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cweed
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:48 pm
Posts: 500
Location: LFK, USA
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:24 pm 
 

Perhaps it's just me, but I think it's time to distinguish "Viking/Folk" bands like Ensiferum, Turisas, Finntroll, Thyrfing (earlier stuff), Moonsorrow, Equilibrium, etc. from other "Viking/Folk" bands like Otyg, Korpiklaani, Cruachan, Lumsk, Einherjer, etc.
I'm going out on a limb here, but "Battle Metal" seems like a legitimate name for the former because all of their songs are bombastic, epic, melodic, mostly keyboard-driven, and would be named after the Turisas album "Battle Metal."
If this has already been discussed, then sorry to bring it up, but I spent awhile scouring the forum and I couldn't find anything...also, when I searched for "Battle" under musical genres, I found only one band that seemed to be fairly obscure...does anyone have any thoughts on this? Could "Battle Metal" serve as a legitimate genre in the future?

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JoeCapricorn
Needs to stop pissing off the mods

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:36 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:13 am 
 

No, it's a pseudo genre.

We document metal, we don't "invent new genres" or "come up with zany new names for new sounding bands"

We put existing tags onto bands when needed.


For example:

Cannibal Corpse is death metal - not gore metal.


But then, who would be able to tell the difference between battle metal and "war metal"? War Metal is a term used for some black metal bands, I dunno why though, not all are about war...

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cweed
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:48 pm
Posts: 500
Location: LFK, USA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:01 am 
 

JoeCapricorn wrote:
No, it's a pseudo genre.

We document metal, we don't "invent new genres" or "come up with zany new names for new sounding bands"

We put existing tags onto bands when needed.


For example:

Cannibal Corpse is death metal - not gore metal.


But then, who would be able to tell the difference between battle metal and "war metal"? War Metal is a term used for some black metal bands, I dunno why though, not all are about war...


Yeah, I know, I'm just trying to point out that at some point in the future "Battle Metal" may become a legitimate genre for these types of bands with similar sounds, kind of like how "Viking Metal" and "Folk Metal" became in the not too recent past. This was just a suggestion...
The "war metal" genre may come into its own, or it may not...it seems though that bands being dubbed/dubbing themselves "war metal" vary more widely in sound than the bands I proposed as "Battle Metal."
Furthermore, I remember where I came up with this idea in the first place...I was browsing through a metal magazine awhile back (it may have been Metal Hammer, I can't remember) and they were talking about the best albums of the year, divided by genre...one genre they included was "Battle Metal," which had a bunch of the bands that were previously mentioned (although I think their definition went on to include bands like Amon Amarth and Korpiklaani, which don't quite fit the "Battle Metal" mold that I suggested).

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 1181
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:38 am 
 

Well, it could happen in the future, who can tell? Five years ago, how many people had heard of "atmospheric sludge" or "metalcore"?

The real point is that M-A will only adopt a new tag when it becomes reasonably familiar to the metal community.

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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 4385
Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:53 am 
 

JoeCapricorn wrote:
But then, who would be able to tell the difference between battle metal and "war metal"? War Metal is a term used for some black metal bands, I dunno why though, not all are about war...


"War metal" is used to describe those dirty, raw black metal bands that mix in a bit of death metal. Good examples are Bestial Warlust and Blasphemy. But it's just a tag, essentially they're black metal bands with a bit of death metal.

Battle Metal? No, just a tag, it's like calling something "sci-fi metal" or similar, just a stupid tag, often describing lyrical themes.

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AurvandiL
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 562
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:12 pm 
 

War Metal on this site usually refers to pagan/sort of nationalistic black metal, (additionnaly with a epic or folkish vibe).

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MushroomStamp
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:07 pm
Posts: 395
Location: Helsinki, Finland
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:25 pm 
 

AurvandiL wrote:
War Metal on this site usually refers to pagan/sort of nationalistic black metal, (additionnaly with a epic or folkish vibe).


Uhh... no? How many of these are pagan/folk/nationalist bands? Five, maybe six?
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AurvandiL
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 562
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:29 pm 
 

Then the "war" label should not be employed. Period.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6344
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:31 pm 
 

MushroomStamp wrote:
AurvandiL wrote:
War Metal on this site usually refers to pagan/sort of nationalistic black metal, (additionnaly with a epic or folkish vibe).


