There's a bunch of dark ambient, non-metal bands in the encyclopedia. While the emotion/ atmosphere has something to do with black metal atmosphere, the music itself does not. I understand why ambient, non-metal side projects of musicians FROM metal bands might be included in here but not why random dark/ ambient bands with absolutely no connection to metal would be. On that note there are also a whole bunch more ambient/ dark bands that are NOT in the encyclopedia so I'm wondering where do we draw the line?

one more thing...a black metal looking logo does not make it black metal.

It is simple, the users can submit only side project with at least one release on a label with worldwide distribution.
Non-side project ambient bands will be handled as other non-metal bands, that means rejected and/or blacklisted.

Dark ambient has of course entirely different roots and musical history than metal. I do not understand, why you have asked in the METAL discussion part of the forum, though.


http://www.metal-archives.com/guidelines.php

We accept the following non-metal bands in certain cases (these exceptions can be ambiguous and debatable - scroll down for details):

* Side-projects of metal band members (ex: Pain, Wongraven, Die Verbannten Kinder Eva's)
Note that side-projects will only be eligible if they have at least one release on a label with worldwide distribution (to avoid a flood of bedroom/MySpace bands).


Read the first sentence.


- Additionally, there will be some non-metal bands featured on the site that we feel are still part of the metal scene despite not being metal themselves (usually darkwave, ambient, neo-classical and/or folk bands, examples being Mortiis, Elend, Autumn Tears, Stille Volk, etc). These bands are selected by the moderators in an admittedly arbitrary fashion, and their submission by normal users is discouraged. Please bear with us on this.

Read the last two sentences, the line is easily to be drawn.

As for the side projects, further limitations would be only welcome, in that I agree with you wholeheartedly.

seriously LOL

Therein lies the fucking problem. Rejecting grind bands I understand because that's subjective but the line here should be drawn at

non metal ambient bands which are not side projects ARE NOT METAL and therefore shouldnt be in the encyclopedia

rather than "some but not others."

Just understand that users should not submit ambient bands that are not side projects and you will be okay.

That's the decision of the mods. Dark Ambient is an accepted genre amongst the Metal realm (especially here) whilst Grindcore is not (due to its Hardcore connotation).

Perhaps in the black metal scene, but try to present it to denim wearing Manowar fans...
If it really was so, it would be quite a catastrophic scenario for me.
There was an interview with the German Scanner, where they describe the reactions of their fans, which have accidentaly picked up the British ambient Scanner releases, which pretty much disapprove all your point.


No, not really, if i should choose, I would prefer real guitar music over electronic one every day, be it punkish or hardcore based grind.

Both punk and hardcore have much more in common with metal than the diverse electronic music subgenres.

It is about as unmetal and dangerous for real metal as the nu-metal scene - all that ambient, electronic, trip-hop, darkwave, electro-goth etc. stuff.


The actual point is, that the only exceptions are selected by the owners/moderators, be it it folk, progressive rock, neo-classical, industrial, jazz rock or other non-metal genres.

I dare to say, that to stress out the black metal scene associated bands (which are often pretty far from guitar based rock music) in the written part was not a lucky move, in that I agree with the thread starter.

If you ask me, how musically non-metal bands can be part of a metal scene, than I have no answer, since that part is beyond my comprehension too, unlike the intention behind side projects of metal musicians.


Otherwise, you just need to follow what Shadoeking said and everything will be o.k.

In fact a frined of mine who is a huge Manowar fan loves Ambient. He almost hates Black Metal but he loves the Ambient side of it. But I guess that just him. Personally, I like both Grindcore and Ambient (with Grindcore on a lesser extent despite liking a lot of Hardcore and Punk).



Quick question about it:

Are Current 93 and Death In June more accepted in this forum than Dragonforce or not?

If the answer is yes, than it only shows the signs of decay of the forum.
I would not suprise me at all, seeing the amount of popularity, that even the most unknown bm bands and their countless largely worthless side projects enjoy here and the ridiculous amount of hatred Dragonforce get around here (hot topic fashion kids like them - oh the horror!!)

But ask the population at some eghties metal collectors forum and you will see the answers (most probably, that they hate both ).

Current 93 was founded in 1982 (that makes them an 80s band) and Attila Csihar took place in some of their recordings. The only 80s Metal collectors that would hate would be from the Hair Metal variant.

