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Muloc7253
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:47 am
Posts: 343
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:17 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
I'll have to agree with what droneriot said (except for the Tangerine Dream part cause Eno indeed created Ambient). Witcher, do you find bands like Epheles and Altoriu Seseliai (Black Metal band influenced by the proggy ambience of Pink Floyd) less Metal than Dragonforce and Kamelot? Are Moevot, Amaka Hahina and other ambient LLN bands dance music?

What happens to Folk? Is it dance music, too? Eastern European ambient bands have a very folky sound (Wojnar, Perunwit, Munruthel). However are these bands not to be accepted there?

What I'm trying to say is that ambient is a part of the Metal scene and a part of the Metal philosophy. Ambient music is not Metal per se but it is a part of the Metal culture. Ambient, EBM and Industrial projects (at least in Greece) walk hand in hand with the extreme Metal scene.


That is quite sad, when soundwise completely opposites walk hand in hand with metal scene, as sad, as when rap walks hand in hand with the rock scene, thanks to nu-metal.

What happens to Folk? Is it dance music, too? Eastern European ambient bands have a very folky sound (Wojnar, Perunwit, Munruthel). However are these bands not to be accepted there?

Those band are accepted solely as side projects of metal musicians (Munruthel has at least some metal material too during his solo carreer), in case you have not noticed yet, in fact, their music has to do with metal as rap does. As a seperate projects, most of such bands would go straight to the rejected list. They are about as metal as a jazz rock project of Alex Skolnick is, even less, since that is at least electric guitar based music.

And yes, several of the electronic folk bands who almost qualify as dance music, or even wholly, if you have heard the side project of Severnye Vrata member, which somebody tried to submit several month ago.

Metal culture is rock and loud distorted guitars, not electronic music, once and for all.

Where is the "no trends" part of Euronymous creed, then? it is long lost because of thousand other reasons.
Altoriu Seseliai- I have not heard the band, but if ,after the description, the band follows the psychedelic dreamy parts of Pink Floyd, then i certainly would find Dragonforce more metal. Most of their songs are regular, riffs based metal, which has all the characteristics of the style, it is a music based around sharp, distorted guitar riffs, which are used in the traditional way. And Dragonforce are about million times more metal than LLN ambient projects, that is for sure. As for Pink Floyd inspired bands, i would depend, I would consider them seventies psychedelic rock inspired and not ambient inspired in that case. Black metal band inspired by psychedelic rock could be relatively interesting, but maybe also less consequently metal because of them. It would depend on their respective sound.

Are Moevot, Amaka Hahina and other ambient LLN bands dance music?

They are lightyears away from any real metal, extremely overrated for no apparent reason than their rarity and castle and suicide rumours, , largely worthless and certainly closer to Depeche Mode and other primarily electronic bands than to a real distorted guitar based band of any kind.
Also, they have spawned the millions of other such non-metal worthless side projects which plague myspace , and therefore derserve highest disrespect from anybody, who worships original metal values.

I have considered the discussion to be closed or left to die, but for you the last time - all electronic music including electro folk and ambient is in total contrast to everything real metal stands for and is to be despised by all people, who genuinely take metal seriously. Those who like something from it should have enough clear mind to know the gap between such stuff and real metal and should be polite and acknowledging to the roots of metal enough to consider it a "guilty pleasure" of his. It will never become an integral part of the metal scene, believe me, there will still be enough people who worship the "denim and leather" roots of the scene and who will watch over purity of the style and it will fade away, as nu-metal and other "cancerous" invasions have already started to do.

No it, is not part of metal culture, but a symbol of its attempted trendification and compromising, a symbol of decay.

EBM a part of a metal culture - perfect, great example of revisionism.

Rap would not become part of a metal culture, even when some bands would start rap side projects and the gangsta attitude would be likened to rebellios nature of black metal. Those are musically two completely different world and nothing would change it.

Of course it could be accepted in current black metal scene, the teenagers who largely form it were already growing up with techno, Aphex Twin and similar abominations.


I never said that Ambient, EBM, Neofolk, folk and the like are Metal genres. They are not. But these are genres that most Metallers are fond of.


