It has been explained here before that funeral doom is a variant of doom/death metal. At least try to follow the discussion, before you make absurd claims here.

Shape of Despairs music is derived from doom/death and not traditional doom of the Trouble, Candlemass, Saint Vitus, Count Raven etc type. Just see the musical pedigree of the members and their past bands.

I strongly advise you against doing that.

Saying funeral doom is death/doom because it evolved from it is like saying Black Sabbath is blues.

Okay then I wont. that's not to say the reports will stop, but will be from others every now and then since it is an error and others will see it in the future and report it every once in a while.



Evoken is a funeral doom/death band. They have death metal riffs and structure, even blast beats. Esoteric is same way. Shape of Despair? no death metal and they are funeral doom

Is there is any specific reason why atmospheric doom is not listed in the database? Such bands as early The 3rd And The Mortal (Tears Laid In Earth), Skumring, As Divine Grace (The full lengths), and a few other bands. Most who contain more elements in their sounds as well, gothic seems the most prevalent. It may not be the most common style, but it definitely feels distinct to me.

Here are some examples:

The 3rd and the mortal-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKKcPqE20bs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNAjQPAl ... re=related

Skumring-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjjaNbue ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vHza34Zok

As Divine Grace-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egh_qLq4lMk
(Only other track on youtube is from their EP and a lot more deathy then either album)

Dartflight (Example of a band with both gothic and black elements mixed in)-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UOPciBHDp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvJaWckz ... re=related

And lastly, a gothic/doom band which demonstrates the difference between the two styles (A lot more bombastic, is the biggest difference):

Chalice-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmLytvBH ... re=related

Some bands are listed as atmospheric doom metal.

http://metal-archives.com/advanced.php? ... ease_year=

Oh my, I would of thought I would of looked it up...

None of the popular examples though (Like 3rd and the mortal). And some of them I don't even remember being metal (blazing Eternity), though maybe I just heard the wrong album.

Shape Of Despair are doom/death based. If you do not hear it, then it is your problem.
I rpeat, funeral doom is a variant of doom/death and, as such, has to be death metal based. It does not need blastbets to be so.

Droneriot's example with Black Sabbath does not apply here. We are tallking here about subgenres within one metal subgenre, which are all somehow related.

Nobody said anything about blastbeats. A death metal riff or two would help, though...

My Black Sabbath example applies much more than any comparisons between Shape of Despair and Morbid Angel.

My Dying Bride - As the Flower Withers... - death metal mixed with doom metal - that's death/doom
Paradise Lost - Lost Paradise - death metal mixed with doom metal - that's death/doom
Anathema - Serenades - death metal mixed with doom metal - that's death/doom

Funeral doom - slow doom metal mixed with dark ambient and growled vocals and ZERO death metal riffing - that's not death/doom

Let me clarify, I did look up many different bands which should have this tag (Over a course of a few months and I will post some more on it later when I remember most of them), but it never occurred to me to use the advanced search...unfortunately.



Is this true? How about Fallen, Dictator, and Fallen? True, many funeral doom bands do contain death metal elements in one form or another, but how exactly is it a requirement?



As Witcher said earlier, there are many more facets to death/doom then the peaceville 3 and his excellent example was Sempiternal Deathreign, give them a listen.

I was referring to your mütiilation of the English language.

That doesn't change the fact that "death/doom" stands for "a mixture between death metal and doom metal". If it isn't part death metal then it isn't death/doom. If it doesn't contain any death metal riffs then it isn't part death metal. Growled vocals don't make death metal, otherwise any goregrind and any deathcore band would be death metal.

As funeral doom is an evolutionary step of doom/death, the riffs do have something in common with death metal. It is not a genre that would evolve out of nothing. There are two main streamings in doom - the traditional school and the doom/death school. The other subgenres are then usually derived from those two schools. Shape of Despair is certainly derived from the second school and not the clssical one. Bands like Sunn O now aside, it is questionable if they are real doom anyway.

I don't always catch my typos or awkward grammar, though if you'd like I could stop proofreading altogether. I might not even know what the hell I was going on about then...