You need to stop thinking in black metal terms. I really do not see NWOBHM fans or old school power and thrash metal fans worship various electronic/alternative bands.

In the eighties, it was an insult to be called a Depeche Mode fan among Czech metalheads. If they only would know, that today's "gothic" metal bands would worship them.

Since Killer (Bel) got a bashing in several "true metal" fanzines and magazines for introducing synth to their sound, you could expect the reaction to a band, which is mostly synth based.
Quote:

"Much of Current 93's early work was similar to late 1970s and early 1980s industrial music: abrasive tape loops, droning synthesizer noises and Tibet's distorted, ranting vocals. This early work became influential with the goth scene. Later works found Tibet mostly casting off such trappings in favor of a more organic sound, labeled by some as "apocalyptic folk" music, occasionally featuring his sinister nursery rhyme-influenced singing and primarily acoustic folk-styled music."

Oh well...

The band can be objectively innovative, but still...

The later work at least seems to be more accessible.

I am and I do.

Joey De Maio is watching you.

But seriously, you do recognize, that such music has nothing to do with metal, not in the slightest???

The metal scene has become too much tolerant to various non-metal streamings, maybe it would be a time to become elitist in the good sense of word.

See Headbangers against disco for details (and couple of laughs):
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/1243/HAD.html
The Swedish band Gehennahs "Headbangers Against Disco" campaign is a idealistic organisation who works against "Disco" and everything "Disco" stands for.
Then, what is "Disco"? The following fenomenas we will categorise as "Disco"!

1. Dancing
2. Pop (and every other dancemusic)
3. Short hair
4. Sport
5. Trendy clothing
6. non alcoholic
7. non smoking
8. washing
9. Low fat food

If you can recognise yourself in any of these behaviors you better do someting about it... and do it quick!!! Even if you dont look at yourself as a "Discoperson", or even plays in a hardrockers band, you might still be in danger. You must be extreamly careful if your band uses any of the follwing things, or you might be categorised as "Disco".

1. Keyboards
2. Acoustic instruments
3. Acoustic haircuts

Ofcause there is exeptions to every rule, but not many...
What can you do to support the campaign? Collect some names, send them to us and well send them to the right authoriys. You can give us some money and help us spread the message, or just link this page to make sure that everyone can see it.

Obviously, I'm only saying it's not impossible to enjoy many different things. Which from your earlier posts made it seem like you did not believe any fan of the true oldschool styles should like electronica or other genres.

It is possible, but then they should know how the things ( and genres are).

I was returning to the original purpose of the post.

I find Drone and Dark Ambient very enjoyable. I listen to it a lot when I am writing texts and the like; not when writing reviews of course. There is nothing wrong with electronic music and I really like the atmosphere they are creating.

Why does everyone keep saying 'it will be ok'? I wasn't going to commit suicide over it, it's just an issue I've noticed! damn! thank you all for your support in these hard times then! stay strong yall.

The NWOBHM/traditional metal bands were singing how they are proud to be beer drinking rockers , today's bands should most probably sing how proud they are to be ecstasy tripping ravers, at least judging from some posts not only in this thread, but on this whole forum....

You see this way too negative; and there is also way too much cynicism in your post.

I think the point Witcher may trying to be getting at is that, yeah, perhaps Death in June IS more respected among Metalheads then Dragonforce, however, Dragonforce play metal and Death in June don't, so they have no place here. If this site was based on bands that were respected within the metal community, then you'd also see Bach, Beethoven, Vivaldi etc. etc. here.

Indeed, or take for example Chick Corea, who is respected among a large part of prog metal musicians.

Says the 70s softrock fan.

Which was much closer to the original metal sound and instrumentation than any electronic project in existence. Jethro Tull or Nazareth had much more impact on the original metal sound and bands like Iron Maiden than any Kraftwerk related band there ever was or is.

Back then, there were musicians, not computer programmers.

Hard rock and metal are butt buddies (nice term, randomly found here in forum )

The eighties soft glam wave was unhealthy, but the recent alternative, industrial and electronic wave is even worse and more removed from the roots of real metal.

But as I told you many times before, Ambient didn't grow out of electronic, "Kraftwerk-related" music but was pioneered by Krautrock bands such as Tangerine Dream and Can, and developed into its final form by former Tangerine Dream member Klaus Schulze, who by the way used analogue keyboards in his earlier days, which are no more synthetic than electric guitars. In fact, they are even less synthetic, they have more in common with a hammond organ than a digital keyboard.