Which is only your personal assumption, based on the local part of one of the metal subscenes or your friends.
I could say as well, that metalheads would prefer handmade, sincere music, played on non-electronic instruments, like hard rock, jazz, blues, real folk music played on traditional instruments, and classical music and cite dozens of traditional/power musicians who see it as influential. From that aspect and instrumentation, even modern country is closer to metal than the various subgenres of electronic music That both leads nowhere. Once again, you are speaking for yourself and part of your subscene, as you could see, the thread starter was not particularly excited about such bands being here, even when he is a black metal fan.


Which you have done. You keep saying "metal is about this" and "metal fans prefer that", as if you're definition of what 'metal is all about' is the granddaddy of all opinions, and anything you disagree with or dislike it wrong, and must just be ignored as if it doesn't exist. The fact is, some metal bands claim to be influenced by hard rock, others ambient, others industrial, others punk etc. Ambient has nothing to do with your view of the metal world because you don't listen to any metal bands that are influenced by it, but many do. A lot of metalheads that also like ambient tend to discover it through metal, and the same goes for neofolk. And this is generally due to fans looking into ambient (or neofolk) side-projects of their favourite bands, enjoying it, and seeking similiar bands.
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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:25 pm 
 

Muloc7253 wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
I'll have to agree with what droneriot said (except for the Tangerine Dream part cause Eno indeed created Ambient). Witcher, do you find bands like

Epheles and Altoriu Seseliai (Black Metal band influenced by the proggy ambience of Pink Floyd) less Metal than Dragonforce and Kamelot? Are Moevot, Amaka Hahina and other ambient LLN bands dance music?

What happens to Folk? Is it dance music, too? Eastern European ambient bands have a very folky sound (Wojnar, Perunwit, Munruthel). However are these bands not to be accepted there?

What I'm trying to say is that ambient is a part of the Metal scene and a part of the Metal philosophy. Ambient music is not Metal per se but it is a part of the Metal culture. Ambient, EBM and Industrial projects (at least in Greece) walk hand in hand with the extreme Metal scene.


That is quite sad, when soundwise completely opposites walk hand in hand with metal scene, as sad, as when rap walks hand in hand with the rock scene, thanks to nu-metal.

What happens to Folk? Is it dance music, too? Eastern European ambient bands have a very folky sound (Wojnar, Perunwit, Munruthel). However are these bands not to be accepted there?

Those band are accepted solely as side projects of metal musicians (Munruthel has at least some metal material too during his solo carreer), in case you have not noticed yet, in fact, their music has to do with metal as rap does. As a seperate projects, most of such bands would go straight to the rejected list. They are about as metal as a jazz rock project of Alex Skolnick is, even less, since that is at least electric guitar based music.

And yes, several of the electronic folk bands who almost qualify as dance music, or even wholly, if you have heard the side project of Severnye Vrata member, which somebody tried to submit several month ago.

Metal culture is rock and loud distorted guitars, not electronic music, once and for all.

Where is the "no trends" part of Euronymous creed, then? it is long lost because of thousand other reasons.
Altoriu Seseliai- I have not heard the band, but if ,after the description, the band follows the psychedelic dreamy parts of Pink Floyd, then i certainly would find Dragonforce more metal. Most of their songs are regular, riffs based metal, which has all the characteristics of the style, it is a music based around sharp, distorted guitar riffs, which are used in the traditional way. And Dragonforce are about million times more metal than LLN ambient projects, that is for sure. As for Pink Floyd inspired bands, i would depend, I would consider them seventies psychedelic rock inspired and not ambient inspired in that case. Black metal band inspired by psychedelic rock could be relatively interesting, but maybe also less consequently metal because of them. It would depend on their respective sound.

Are Moevot, Amaka Hahina and other ambient LLN bands dance music?

They are lightyears away from any real metal, extremely overrated for no apparent reason than their rarity and castle and suicide rumours, , largely worthless and certainly closer to Depeche Mode and other primarily electronic bands than to a real distorted guitar based band of any kind.
Also, they have spawned the millions of other such non-metal worthless side projects which plague myspace , and therefore derserve highest disrespect from anybody, who worships original metal values.

