political views (such as bands that bootlick marxist-leninist dictatorships and praise/justify genocides committed by them), should we ban those as well? There are many bands in a gray area, and I'm sure this would just end up in lots of discussion whether band X are Nazis or not.

This is just the price to pay for having free access to information. If you really think of it, nobody that doesn't support extremist ideologies is going to willingly look for NSBM bands, let alone support them financially, and if this was implemented, those who do wouldn't be affected, since they could just look up the bands themselves anyway. Just as this happens here, it happens in pretty much all other sources of information; someone can just look up "Nazism" on Wikipedia and go "this looks like a sensible political stance".
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Planetary_Misfortune
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:15 pm 
 

I agree fully that pretending that fascist bands do not exist is not an effective strategy, whereas using their inclusion as an educational tool by clearly highlighting them to be of such practices is a much greater weapon than simply white-washing their histories.
Maybe a flag could be added on bands with confirmed / suspected racial connections that pops up when a user visits it, much like the mod warnings you get when a band page has been subject to previous fuckery at the hand of such belligerents.
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~Guest 290927
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:13 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:57 am 
 

There are two types of censorship: one is to actively cover/hide objective facts, the other is to actively oppress certain views (usually political). History has repeatedly shown that both forms of censorship are largely detrimental to human society rather than beneficial, but the first form is invariably harmful. As someone from the "East Asian powerhouse", I have seen that brutal censorship and ideology indoctrination brings blind arrogance, belligerence, oversensitivity, radical nationalism, xenophobia etc to the people, something that one with reason would definitively want to avoid.

I would be extremely cautious to censoring any views/opinions, and I fundamentally oppose the mentality to censor objective facts. Why? Because facts do not automatically change or spontaneously disappear after you censor them. Fact is something out there, whether you like it or not. Metal Archives, as its name suggests, is an archive site, which faithfully documents objective facts. Thus it should treat all objective facts equally. "Band X supports Nazi ideology." "Band Y talks all about violence, alcohol, drug abuse." "Band Z fancies all types of sex." "Band W praises the beauty of nature." As objective facts, they are all equal. We invariably strive to document the objective information, including their lineup, discography, lyrics. Mechanics regarding facts, such as updates, exposures, should make no special filters.

"Objectionable" is such a subjective thing, with no clear limit. Who says that Nazi is objectionable while drug abuse, church burning, scat eating are not? If a band is objectionable to someone, let him pan it in the reviews, let him ridicule it in the forum, let him buy all their records and smash them with a hammer. But it's an archive's duty to stand as an outsider and faithfully document what the band has produced.

Another thing, that an upcoming NSBM album appears on the frontpage does NOT mean the website is advertizing that album! It's simply because someone documents it. Have some BASIC LOGIC please. Don't be so fragile and oversensitive. Metal Archives is merely an archive site of facts; neo-nazis go to Stormfront for their views.

The true objectionable thing is that some people are trying so hard to cover/hide/eliminate the truths they don't like, and babysit others ideologically. A common listener (of any music), an adult, doesn't need to be babysit to know what is right or wrong. Think about it, if the mainstream ideology is so glorious, righteous, self-evident, then why fear that listening to some NSBM albums would suddenly neutralize years of school education and turn someone into a Nazi supporter?

I painfully assure you, those who actively try to hide, delete, vandalize, or blatantly fake history are much, much more dangerous than a few bunches of neo-Nazis. This shameful trend/mentality has nailed its teeth in my homeland, and is now plaguing the West.

Lastly, I feel the pressure to stress that I am by no means a Nazi supporter or racist. I know the disgustingness of politics and I stay away from it. I fear some people would use their unrestrained imagination to pit me as a Nazi supporter. Really sickens me.