This original Ambient music started out guitar based and remained virtually non-synthetic for many years, and it was as big an influence on Black Metal (as people like Euronymous, Manheim, Varg, Fenriz, Satyr, Nocturno Culto, etc. often confirm) as Hard Rock was on Heavy Metal or as Hardcore Punk was on Thrash. Now, it's your choice to see Black Metal as a less valid Metal genre than Heavy Metal or Thrash Metal, but your personal bias shouldn't spill into discussions in which relative objectivity is required.

The bottom line is, Dark Ambient is only less related to the Metal scene than Hard Rock or Hardcore Punk if you see Black Metal as a less valid genre than Heavy Metal or Thrash Metal. If you see all three genres as equally valid then Ambient, Hard Rock and Hardcore Punk are all equally related to Metal.

EDIT: By the way, the term "butt buddies" is from a South Park episode.

I don't want to open a can of worms Witcher, but the fact that modern, mainstream metallic bands go beyond writing songs about being drunk does not mean they're not metal. Is Burzum not metal?

No, I will never recognize it, that is like you would give special credit to industrial for creating Ministry and their countless copies.

And as for the influence on black metal, when Master's Hammer start to experiment in that style, all their fans were disgusted (which was more or lesstheir intention, since Franta lost much of its interest in the metal scene).

Once again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_music
Long quote:

History
The term "ambient music" was first coined by Brian Eno in the mid-1970s to refer to music that can be either "actively listened to with attention or as easily ignored, depending on the choice of the listener" (Eno, who describes himself as a "non-musician" termed his experiments in sound as "treatments" rather than as traditional performances). Hence, Brian Eno is considered the father of ambient music: his 1978 release Ambient 1: Music for Airports includes a manifesto describing this music. Although having coined the phrase "ambient music", he is also quick to reference the works and influence of Erik Satie. Eno coined the term in an essay to distance his work from elevator music and Muzak, it is more often similar to mood music or an ambient background in movie and radio sound effects.

Many of the works of turn of the century French composer Erik Satie are regarded as predecessors to ambient music. He referred to some of his music as "Musique d'ameublement" ('furniture music', or more literally, 'music for the furniture' and 'music to mingle with knives and forks'), in reference to something that could be played during a dinner whose sound would simply create an atmosphere for that activity rather than be the specific focus of attention.

The earliest electronic soundscape music and theories come from the work of Pierre Schaeffer who followed the futurists in classifying music into categories such as man made, natural, short and long. He made some of the first electronic music using record players and natural sounds, and cutting up tape, making the first experimental music use of recording and magnetic tape (Musique Concrete). Even his work can be seen as preempted by Schopenhauer's ideas of 'soundworlds', literally worlds made up entirely of sounds. Karlheinz Stockhausen created pioneering electronic musical experiments later in 1955, and these two (amongst others) lay the groundwork for ambient music to appear decades later when music technology had developed.

Ambient music can be seen as a kind of minimalism that was an influence on Eno's groundbreaking style. John Cage created the ultimate minimalist work with his 4'33", three periods of silence first played on the piano, which can also be considered ambient music because it causes the audience to become aware of the ambient sound surrounding them. Cage inspired minimalist composers such as La Monte Young, Morton Feldman, Terry Riley, Steve Reich and Philip Glass.

Early albums by Pink Floyd (such as Ummagumma and Meddle) and by the "kosmische Musik"-oriented krautrock artists, like Tangerine Dream, Popol Vuh, and Cluster have greatly influenced the genre. Among the first electronic ambient albums were Affenstunde (1970) and In Den Garten Pharaos (1971) by Popol Vuh. Another important album was Sonic Seasonings (1972) by Wendy Carlos. Other early artists such as Klaus Schulze (a former member of Tangerine Dream and Ash Ra Tempel), Jean Michel Jarre, and Kraftwerk in the 1970s and 1980s were influential. In the 1970s, some ambient, krautrock, and other musicians who were influenced by new age spirituality created the eclectic genre known as New Age music, selling millions independent from the mainstream music industry by direct order or new age shops. By the 1980s, New Age music had become so much better known than ambient music, that ambient was taken as a synonym for "New Age", and many ambient musicians deliberately took on new age themes to market themselves to this audience.