I have considered the discussion to be closed or left to die, but for you the last time - all electronic music including electro folk and ambient is in total contrast to everything real metal stands for and is to be despised by all people, who genuinely take metal seriously. Those who like something from it should have enough clear mind to know the gap between such stuff and real metal and should be polite and acknowledging to the roots of metal enough to consider it a "guilty pleasure" of his. It will never become an integral part of the metal scene, believe me, there will still be enough people who worship the "denim and leather" roots of the scene and who will watch over purity of the style and it will fade away, as nu-metal and other "cancerous" invasions have already started to do.

No it, is not part of metal culture, but a symbol of its attempted trendification and compromising, a symbol of decay.

EBM a part of a metal culture - perfect, great example of revisionism.

Rap would not become part of a metal culture, even when some bands would start rap side projects and the gangsta attitude would be likened to rebellios nature of black metal. Those are musically two completely different world and nothing would change it.

Of course it could be accepted in current black metal scene, the teenagers who largely form it were already growing up with techno, Aphex Twin and similar abominations.


I never said that Ambient, EBM, Neofolk, folk and the like are Metal genres. They are not. But these are genres that most Metallers are fond of.


Which is only your personal assumption, based on the local part of one of the metal subscenes or your friends.
I could say as well, that metalheads would prefer handmade, sincere music, played on non-electronic instruments, like hard rock, jazz, blues, real folk music played on traditional instruments, and classical music and cite dozens of traditional/power musicians who see it as influential. From that aspect and instrumentation, even modern country is closer to metal than the various subgenres of electronic music That both leads nowhere. Once again, you are speaking for yourself and part of your subscene, as you could see, the thread starter was not particularly excited about such bands being here, even when he is a black metal fan.


Which you have done. You keep saying "metal is about this" and "metal fans prefer that", as if you're definition of what 'metal is all about' is the granddaddy of all opinions, and anything you disagree with or dislike it wrong, and must just be ignored as if it doesn't exist. The fact is, some metal bands claim to be influenced by hard rock, others ambient, others industrial, others punk etc. Ambient has nothing to do with your view of the metal world because you don't listen to any metal bands that are influenced by it, but many do. A lot of metalheads that also like ambient tend to discover it through metal, and the same goes for neofolk. And this is generally due to fans looking into ambient (or neofolk) side-projects of their favourite bands, enjoying it, and seeking similiar bands.


Once again, that does not make any of such projects more metal or more part of metal scene than jazz for example. And I think that, we all will agree, that metal is anything but experimental electronic based music, or industrial based experimental music. My opinion is very objective in that aspect, so your sophisms are out of place here. Metal as a style has pretty fixed contures, which has to be fullfilled, in oder to be considered as such. A fact accepted by both fans and musical critics.


If you want it the hard way, people may like it, but those who claim it is especially metal related are as untrue in the Manowar sense of word as those who claim mallcore is especially metal related. Many teenagers found real metal through mallcore first . Is it more real metal related then?
Most of here have agreed, that ambient has nothing to do with metal musically, even the opponents, in case you have not noticed.

Many find also classical composers through metal, but that does not make them a part of metal scene.

It is interesting, that elitism flourishes in black metal scene in many ways, but not in the refusal to touch styles, which are musically, compository and instrumentally absolutely
metal unrelated.

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Muloc7253
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:47 am
Posts: 343
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:42 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Muloc7253 wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
I'll have to agree with what droneriot said (except for the Tangerine Dream part cause Eno indeed created Ambient). Witcher, do you find bands like

Epheles and Altoriu Seseliai (Black Metal band influenced by the proggy ambience of Pink Floyd) less Metal than Dragonforce and Kamelot? Are Moevot, Amaka Hahina and other ambient LLN bands dance music?

What happens to Folk? Is it dance music, too? Eastern European ambient bands have a very folky sound (Wojnar, Perunwit, Munruthel). However are these bands not to be accepted there?