Uhh... no? How many of these are pagan/folk/nationalist bands? Five, maybe six?

I agree with you (Mushroom), your definition is exactly what I feel would fit under the term, and the mainly South American bands who use the term obviously feel the same, judging from their sound.

But the term is still rather vague stamp, which is not particularly descriptive of the music, not much more then the controversial "dark metal" is.

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AurvandiL
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 562
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:33 pm 
 

I guess no line can be accurately drawn. Thus making this topic obsolete. :)

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10484
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:27 pm 
 

JoeCapricorn wrote:
We document metal, we don't "invent new genres" or "come up with zany new names for new sounding bands"

How about "mallcore"? Or how about people still submitting bands as "half-thrash"?
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9994
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:17 pm 
 

Mallcore is just a slur for nu-metal, that we use as a replacement since nu-metal is a misnomer - and we didn't invent it.

I think you might have a point about half-thrash, but honestly, what else should we call that stuff? :scratch:

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10484
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:21 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
I think you might have a point about half-thrash, but honestly, what else should we call that stuff? :scratch:

Wasn't it just a different word for groove metal? Or is there any significant difference I'm missing?
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Shadoeking
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:34 am
Posts: 1251
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:47 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
I think you might have a point about half-thrash, but honestly, what else should we call that stuff? :scratch:

Wasn't it just a different word for groove metal? Or is there any significant difference I'm missing?


That's what I thought it was.

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666head
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:33 pm 
 

cweed wrote:
JoeCapricorn wrote:
No, it's a pseudo genre.

We document metal, we don't "invent new genres" or "come up with zany new names for new sounding bands"

We put existing tags onto bands when needed.


For example:

Cannibal Corpse is death metal - not gore metal.


But then, who would be able to tell the difference between battle metal and "war metal"? War Metal is a term used for some black metal bands, I dunno why though, not all are about war...


Yeah, I know, I'm just trying to point out that at some point in the future "Battle Metal" may become a legitimate genre for these types of bands with similar sounds, kind of like how "Viking Metal" and "Folk Metal" became in the not too recent past. This was just a suggestion...
The "war metal" genre may come into its own, or it may not...it seems though that bands being dubbed/dubbing themselves "war metal" vary more widely in sound than the bands I proposed as "Battle Metal."
Furthermore, I remember where I came up with this idea in the first place...I was browsing through a metal magazine awhile back (it may have been Metal Hammer, I can't remember) and they were talking about the best albums of the year, divided by genre...one genre they included was "Battle Metal," which had a bunch of the bands that were previously mentioned (although I think their definition went on to include bands like Amon Amarth and Korpiklaani, which don't quite fit the "Battle Metal" mold that I suggested).


Since when are folk metal and viking metal different?
Hell, they're the exact same thing, the only difference would be that folk metal is a better name, since not all bands have viking roots.
"Sub-Genres" like viking metal and battle metal only serve to confuse people, since they aren't very accurate (though the term battle metal sounds cool, I gotta admit) and besides, identifing "new" sub-genres is actually kinda lame and a bit childish (I too do it sometimes), and in my opinion, should only be made for personal use only , and thats it. It would also help to define what is epic and what is not.

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HelloCthulhu
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:54 am
Posts: 165
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:08 am 
 

666head wrote:
cweed wrote:
JoeCapricorn wrote:
No, it's a pseudo genre.

We document metal, we don't "invent new genres" or "come up with zany new names for new sounding bands"

We put existing tags onto bands when needed.


For example:

Cannibal Corpse is death metal - not gore metal.


But then, who would be able to tell the difference between battle metal and "war metal"? War Metal is a term used for some black metal bands, I dunno why though, not all are about war...