Influences on other genres
Beginning in the 1980s, Ambient music influenced some pop bands (examples can be found among instrumentals by New Order, Depeche Mode, Simple Minds and U2).[citation needed] Later, electronic dance music and synth pop merged in many artists' works with the dreamy, meandering sound of Eno-style ambient music. Under the guise of various styles, this new genre sometimes referred to as ambient house, ambient techno, ambient dub, IDM, ambience, or simply "ambient" in common use, saw the birth of a new wave of artists like The Orb, Aphex Twin, the Irresistible Force, Geir Jenssen's Biosphere, and the Higher Intelligence Agency.


Early Warp records artists, (as well as later ones such as Aphex Twin), FSOL Future Sound of London (Lifeforms, ISDN) Autechre, (Incunabula, Amber), Boards of Canada, Massive Attack, Portishead, and The KLF all took a part in popularising and diversifying ambient music.

To simply put it, the genre was originally influenced by rock artists, but by the albums when they were leaving the realm of geniune rock music ttowards some experimental stuff, Tangerine Dream had an huge influence on the upcoming electronic scene. Analogue synths or not, it gave birth to a predominantly keyboard, synth based music.
You cannot deny, that most of such black metal related side project is either monotonous keyboard wankery, strange cosmic sounds intended for E.T.s presumably or this " more often similar to mood music or an ambient background in movie and radio sound effects".



And, yes, I consider black metal bands, which are hugely influenced by that, to be less metal than black metal bands sticking to the original Bathory, Sodom, Venom, Hellhammer etc. formula. In fact more people should do, the scene would be much healthier.

Not that the massive overuse of keyboards in modern power metal was any healthier or truer to the metal spirit.

No, what I wanted to say is that the musicians were proud to be rockers and not a part of synth plagued pop/dance scene. The more intellectual lyrics, like on the second Sanctuary album, are only welcome by me.

Burzum was metal, at least early on, but they do not interest me at all.

To each its own, I do not hinder anybody to worship the band.

Edit:double post.

Please edit your quotes, people...

I wanted to edit it, but instead posted it twice, sorry.

I'll have to agree with what droneriot said (except for the Tangerine Dream part cause Eno indeed created Ambient). Witcher, do you find bands like Epheles and Altoriu Seseliai (Black Metal band influenced by the proggy ambience of Pink Floyd) less Metal than Dragonforce and Kamelot? Are Moevot, Amaka Hahina and other ambient LLN bands dance music?

What happens to Folk? Is it dance music, too? Eastern European ambient bands have a very folky sound (Wojnar, Perunwit, Munruthel). However are these bands not to be accepted there?

What I'm trying to say is that ambient is a part of the Metal scene and a part of the Metal philosophy. Ambient music is not Metal per se but it is a part of the Metal culture. Ambient, EBM and Industrial projects (at least in Greece) walk hand in hand with the extreme Metal scene.

That is quite sad, when soundwise completely opposites walk hand in hand with metal scene, as sad, as when rap walks hand in hand with the rock scene, thanks to nu-metal.

What happens to Folk? Is it dance music, too? Eastern European ambient bands have a very folky sound (Wojnar, Perunwit, Munruthel). However are these bands not to be accepted there?

Those band are accepted solely as side projects of metal musicians (Munruthel has at least some metal material too during his solo carreer), in case you have not noticed yet, in fact, their music has to do with metal as rap does. As a seperate projects, most of such bands would go straight to the rejected list. They are about as metal as a jazz rock project of Alex Skolnick is, even less, since that is at least electric guitar based music.

And yes, several of the electronic folk bands who almost qualify as dance music, or even wholly, if you have heard the side project of Severnye Vrata member, which somebody tried to submit several month ago.

Metal culture is rock and loud distorted guitars, not electronic music, once and for all.

Where is the "no trends" part of Euronymous creed, then? it is long lost because of thousand other reasons.
Altoriu Seseliai- I have not heard the band, but if ,after the description, the band follows the psychedelic dreamy parts of Pink Floyd, then i certainly would find Dragonforce more metal. Most of their songs are regular, riffs based metal, which has all the characteristics of the style, it is a music based around sharp, distorted guitar riffs, which are used in the traditional way. And Dragonforce are about million times more metal than LLN ambient projects, that is for sure. As for Pink Floyd inspired bands, i would depend, I would consider them seventies psychedelic rock inspired and not ambient inspired in that case. Black metal band inspired by psychedelic rock could be relatively interesting, but maybe also less consequently metal because of them. It would depend on their respective sound.