Is Incantation death/doom? They contain both doom and death metal elements. Though you are right that the vocals are not the defining factor of death metal, its the riffs. And I agree with your notions. Though you are still missing quite a bit of what death/doom is with only listing the peaceville 3. (The best explanation would be to listen for yourself)

There aren't any different schools of doom. I used to think that before I spent any time listening to trad doom bands. If you remove all the death metal from death/doom you'd arrive at something along the lines of St Vitus and Candlemass. It's the same doom metal. Especially the first Candlemass albums has many riffs that are the exact same style as the doom elements in early death/doom bands.

That is where I believe your are mistaken, there are indeed two schools of doom metal. The traditional form and the second one which you call doom/death, though that is only one aspect of it, perhaps even the largest. I would prefer to call it modern doom, when many doom metal bands started experimenting with influences outside of doom metal.

As for EntilZha's argument, I agree with it that the two schools of doom originate from the same source, but if he would just listen to bands like Sempiternal Deathreign, Zaraza, Uncertainty Principle, and Beyond Belief he would realize why they are not the same. (Outside of the vocals) Or perhaps even try Nightly Gale's "Imprint", it contains vocals which can be likened to traditional doom, but you can't really call it that.

Every metal genre has changed over time. Compare thrash metal from 1992 to thrash metal from 1982. Very different. That does not mean that it suddenly became a new genre.

My point is, death/doom is not a genre. It's a mixture between two genres, like black/death or death/thrash. If you take a death/thrash band from 1992 and remove the death metal it does not mean that what you get isn't thrash metal just because it doesn't sound like thrash from 1982 (doesn't even make any sense), just like it doesn't mean it's not doom metal when you remove the death metal from death/doom, just because it doesn't sound like the first Trouble album.

I wouldn't say death/doom is a mixture the same way black/death or death/thrash are. Or even the same way a band like Incantation is. Death/doom bands typically share much more with the traditional doom bands (Feel and atmosphere especially) then they do with any of the other genres. Though you are right in that every metal genre has changed over time. Compare Trouble's first album to Mirror Of Deception and While Heaven Wept to see how traditional doom has changed. Then compare Ceremonium (Edit: Their first album) and Dusk (US) to My Shameful and Ningizzia to see how doom/death has changed.

You can't say anything other than that death/doom is a mixture between death metal and doom metal. It's in the frickin' name. It's not a matter of opinion and it's not open for debate, it's a fact one has to accept. If it were anything other than a mixture between death metal and doom metal it would not be called "death/doom". That's what it means when two genre names are put together with a slash. Its meaning is inherent to the process of doing so.

Oh, and about Incantation: Just as there is a difference between blackened death metal and black/death metal, there's a difference between death metal with doom influences and death/doom. The difference are based on how much of either parent genre there is in the final result.

One tiny addition, because you seem to be implying that because I named MDB, Paradise Lost and Anathema as examples for death/doom that they are the only bands in that style that I have ever heard of. Right now I'm listening to Symphony of Grief, does that make you happy? Earlier I listened to Sceptical Schizo, that better?

Heavy Metal started out as a development from blues/rock. Does that mean all metal is blues/rock? Thrash metal is one of many genres derived from a fusion of elements of hardcore and metal. Is Thrash metal itself crossover? Does that make Thrash Metal = Blues/Rock/Hardcore Punk?

Now what about sludge metal, which itself is a combination of doom metal and hardcore, that would also be downtempo Blues/Rock/Hardcore Punk, right?

And lets say a tiger fucks a lion. They make liger babies. Lets say a ton of tigers and lions fuck and make a ton of liger babies. Lets say these liger babies grow up and fuck and make more liger babies. After millions of years of fucking and baby making, these ligers speciate into a completely new species, distinct from tigers and lions. Are they still lions+tigers? Or are they an evolution of the hybrid of lions and tigers?

Funeral doom is an evolution of the hybrid of death metal and doom metal. Heavy Metal itself is an evolution of the hybrid of blues and rock. Aside from the earliest forms of metal, metal itself is not blues/rock. The evolved ligers are themselves no longer lions/tigers.

At least, this is my opinion.

Crash (Kor): http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=3302

"Thrash Metal (early), Industrial/Electronic Brutal Thrash Metal (later)"

"Brutal Thrash Metal"? this is quite odd...it should be changed to Groove Metal or Post-Thrash Metal, and the Industrial/Elecronic part is a bit redundant...only Industrial or Electronic IMHO...so it would be "Industrial Groove Metal" or "Industrial-Post Thrash" or something along these lines.