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Of_This_Night36
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Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:16 pm
Posts: 323
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:30 pm 
 

I tend to click on random "New" / "Updated" bands and I've found a VERY significant increase in NS bands lately. Both being added to the site, and being updated. This number used to be at maybe one a week that I'd find, now (conveniently only since the Alt Right got more popular) it's 3 or 4 a day. (There were 2 when I first got on here today.) Something has changed and whatever it is, it can't possibly be good. And I'm far from the only person who looks at those features, meaning they're basically getting free homepage promotion as it stands now. While no solution to this is ideal, I definitely think it's best to utilize something. Whatever solution is used won't please everybody, but nothing pleases everybody.
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MDL
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:48 pm 
 

With all due honesty, bringing up these bands, constantly, on the forums, whether the matter is about nsbm or not (just like I've witnessed in many other threads, in which nsbm or rac are brought up just for the sake of it) would probably ending up giving them much more free promotion than a bunch of editings on the main page. While the later would eventually disappear, as dozens of users are simultaneously editing/adding other bands, the thematics of nsbm or rac in the forums are just so frequent and beaten up, even if they aren't associated with any actual discussion.

Also, I couldn't agree more with Snow Listener's argument on this.

Metal Archives is not a promotional website and that's one of its primordial lines and I really don't understand why/how this promotion rhetoric only appears when we're talking about nsbm or rac. What about bands that praise stuff like communism/marxism-leninism, murder, rape, mysoginy, pedophilia, suicide, religious extremism, terrorism and drug abuse, amongst others? And if an editing/addition to the archives is counted as promotion, then, I'll only start editing and adding bands that I like, so they can get some of that free promotion.

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BuriedUnborn
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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:50 pm 
 

Reiterating what I've previously stated and agreeing with MDL again: the only ones looking for NSBM bands are neo-nazis, the average metalhead has no interest in listening to NSBM or at least financially supporting these bands. When we complain a lot about these bands being "promoted" in the site we end up with a confirmation bias and we think they're becoming more and more common. There are hundreds of encyclopedia-like webpages which host information about nazi-related stuff, and editing the articles on these things surely makes them appear in the "recently edited" section of the webpage or its equivalent, but this is hardly promotion. Following this logic, I've been editing a few bands (Absentium and Wulfshon) a lot as of late, so was I promoting them?

It should also be noted that a fuckton of NSBM bands are just solo projects by some guy with 10 other NSBM solo projects, or a mixture of artists from other projects, so there really aren't that many neo-nazis around, they're just a vocal minority that's exposing itself, and I like my nazis wearing their uniforms so they're easy to recognize.
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Of_This_Night36
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:59 pm 
 

BuriedUnborn wrote:
we think they're becoming more and more common.

... No, they are becoming more common. I don't merely "think" this, it's a trend I've noticed over the past 2-3 years. I've been using this site (quite regularly) since 2009. The amount of nazi bands I happened upon from 2009-2020, and 2020-2022, are probably the same.

Also not that anyone probably gives a shit, but just because you don't intend to promote something, doesn't mean you aren't still promoting it. Yes, MA says over and over that it's not a promotional site, but tons of people use it as one, from bands, to labels, to fans, (myself included, I am all 3 of those things). Do you really think small-time labels and artists join this site and update only their personal pages because they're concerned about the integrity of the website? If you pretend there isn't a promotional element to all this, you're blind. No, it's not the intention of the staff, but it is absolutely happening.
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BuriedUnborn
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:31 pm 
 

Of_This_Night36 wrote:
BuriedUnborn wrote:
we think they're becoming more and more common.

... No, they are becoming more common. I don't merely "think" this, it's a trend I've noticed over the past 2-3 years. I've been using this site (quite regularly) since 2009. The amount of nazi bands I happened upon from 2009-2020, and 2020-2022, are probably the same.

Also not that anyone probably gives a shit, but just because you don't intend to promote something, doesn't mean you aren't still promoting it. Yes, MA says over and over that it's not a promotional site, but tons of people use it as one, from bands, to labels, to fans, (myself included, I am all 3 of those things). Do you really think small-time labels and artists join this site and update only their personal pages because they're concerned about the integrity of the website? If you pretend there isn't a promotional element to all this, you're blind. No, it's not the intention of the staff, but it is absolutely happening.


If they became more common, it's because sharing your music in 2022 is way easier than in 2009, and since the pandemic people had a ton of free time to just sit down in their basements and write shitty riffs with some "we need to save our race" lyrics and put it on Bandcamp.

Now, if the site is being used in a promotional way, even if it's not the site's intention, then there are few things that can be done:

  • Erase the "recently updated" box, and make it harder to track users whitewashing and trolling.
  • Only allow mods to make changes, and completely kill the site's userbase.
  • Ban or shadowban NSBM bands and make the site lose its essence as an encyclopaedia by making it biased.
  • Don't allow users to update NSBM band/artist/album/label pages and let these end up outdated, making the site more inaccurate and less reliable.