Are Moevot, Amaka Hahina and other ambient LLN bands dance music?

They are lightyears away from any real metal, extremely overrated for no apparent reason than their rarity and castle and suicide rumours, , largely worthless and certainly closer to Depeche Mode and other primarily electronic bands than to a real distorted guitar based band of any kind.
Also, they have spawned the millions of other such non-metal worthless side projects which plague myspace , and therefore derserve highest disrespect from anybody, who worships original metal values.

I have considered the discussion to be closed or left to die, but for you the last time - all electronic music including electro folk and ambient is in total contrast to everything real metal stands for and is to be despised by all people, who genuinely take metal seriously. Those who like something from it should have enough clear mind to know the gap between such stuff and real metal and should be polite and acknowledging to the roots of metal enough to consider it a "guilty pleasure" of his. It will never become an integral part of the metal scene, believe me, there will still be enough people who worship the "denim and leather" roots of the scene and who will watch over purity of the style and it will fade away, as nu-metal and other "cancerous" invasions have already started to do.

No it, is not part of metal culture, but a symbol of its attempted trendification and compromising, a symbol of decay.

EBM a part of a metal culture - perfect, great example of revisionism.

Rap would not become part of a metal culture, even when some bands would start rap side projects and the gangsta attitude would be likened to rebellios nature of black metal. Those are musically two completely different world and nothing would change it.

Of course it could be accepted in current black metal scene, the teenagers who largely form it were already growing up with techno, Aphex Twin and similar abominations.

Witcher, sorry, but, fuck rules.

Sure, why to have any standards at all. But you have forgotten, that this is a site, that has Metal in its name.
Even satanic pop or techno could be metal then, because it could appeal to black metal crowd.

It is not a question of rules, but of a knowledge about roots of metal, which many of you seemingly lack, or metal history starts and ends for you with black metal.

Now we only miss someone to tell us, that EBM is closer to metal that hard rock, because it is sooo uncommercial and underground, and that all side projects, especially Phil Lynott, should be deleted and only the true underground ambient ones should be left up, and the critical amount of unqualified nonsense would be totally filled for me.

The problem is, you guys are arguing apples and oranges. Hard rock was influential on metal through instrumentation and style, while dark ambient and all that stuff was influential on metal (mostly black, true) through its end effect, namely the atmosphere. These are two totally different realms, so arguing which has had "more influence" is just stupid, and any kind of attempt to measure influence quantitatively (i.e. "what number of bands cite X as an influence" or whatever) is going to be worthless anyway.

Now, what is relevant is arguing which type of influence is more important; instrumental and stylistic or atmospheric and emotional. I'd say the former (there is precedent, as in Rush, which I wouldn't say has a "metal" atmosphere at all), but frankly I don't know enough about the ambient bands in question to comment.

As you probably know, I'm with Witcher. If ambient walks hand in hand with metal, then so does cock rock, AOR and fusion, mallcore, and more recently emo, due to their respective connections with LA metal, prog metal, groove metal and metalcore.

That said, I'm a Kraftwerk and 60s' minimalism fan, and I don't feel any need to call those "guilty pleasures".

I never said that Ambient, EBM, Neofolk, folk and the like are Metal genres. They are not. But these are genres that most Metallers are fond of.

Which is only your personal assumption, based on the local part of one of the metal subscenes or your friends.
I could say as well, that metalheads would prefer handmade, sincere music, played on non-electronic instruments, like hard rock, jazz, blues, real folk music played on traditional instruments, and classical music and cite dozens of traditional/power musicians who see it as influential. From that aspect and instrumentation, even modern country is closer to metal than the various subgenres of electronic music That both leads nowhere. Once again, you are speaking for yourself and part of your subscene, as you could see, the thread starter was not particularly excited about such bands being here, even when he is a black metal fan.

Using guitars does not mean anything. Even Greek pop uses guitars. Does that make it Metal?

The thread starter talked about submissions. In this term, I agree with the MA rules. Only if it's a sideproject of a Metal musician a EBM band could be accepted here.

I can only talk about my country's scene. That's natural. I'm not generalizing not making assumptions about other countries. I just state what I realise every day when talking to fellow metalheads (off and online).

My conclusion is that:

Metalheads love music in general. They listen almost every genre that has some technicality in it.

PS: EBM is a genre that uses guitars frequently. Even Ritual Front (a Neofolk / Martial band) uses guitars in their last Cd.