Some songs here: http://www.myspace.com/crashseason songs like "Whirlwind Struggle" and "Psychedelic Storm" are from their most recent album.

Funeral (Nor): http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=3438

http://www.myspace.com/doomfuneral

Funeral Doom/Death/Gothic Metal (early), Melodic Doom/Death Metal (later)

They are not Death/Doom now. Their two most recent albums (From These Wounds and As the Light Does the Shadow) aren't Death/Doom, there are no growls, only male clean vocals are used, so a better genre would be "Gothic/Doom Metal" or "Melodic Doom Metal".

I agree with whoever brought up Shape of Despair. There's not a lot of doom in it, but there's no death metal in it whatsoever. Not a trace in any part of the whole thing. NONE. AT ALL. There's growls, but in that case Killswitch Engage is a death metal band, and so are, I dunno, Cult of Luna. Have you even heard the band, witcher?

The death metal part in the genre tag is stupid. There's a lot of things you could call it, Atmospheric Doom (a stretch), Symphonic Doom (also a stretch, but at least references the keyboard drenched songs).. Or just Funeral Doom. The main point being that having "death" in the genre tag makes as much sense as calling Nile power metal because they use keyboards occaisonally.

They went through a change over time.

Their first album is basically "Arise" worship, then they started adding industrial elements, and then basically went completely industrial groove metal/mallcore.

They have a lot of nu metal and mallcore songs, and if you need proof, I can provide you with it. I'm pretty familiar with the majority of Korean bands.

I have their most recent albums too, I noticed that they are close to industrial/groove metal (and mallcore too)...I was however pointing at the "Brutal Thrash Metal (later)" tag, that refers to their recent material and I think that is quite misleading, it doesn't really exist, groove metal for later Crash is appropriate.

Also searching for "brutal thrash" on the "music genre" field the results are 29 bands, most of them are "Brutal Death/Thrash" and this is ok, but there are 5 band listed only as "Brutal Thrash Metal":

Crash (Kor) and we are talking about them now
Dèchèance: http://metal-archives.com/band.phpid=45469 http://www.myspace.com/decheance just plain Thrash Metal
Insane (Cze): http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=18707 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-_7YTgOqmc a video of their song, just Thrash Metal too (horrible vocals though)
Hellbound (Swe): http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=12508 Didn't find nothing about them except from this review: http://www.cahrecords.com/reviewsfolder ... views.html which says that they play Crust
Tectonic: http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=59306 link for download here: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BDZE5X7X simply old school Thrash.

Abstrakt Algebra - http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=545

"Technical Power Metal"? Really? It's neither technical, nor is it power metal. Sounds like doom/prog.

If that's doom, then so is Korn at their slowest moments. In fact, that sounds like Korn or Pantera or *insert mallcore band here*.

I agree.



I do not agree.

So what? You think funeral doom has doom in it. Opinion voided. If it's somewhat slow and sounds downtuned, it MUST be doom! Oh my, the oppressive atmosphere! Please.

Edit: Earlier, I skimmed through the LP on youtube. Certainly not doom. Groovy gothic metal or something akin.

The thing is, is that "brutal" thrash tends to refer to bands influenced by early Sepultura...and the first Crash record is very much in the Arise vein.
Their second album is very, very similar as well...but with mild industrial overtones. From then on, it gets more and more industrial and less and less thrash. By the end they are industrial/electronic mallcore/Groove metal sort of stuff.

I was actually going to report them earlier, but it slipped my mind.

I do not agree.



I agrh.... well, actually I don't. Or maybe I do.

I don't think brutal thrash metal exists, or at least not to the point where it has become a distinct genre like Brutal Death Metal. But that doesn't mean thrash cannot be brutal, a lot of thrash is brutal, and not just brutal, but FUCKING brutal.

Personally I prefer the "Keep It Simple, Stupid" ideology with genres. Instead of adding tags like "atmospheric melodic symphonic operatic technical progressive brutal raw death/black/doom/thrash drone metal with harsh vocals and jazz influences" keep it succinct. Not saying all "Atmospheric X metal" should be changed, as it is still a legitimate tag, but in cases where it is literally redundant ("brutal thrash" without any sort of brutal death metal influences) and inaccurate, the tags ought to be removed.