Yeah, I know, I'm just trying to point out that at some point in the future "Battle Metal" may become a legitimate genre for these types of bands with similar sounds, kind of like how "Viking Metal" and "Folk Metal" became in the not too recent past. This was just a suggestion...
The "war metal" genre may come into its own, or it may not...it seems though that bands being dubbed/dubbing themselves "war metal" vary more widely in sound than the bands I proposed as "Battle Metal."
Furthermore, I remember where I came up with this idea in the first place...I was browsing through a metal magazine awhile back (it may have been Metal Hammer, I can't remember) and they were talking about the best albums of the year, divided by genre...one genre they included was "Battle Metal," which had a bunch of the bands that were previously mentioned (although I think their definition went on to include bands like Amon Amarth and Korpiklaani, which don't quite fit the "Battle Metal" mold that I suggested).


Since when are folk metal and viking metal different?
Hell, they're the exact same thing, the only difference would be that folk metal is a better name, since not all bands have viking roots.
"Sub-Genres" like viking metal and battle metal only serve to confuse people, since they aren't very accurate (though the term battle metal sounds cool, I gotta admit) and besides, identifing "new" sub-genres is actually kinda lame and a bit childish (I too do it sometimes), and in my opinion, should only be made for personal use only , and thats it. It would also help to define what is epic and what is not.


In my mind, the biggest difference between Folk Metal and Viking Metal, is that Viking Metal employs a lot more black metal influences. Like Thyrfing compared to Otyg.

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666head
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:02 am 
 

HelloCthulhu wrote:
666head wrote:
cweed wrote:
JoeCapricorn wrote:
No, it's a pseudo genre.

We document metal, we don't "invent new genres" or "come up with zany new names for new sounding bands"

We put existing tags onto bands when needed.


For example:

Cannibal Corpse is death metal - not gore metal.


But then, who would be able to tell the difference between battle metal and "war metal"? War Metal is a term used for some black metal bands, I dunno why though, not all are about war...


Yeah, I know, I'm just trying to point out that at some point in the future "Battle Metal" may become a legitimate genre for these types of bands with similar sounds, kind of like how "Viking Metal" and "Folk Metal" became in the not too recent past. This was just a suggestion...
The "war metal" genre may come into its own, or it may not...it seems though that bands being dubbed/dubbing themselves "war metal" vary more widely in sound than the bands I proposed as "Battle Metal."
Furthermore, I remember where I came up with this idea in the first place...I was browsing through a metal magazine awhile back (it may have been Metal Hammer, I can't remember) and they were talking about the best albums of the year, divided by genre...one genre they included was "Battle Metal," which had a bunch of the bands that were previously mentioned (although I think their definition went on to include bands like Amon Amarth and Korpiklaani, which don't quite fit the "Battle Metal" mold that I suggested).


Since when are folk metal and viking metal different?
Hell, they're the exact same thing, the only difference would be that folk metal is a better name, since not all bands have viking roots.
"Sub-Genres" like viking metal and battle metal only serve to confuse people, since they aren't very accurate (though the term battle metal sounds cool, I gotta admit) and besides, identifing "new" sub-genres is actually kinda lame and a bit childish (I too do it sometimes), and in my opinion, should only be made for personal use only , and thats it. It would also help to define what is epic and what is not.


In my mind, the biggest difference between Folk Metal and Viking Metal, is that Viking Metal employs a lot more black metal influences. Like Thyrfing compared to Otyg.


Well, if you put it that way, then yeah, but most people would classify Ensiferum and Turisas as viking metal also, and that when the problems begin...

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dust666
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 677
Location: Romania
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:17 am 
 

HelloCthulhu wrote:
666head wrote:
cweed wrote:
JoeCapricorn wrote:
No, it's a pseudo genre.

We document metal, we don't "invent new genres" or "come up with zany new names for new sounding bands"

We put existing tags onto bands when needed.


For example:

Cannibal Corpse is death metal - not gore metal.


But then, who would be able to tell the difference between battle metal and "war metal"? War Metal is a term used for some black metal bands, I dunno why though, not all are about war...


