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Hellow2
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:49 pm
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:20 pm 
 

Hi, I am working on something

Well for that I need to parse the raw genre string into a list of subgenres, and I couldn't make out or find any general rules.
Here a couple real examples where something doesn't add up.

    1. Heavy Metal -> Heavy-Metal => space connects two genre "elements"
    2. Depressive Black Metal (early); Post-Black Metal (later) => ";" is used as a delimiter between Genres.
    3. Progressive Death Metal/Grindcore -> Progressive Death Metal, Grindcore => I use "," as delimiter between Genres. "/" is also an
    delimiter for the genres?
    4. Heavy/Power Metal -> Heavy Metal, Power Metal => This now contradicts. Either "/" splits up the genre by the next space and "mixes
    it", that would contradict 3., or space doesn't connect between genres, which would contradict 1..

Also, in case of 3. being true 2. would be pointless or redundant.

Id love some help on that, thanks in advance :)
Hellow2

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 9:15 pm 
 

Here's the way we typically deal with genre formatting:

- Metal genres must be "X Metal", with each word capitalized.

- ; is used to distinguish between genres from distinct periods of time.
For example X Metal (early); Y Metal (later) would mean the band played X Metal early on, but then changed to Y Metal later on.

- / is used to describe a mix of genres.
For example X Metal/Y Metal would mean that the band plays a mix of X Metal and Y Metal. The order does not matter.
NOTE: All but the last "Metal" typically gets truncated, so it becomes X/Y Metal for simplicity's sake.

- ; and / can be used at the same time.
For example X Metal/Y Metal (early); Z Metal (later) means the band played a mix of X Metal and Y Metal early on, but then changed to Z Metal later on.

- , is for cases where a band has played two or more distinct genres, which may not be split into distinct periods of time.
For example X Metal, Y Metal indicates the band has played both X Metal and Y Metal throughout their career, no limitation on time.

Consider the difference between a band that has "Power/Thrash Metal" as its genre and another band that has "Power Metal, Thrash Metal" as its genre. In the case of the former, you can assume the band played some mix of power metal and thrash metal. Indeed, that is actually a thing. In the latter case, you can assume the band has albums which are power metal and other albums which are thrash metal, and they may be spread out across the band's discography. The band must be pretty versatile, but at least they keep the styles apart.
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Hellow2
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:49 pm
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 12:08 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Consider the difference between a band that has "Power/Thrash Metal" as its genre and another band that has "Power Metal, Thrash Metal" as its genre. With the former, you can assume the band played some mix of power metal and thrash metal. Indeed, that is actually a thing. In the latter case, you can assume the band has albums which are power metal and other albums which are thrash metal, and they may be spread out across the band's discography. The band must be pretty versatile, but at least they keep the styles apart.


Well that isn't so far fetched. But have you heard of progressive death jazz. https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/The_Dr._Orphyus_Project/3540282906 It actually slapps. xD

Anyways,
Derigin wrote:
Metal genres must be "X Metal", with each word capitalized.

about this. Could it also be: "X Y Metal", like "progressive death metal"? Also I assume the same applys for "genre of Jazz" or for "genre of Rock" etc..
Derigin wrote:
NOTE: All but the last "Metal" typically gets truncated, so it becomes X/Y Metal for simplicity's sake.

Could other Genre in this Case also get truncated while using "/"?

And where do I know from if its "X Y <trunkated Metal>" or "X <other genre>"

Good day, Hellow2 :)

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 2:01 pm 
 

Hellow2 wrote:
Could it also be: "X Y Metal", like "progressive death metal"?

This taps into another convention when it comes to genre labels, especially in heavy metal; it could best be described as genre labels having "root" genres and "descriptors."

A "root" genre acts like a proper noun on its own; think "Black Metal", "Death Metal", "Progressive Metal" and so on. A "descriptor" acts like an adjective to that noun, describing a variant of it; think "Progressive", "Melodic", "Atmospheric", "Experimental", and so on. Descriptors can sometimes have the same name as a root genre, but they are not necessarily the same. The "root" genre is always the sound the music is based on, while the "descriptor" further describes how that sound is conveyed. For instance, "Blackened Death Metal" would be death metal with black metal elements to it. It's different from "Black/Death Metal" because it's not a mix of those genres, in the former's case it's still predominantly death metal.

The syntax I provided in my earlier post (ie. X Metal, Y Metal, etc.) combines descriptors (if there are any) and root genres. So "X Metal" could be "Progressive Death Metal" in that syntax.

You may see such genre labels as "Progressive/Death Metal." Like with the "Black/Death Metal" example above, when you have the / it means you have a mix of genres; neither the 'Progressive' or the 'Black' are descriptors in this case; they're treated as root genres that just so happen to be mixed with other root genres. It's just that the label has been truncated from "Progressive Metal/Death Metal" to "Progressive/Death Metal."

I suppose while we're on the topic of genre labels, there is one other thing you may run across, though it's rare, which is when the genre is "X Metal with Y influences." An example would be "Black Metal with Jazz influences" or "Power Metal with Folk influences." That doesn't mean the music is a mix of black metal and jazz, or power metal and folk music, but that you have black metal that might be trying to be a little bit jazzy, or power metal that's just a tad folky. It's clear that the influence is there, but it's not enough that you'd call the music a mix of those styles.

Hellow2 wrote:
Also I assume the same applys for "genre of Jazz" or for "genre of Rock" etc..

Could other Genre in this Case also get truncated while using "/"?

Generally, yeah, you can apply the same rules to non-metal genres. For example, "Hard Rock", "Free Jazz", etc. Likewise, if there's multiple non-metal genres that can be truncated, you can do so. For example, "Crust Punk/Hardcore Punk" can be truncated to "Crust/Hardcore Punk", or "Alternative Rock/Hard Rock" can be truncated to "Alternative/Hard Rock."

Hellow2 wrote:
And where do I know from if its "X Y <trunkated Metal>" or "X <other genre>"

Much of it just comes from recognizing the genres, honestly. If there's a / in the genre tag, and only one use of "Metal" at the end, you can assume it's truncated.
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Hellow2
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:49 pm
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 2:21 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Much of it just comes from recognizing the genres, honestly. If there's a / in the genre tag, and only one use of "Metal" at the end, you can assume it's truncated.


Well first of all, a huge thanks. You were very helpful. But the thing you said here is unfortunately not possible. Because no human identifies the genre. I work on a data analysis of metal (obviously I am really carefull to not stress the server so if I have to do many request I deploy it on a server and let it run for about a week) like I've done before. If u want to you can find it here: https://ln.topdf.de/metal_graph/. Unfortunately, the data is just too big to manually sort, so I have to write an algorithm to do so. Anyways thanks for your help. I ask again in this thread if some implementation detail is unclear.

lg, Hellow2

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