I'm not saying that "brutal" is necessary, just saying that's the sentiment I get from it. A lot of bands have that sound, honestly...I can think of a number of them, just in Korea.

But something really should be done about the Crash page.
Early:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6skkkLuibM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYd5ca7L ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SiVrBF_ ... re=related
Mid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJGzOU_Ly3I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C7QuWoe ... re=related (I know it's kinda hard to hear the samples in a live setting, but they are there.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwK-orVo ... re=related (same)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw32zxwb ... re=related (same)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4fH1ol2 ... re=related (same)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk1ftk9a ... re=related
Later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE8y0HSq ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbAxkLcK ... re=related
And then this cover of a pop song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_NSDycN ... re=related

I hope this helps, I know it's a lot of videos...but I wanted to give a good idea of how their sound progressed.

We've had this discussion before; various thergothon samples and all that which basically sound like slowed down Candlemass. Worship which often sounds like.. slowed down Candlemass. Skepticism's Stormcrowfleet, which is also rather doomy. So on and so forth.

However, Shape of Despair don't really have any doom in them, of any sort. They're just slow (and it's not even oppressive). Nonetheless there's enough similarities with 'funeral doom' to give them that tag. "Slow gothic crap metal" would be the most accurate tag, but that probably wouldn't fly. And seriously, why do you persist so much with your trad doom gayness? Yeah it's a cool genre, whatever. No one else except your chilean boyfriend really cares, let along agrees with you...

I think that Thrash/Death Metal for those "more brutal" thrash bands is the most appropriated genre tag, as they, like Crash, are very similar to Arise-era Sepultura. However if the tag "Industrial/Electronic Brutal Thrash Metal" in the Crash page refers to their most recent albums (Terminal Dream Flow and The Massive Crush) it's wrong because they're not thrash (groove maybe) and not even brutal .

However, the other five bands listed as "Brutal Thrash Metal" on MA (5 bands, read one of my earlier posts) need to be changed too as they are not "brutal" in any way, but just simple Thrash Metal (except for Hellbound (Swe) they could be Crust according to the only review that talks about them).

Crash was never death metal at all.

No, no, no, no...the electronic influences were already present in even the second album by Crash. But, yes, you are correct about the last two albums.

@ the Crash discussion and industrial/electronic redundancy.

I don't know how they sound, but industrial is not synonymous with electronic. Since industrial is an experimental music sub-genre, not an electronic music sub-genre. Take early Laibach for example, industrial, but no electronic elements. Though early industrial did lead the way for electronic music.

Umm...Crash started off as Thrash, then added in Industrial elements, and later they added in electronic and techno elements.

If you didn't bother to listen, then why bother contributing?

A lot of industrial metal bands here are listed as "Industrial/Electronic Metal" e.g later ...And Oceans, Crash themselves, Dimension F3H, Pain, The Kovenant, later Samael, Red Harvest. I think that in those cases "Industrial/Electronic" are meant to point at the same thing, since I never heard of the genre "electronic metal" but only of "industrial metal", so I suppose that the two tags are more or less synonymous.

@The Grim Wombat: so in the genre field the Crash genre shift on the last two albums should be listed, it would be something like this "Thrash Metal (early), Industrial/Thrash Metal (mid), Industrial/Groove/Mallcore (later)" and the "Brutal" tag should be also removed, since the "Brutal Thrash Metal" genre itself doesn't really exist and also means nothing...Same for the 5 bands under the "Brutal Thrash" tag on MA, since they are all normal Thrash Metal (but maybe one is Crust, as I said before)

I am not all that familiar with most of those bands, but you do bring up an interesting point. Most industrial metal bands (That I know) also contain electronic elements. Off the top of my head, Black Swords and Woods Of Belial (The archives only list industrial, not electronic too) don't have any electronic elements.

As for industrial itself, early Laibach like I mentioned is a good example of industrial without any electronic influences. And Mentallo & The Fixer would demonstrate industrial/electronic music.

Edit: Examples, since youtube seems to be working again:

Woods Of Belial - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttOLylj2 ... re=related

Laibach - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSzqNzfCgyo
Mentallo & the Fixer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Rh0bE3-2s

As for black swords, their songs where on their website, but that died last I checked. So if anyone wants to hear them, just ask and I will put them up on megaupload or something.