The best solution would be to hope NSBM bands suddenly stopped existing, but they won't. I'll say it for a third time: regardless of how much these bands decide to promote themselves, only those who are into NSBM will care to support them. People won't find some NSBM band and support them financially if they don't support the ideology beforehand, I wouldn't, you wouldn't, everyone I know wouldn't. They also wouldn't decide to become white supremacists/neo-nazis because of what they heard in a song, otherwise at this point I'd be a marxist because of how much I listen to bands such as Propagandhi.

All that can be done is complaining, I don't like it either that bands with extremist views use the site as a mean to promote themselves (either effectively or not), but I personally don't care enough because I don't support them. There's not a solution that won't have a negative side effect, and all solutions are done from a subjective point of view, and the site is supposed to be as objective as it can be.
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TheGrimWombat
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:05 am 
 

BuriedUnborn wrote:
I don't like it either that bands with extremist views use the site as a mean to promote themselves (either effectively or not), but I personally don't care enough because I don't support them.


Not to mention there are all sorts of other extremist bands on the site...
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lindwyrm
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:00 pm
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Location: Austria
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:02 am 
 

I've been using the metal archive since a decade and this is my first post, I figured I'd post it here instead of creating an extra thread.

I listen to a lot of black metal but don't want to support NSBM bands, so when I encounter a new band I usually search them on the metal archives and check their genres/lyrical themes. My idea probably would be a little hard to implement or monitor... But one of the best new features for me would be a small banner on such a bands page that says "confirmed NSBM band" or whatever. Terminology could also be more generalized so it could also be put on RAC band pages and so on.

I understand that one of the biggest objections for this could be: When we start here, where do we end (in terms of explicit lyrics).
But I think nazi stuff is something 99% of people would agree should not be promoted.
What do you guys think about this?

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ᴎostalgiʞK
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Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:27 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:36 am 
 

lindwyrm wrote:
But one of the best new features for me would be a small banner on such a bands page that says "confirmed NSBM band" or whatever. Terminology could also be more generalized so it could also be put on RAC band pages and so on.

I understand that one of the biggest objections for this could be: When we start here, where do we end (in terms of explicit lyrics).
But I think nazi stuff is something 99% of people would agree should not be promoted.
What do you guys think about this?


Well friend, first of all, congrats for your first post.

About the banner... Well, there is a huge helpful tool more useful than a banner, while searching for bands in MA, lyrical themes under the genre usually give some other clue about the band, I mean... "aryanism, white supremacism, national socialism, holocaust, white nationalism, white power, RAC, anti-semitism, anti-marxism, fascism, anti-communism"
Album covers are a huge red flag in black metal, if the band does not contain "lyrical themes" or are not added on their site. I mean, a huge black sun over a forest or nordic runes with a Totenkopf or a picture of Auschwitz may give us a clue of what's going on.
Names like "88" at the end of a band is a huge factor to determinate what is the purpose of the band. Like.. "Terror 88"
Most of the shitty covers of NSBM contain from horrendous terrorific historical pictures clearly making apology to fascism to hilarious and fantasy stuffs, like an ancient aztec jaguar fighter behind a SS soldier, mexican culture symbols mish-mashed with swastikas.. Sonic the hedgegod under a black sun, latin american lads hailing with a NS flag behind 'em or german empire flag....
I dunno, a banner that you suggest is already on the site at some point.

About the %, I am concerned about that percentage of the people who promote or would promote racism in (mostly extreme) metal, I wish it was at least 60% the quantity of people who would not support that...
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Required Fields
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:53 pm 
 

I think it's good, because in the case of National Socialist bands, it gives a great indication for bands to avoid. I don't want to support any bands with that ideology whatsoever.

I guess, for some, the "similar artists" tool can be effective, because in some cases, some might want something musically similar without the neo-Nazism. With that said, for most of the bands with neo-Nazi ideologies I looked at on here, the "similar artists" tool lists bands with similar ideologies, going through their M-A pages and lyrical themes (I didn't listen to their music for good reason).
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