Yeah, I know, I'm just trying to point out that at some point in the future "Battle Metal" may become a legitimate genre for these types of bands with similar sounds, kind of like how "Viking Metal" and "Folk Metal" became in the not too recent past. This was just a suggestion...
The "war metal" genre may come into its own, or it may not...it seems though that bands being dubbed/dubbing themselves "war metal" vary more widely in sound than the bands I proposed as "Battle Metal."
Furthermore, I remember where I came up with this idea in the first place...I was browsing through a metal magazine awhile back (it may have been Metal Hammer, I can't remember) and they were talking about the best albums of the year, divided by genre...one genre they included was "Battle Metal," which had a bunch of the bands that were previously mentioned (although I think their definition went on to include bands like Amon Amarth and Korpiklaani, which don't quite fit the "Battle Metal" mold that I suggested).


Since when are folk metal and viking metal different?
Hell, they're the exact same thing, the only difference would be that folk metal is a better name, since not all bands have viking roots.
"Sub-Genres" like viking metal and battle metal only serve to confuse people, since they aren't very accurate (though the term battle metal sounds cool, I gotta admit) and besides, identifing "new" sub-genres is actually kinda lame and a bit childish (I too do it sometimes), and in my opinion, should only be made for personal use only , and thats it. It would also help to define what is epic and what is not.


In my mind, the biggest difference between Folk Metal and Viking Metal, is that Viking Metal employs a lot more black metal influences. Like Thyrfing compared to Otyg.

For example, Orphaned Land is folk metal, but it has nothing to do with viking metal. In my mind viking metal is folkish power influenced black metal with a clear bathory influence, while folk metal combines folk melodies with any type of metal. For example korpiklaani is folk/thrash, finntroll is folk/melodic death.

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Radagast
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:41 pm
Posts: 219
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:48 pm 
 

cweed wrote:
Furthermore, I remember where I came up with this idea in the first place...I was browsing through a metal magazine awhile back (it may have been Metal Hammer, I can't remember) and they were talking about the best albums of the year, divided by genre...one genre they included was "Battle Metal," which had a bunch of the bands that were previously mentioned (although I think their definition went on to include bands like Amon Amarth and Korpiklaani, which don't quite fit the "Battle Metal" mold that I suggested).

To try and use Metal(core) Hammer as any form of validation for using Battle Metal as a genre is pretty weak.

It's that shitrag of a magazine that is trying to push Battle Metal as a real genre, when all they use it for is a catch-all that includes the folk and power metal bands they deam cool enough. Their poster boys DragonForce are Battle Metal but they still constantly put down other Power Metal bands that play the exact same style.

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cweed
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:48 pm
Posts: 500
Location: LFK, USA
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:29 pm 
 

Radagast wrote:
cweed wrote:
Furthermore, I remember where I came up with this idea in the first place...I was browsing through a metal magazine awhile back (it may have been Metal Hammer, I can't remember) and they were talking about the best albums of the year, divided by genre...one genre they included was "Battle Metal," which had a bunch of the bands that were previously mentioned (although I think their definition went on to include bands like Amon Amarth and Korpiklaani, which don't quite fit the "Battle Metal" mold that I suggested).

To try and use Metal(core) Hammer as any form of validation for using Battle Metal as a genre is pretty weak.

It's that shitrag of a magazine that is trying to push Battle Metal as a real genre, when all they use it for is a catch-all that includes the folk and power metal bands they deam cool enough. Their poster boys DragonForce are Battle Metal but they still constantly put down other Power Metal bands that play the exact same style.


It wasn't my intention to use Metal Hammer to validate why Battle Metal should be a genre, I was just saying I think that's where I got the idea because I disagreed with alot of the bands they had tagged as "Battle Metal," (like I said before).

The reason why I'm proposing "Battle Metal" as a legitimate sub-genre for categorization is because I believe that there are enough bands now with similar musical styles and sounds that would fit the mold for a "Battle Metal" categorization. "Battle Metal" seems like an appropriate enough sub-genre name because the epitome of this style can be heard on Turisas' first album, "Battle Metal." We've seen this before with other bands, like Venom with "Black Metal," Possessed with "Death Metal," etc. Obviously, one could bring up a counter example with Exhumed's "Gore Metal." Gore Metal isn't recognized as a legitimate genre because it's usually just Death Metal or a mix of Death Metal and Grind with lyrical themes of, well, gore.