What I'm trying to say is that ambient is a part of the Metal scene and a part of the Metal philosophy. Ambient music is not Metal per se but it is a part of the Metal culture. Ambient, EBM and Industrial projects (at least in Greece) walk hand in hand with the extreme Metal scene.


That is quite sad, when soundwise completely opposites walk hand in hand with metal scene, as sad, as when rap walks hand in hand with the rock scene, thanks to nu-metal.

What happens to Folk? Is it dance music, too? Eastern European ambient bands have a very folky sound (Wojnar, Perunwit, Munruthel). However are these bands not to be accepted there?

Those band are accepted solely as side projects of metal musicians (Munruthel has at least some metal material too during his solo carreer), in case you have not noticed yet, in fact, their music has to do with metal as rap does. As a seperate projects, most of such bands would go straight to the rejected list. They are about as metal as a jazz rock project of Alex Skolnick is, even less, since that is at least electric guitar based music.

And yes, several of the electronic folk bands who almost qualify as dance music, or even wholly, if you have heard the side project of Severnye Vrata member, which somebody tried to submit several month ago.

Metal culture is rock and loud distorted guitars, not electronic music, once and for all.

Where is the "no trends" part of Euronymous creed, then? it is long lost because of thousand other reasons.
Altoriu Seseliai- I have not heard the band, but if ,after the description, the band follows the psychedelic dreamy parts of Pink Floyd, then i certainly would find Dragonforce more metal. Most of their songs are regular, riffs based metal, which has all the characteristics of the style, it is a music based around sharp, distorted guitar riffs, which are used in the traditional way. And Dragonforce are about million times more metal than LLN ambient projects, that is for sure. As for Pink Floyd inspired bands, i would depend, I would consider them seventies psychedelic rock inspired and not ambient inspired in that case. Black metal band inspired by psychedelic rock could be relatively interesting, but maybe also less consequently metal because of them. It would depend on their respective sound.

Are Moevot, Amaka Hahina and other ambient LLN bands dance music?

They are lightyears away from any real metal, extremely overrated for no apparent reason than their rarity and castle and suicide rumours, , largely worthless and certainly closer to Depeche Mode and other primarily electronic bands than to a real distorted guitar based band of any kind.
Also, they have spawned the millions of other such non-metal worthless side projects which plague myspace , and therefore derserve highest disrespect from anybody, who worships original metal values.

I have considered the discussion to be closed or left to die, but for you the last time - all electronic music including electro folk and ambient is in total contrast to everything real metal stands for and is to be despised by all people, who genuinely take metal seriously. Those who like something from it should have enough clear mind to know the gap between such stuff and real metal and should be polite and acknowledging to the roots of metal enough to consider it a "guilty pleasure" of his. It will never become an integral part of the metal scene, believe me, there will still be enough people who worship the "denim and leather" roots of the scene and who will watch over purity of the style and it will fade away, as nu-metal and other "cancerous" invasions have already started to do.

No it, is not part of metal culture, but a symbol of its attempted trendification and compromising, a symbol of decay.

EBM a part of a metal culture - perfect, great example of revisionism.

Rap would not become part of a metal culture, even when some bands would start rap side projects and the gangsta attitude would be likened to rebellios nature of black metal. Those are musically two completely different world and nothing would change it.

Of course it could be accepted in current black metal scene, the teenagers who largely form it were already growing up with techno, Aphex Twin and similar abominations.


I never said that Ambient, EBM, Neofolk, folk and the like are Metal genres. They are not. But these are genres that most Metallers are fond of.


Which is only your personal assumption, based on the local part of one of the metal subscenes or your friends.
I could say as well, that metalheads would prefer handmade, sincere music, played on non-electronic instruments, like hard rock, jazz, blues, real folk music played on traditional instruments, and classical music and cite dozens of traditional/power musicians who see it as influential. From that aspect and instrumentation, even modern country is closer to metal than the various subgenres of electronic music That both leads nowhere. Once again, you are speaking for yourself and part of your subscene, as you could see, the thread starter was not particularly excited about such bands being here, even when he is a black metal fan.


Which you have done. You keep saying "metal is about this" and "metal fans prefer that", as if you're definition of what 'metal is all about' is the granddaddy of all opinions, and anything you disagree with or dislike it wrong, and must just be ignored as if it doesn't exist. The fact is, some metal bands claim to be influenced by hard rock, others ambient, others industrial, others punk etc. Ambient has nothing to do with your view of the metal world because you don't listen to any metal bands that are influenced by it, but many do. A lot of metalheads that also like ambient tend to discover it through metal, and the same goes for neofolk. And this is generally due to fans looking into ambient (or neofolk) side-projects of their favourite bands, enjoying it, and seeking similiar bands.


Once again, that does not make any of such projects more metal or more part of metal scene than jazz for example. And I think that, we all will agree, that metal is anything but experimental electronic based music, or industrial based experimental music. My opinion is very objective in that aspect, so your sophisms are out of place here. Metal as a style has pretty fixed contures, which has to be fullfilled, in oder to be considered as such. A fact accepted by both fans and musical critics.


If you want it the hard way, people may like it, but those who claim it is especially metal related are as untrue in the Manowar sense of word as those who claim mallcore is especially metal related. Many teenagers found real metal through mallcore first . Is it more real metal related then?
Most of here have agreed, that ambient has nothing to do with metal musically, even the opponents, in case you have not noticed.

Many find also classical composers through metal, but that does not make them a part of metal scene.

It is interesting, that elitism flourishes in black metal scene in many ways, but not in the refusal to touch styles, which are musically, compository and instrumentally absolutely
metal unrelated.


Simply put, yes. Mallcore bands tend to show a hinting towards metal, heck, that's why the more clueless magazines dubbed it Nu-'Metal'.

And just so you know, i'm far from a black metal purist, and am much more into Saxon, Scorpions, Van Halen et cetera. And also for the record, I much much much prefer hard rock over ambient music any day, but it's undeniable that it has no link whatsoever with the metal scene as of today.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 638
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:45 pm 
 

Is all that quoting necessary?
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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:51 pm 
 

Yes and for ambient, there is not even the hinting. It is an "influence from the outside world".

As for hard rock - have you heard for example Evidence One, who clearly follow the hard rock tradition and combine it with more updated, power metal sound? Or Shakra? It has a link to the more melodic genres of metal, not only in atmospheric, moody sense, but direct compository influence.

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Muloc7253
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:47 am
Posts: 343
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:30 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Yes and for ambient, there is not even the hinting. It is an "influence from the outside world".

As for hard rock - have you heard for example Evidence One, who clearly follow the hard rock tradition and combine it with more updated, power metal sound? Or Shakra? It has a link to the more melodic genres of metal, not only in atmospheric, moody sense, but direct compository influence.


Have you heard Burzum? Summoning? Xasthur? Graveland?

I know, I know, they're all black metal bands, but all of your examples will fall under traditional or power metal.

This discussion's getting silly now, and I can't see it working out well. Of every argument i've had or witnessed in metal, the opposing sides never agree and always end up leaving the discussion with the same beliefs they had before they started, should we just agree to disagree? Fact is, neither ambient nor hard rock are metal, so they don't belong unless they're side-projects, which is what the thread was all about anyway.
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Nightgaunt
I'll Swallow Your Soul

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:50 pm
Posts: 2922
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:16 pm 
 

This illustrates why I've cautioned certain of you against sounding this issue (those who I am addressing know who they are)--the resulting denouement results in nothing but alienation and counterproductive collateral damage, for we are seldom able to fully control our emotions.

For the nonce, it seems patently unreasonable to hold that sub-subcultural preference or nebulous social association alone should constitute the effective criterion by which admission to the site is judged; unfortunately, the SP rule has the side-effect of obscuring or distorting this fact. On the other hand, however, it is equally as unreasonable or short-sighted to portray oneself as an unstained, valiant champion of metal's "purity of essence" while one willingly allows for the admission of modern metalcore and half-breed groove product to the site on the basis of something as gross as wave-shape alone.

Food for thought.
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