I'm not saying that "Battle Metal" is a genre that needs to be applied immediately. Even I don't use the term "Battle Metal" when talking about these bands. What I am SUGGESTING, however, is that the genres used in categorizing these bands that I would dub "Battle Metal" don't really work. Ensiferum, Turisas, Equilibrium, etc., these bands are categorized as Viking Metal, or Viking/Folk Metal, and yet they sound wayyy different than the original Viking bands like Bathory (Viking-era, obviously) Enslaved (circa "Eld"), Einherjer, Mithotyn, etc, and yet all of these bands are (or were) considered Viking Metal bands, thus making the term "Viking Metal" kind of sketchy.

I believe "Battle Metal" works because for one, all of the bands I've mentioned that I would consider "Battle Metal" sound very similar. Secondly, we're not talking about a handful of bands that would be considered "Battle Metal." There's already a significant number of these groups that all play this "Battle Metal" style- epic keyboards, very melodic, upbeat, well-produced, gang vocals, etc. (you guys know what I'm talking about!).

Lastly, I'm not really how to say this without providing an example. Alestorm is a band that sound quite similar to Turisas, but they don't sing about Vikings, they sing about pirates. Obviously, if two bands play significantly similar styles, it makes sense to categorize them into the same genre- for example, if you heard Severe Torture for the first time, you'd say, "Wow that sounds alot like Cannibal Corpse." If someone else asked you what Severe Torture sounded like, you would say they're a death metal band. Even if Severe Torture's lyrics were about subjects other than the macabre (hypothetically), musically the style of metal they play is still death metal. So why is it that Alestorm, who are musically quite similar to Turisas, are labeled as "Folk/Power Metal?" It's because they don't sing about Vikings! If they sang about Vikings, they'd most likely be considered by Metal Archives as a Viking/Folk Metal band, like Turisas. Thus, Alestorm call their style "True Scottish Pirate Metal." If you search the Archives for "Pirate Metal," you won't find anything. If you search for bands that sing about pirates, you'll indeed find a few bands that can all apply to the genre of "Pirate Metal," except their musical styles differ too much, thus making the term "Pirate Metal" kind of bogus as a legitimate genre. Even if "Battle Metal" does become a legitimate, recognized genre one day, Alestorm would still probably call themselves "True Scottish Pirate Metal," but their style of metal would be considered "Battle Metal." Conversely, if Turisas didn't sing about Vikings, does that mean that they too would be awkwardly tagged as "Folk/Power Metal?" That doesn't make sense.

Damn. Didn't realize this was going to turn into a novel. Hopefully what I'm saying makes sense. I suppose all I'm suggesting, since this is, after all, the "Suggestions and Complaints" section, is that perhaps it's time to consider that this certain crop of emerging bands is the beginning of a new metal genre. Who knows what the status of metal genre categorization will be five or ten years down the road, but for now, I'm just calling to attention that applying the "Viking Metal" or "Viking/Folk Metal" tag to these new bands is becoming increasingly flawed. I'm not suggesting that "Battle Metal" needs to become an internationally recognized metal genre immediately, but that I believe that it is definitely an appropriate tag for these new bands, and if the name sticks then I believe it will make categorizing these new bands alot less awkward.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6344
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:47 am 
 

If such style tag becomes an appropriate, internationally recognized style tag for such bands, then it can be changed, not sooner.

All those bands you are talking about have formed their music using elements and parts of other existing styles, and I think we cannot expect a completely new, innovative metal style to emerge soon.

As for the Folk bands, they usually mix an already existing metal style with folk leanings, are using fol instruments or melodies played in a style of an existing metal genres.

"If they sang about Vikings, they'd most likely be considered by Metal Archives as a Viking/Folk Metal band, like Turisas."

Definitely not, their melodies seem to more derived from "sea shanties" (that is actually positive in my book, before their producer comes to raise hell again) than Scandinavian folkloire.
And listen to songs like Heavy Metal Pirates for an obvious, all encompassing power metal influences.

As for Finntrol, their black metal roots are clearly hearable and undeniable, especially on their older releases.

And once again, to go by the definitions of British Metal Hammer would be a way to hell, they have called Skyclad a silly heathen metal band and praised their drummer for joining 3 Colours Red, which they considered an innovative band with future.
And where are they now?? So much about that.

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