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Pessipath
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:00 pm
Posts: 100
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:09 pm 
 

Yeah so I'd have to suggest a change for the Cali band Xibalba: https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Xibalba/3540391580
Early on they were playing sludgy 90s style metalcore (First LP) similar to Disembodied and gradually shifted to death metal (Tierra Y Libertad), Hasta La Muerte was like sort of their transitional record, there was death metal, sludge and metalcore all mixed about on that one.
"Death metal/hardcore" ain't accurate and they have never played hardcore punk (this goes back to what I said about this site commonly misusing hardcore).
Any reputable source on hardcore will tell you it's an abrasive punk offshoot. Those tough guy groove metalcore bands like Hatebreed ain't HC.

Link to their first LP: https://xibalbasl.bandcamp.com/album/ma ... r-las-dias (Sludgy metalcore/deathcore pretty much)
Second LP: https://xibalbasl.bandcamp.com/album/hasta-la-muerte (Lots of Crowbarring and Morbid Angeling lol)
Third LP: https://xibalbasl.bandcamp.com/album/tierra-y-libertad (This is where the Bolt Thrower, Morbid Angel and Suffocation influence became very apparent)

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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9248
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:57 am 
 

Man the only person commonly misusing hardcore here is you. At least once a year you pop up to make the exact same argument and every single time you get the same answer, I really don't know why you keep doing this other than thinking you're gonna catch us off guard or something?

I'll tell you the same thing I always tell you: Hardcore as a term has evolved over the years, and a general "hardcore" denotes something different from "hardcore punk" (which still totally exists so I don't know why you insist on creating confusion) nowadays. Back in the early 80s, Black Flag, Bad Brains, Minor Threat and the like were just called hardcore because there was no need to differentiate it from the style that would later emerge a decade later with Madball, Subzero, etc. and then further codify with Hatebreed and their millions of clones. It's really no different from Iron Maiden and Burzum both being metal bands despite sounding nothing alike. Yeah, I get that it's kinda weird that the older style got stuck with an extra modifier and it's kind of like if black metal was just called "metal" and trad metal continued to be called "traditional metal" but hey, that's how language works sometimes, I didn't invent it. Take it up with the hardcore community.

Xibalba very clearly falls into the newer meaning of the term (further evolving into "beatdown hardcore" if you want to get more precise but I have a sneaking hunch that you don't). "Death Metal/Hardcore" is 100% the best way to tag them on this site and I really don't know how I can make this any clearer. Just... get with the times I guess?
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Pessipath
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:00 pm
Posts: 100
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:16 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Man the only person commonly misusing hardcore here is you. At least once a year you pop up to make the exact same argument and every single time you get the same answer, I really don't know why you keep doing this other than thinking you're gonna catch us off guard or something?

I'll tell you the same thing I always tell you: Hardcore as a term has evolved over the years, and a general "hardcore" denotes something different from "hardcore punk" (which still totally exists so I don't know why you insist on creating confusion) nowadays. Back in the early 80s, Black Flag, Bad Brains, Minor Threat and the like were just called hardcore because there was no need to differentiate it from the style that would later emerge a decade later with Madball, Subzero, etc. and then further codify with Hatebreed and their millions of clones. It's really no different from Iron Maiden and Burzum both being metal bands despite sounding nothing alike. Yeah, I get that it's kinda weird that the older style got stuck with an extra modifier and it's kind of like if black metal was just called "metal" and trad metal continued to be called "traditional metal" but hey, that's how language works sometimes, I didn't invent it. Take it up with the hardcore community.

Xibalba very clearly falls into the newer meaning of the term (further evolving into "beatdown hardcore" if you want to get more precise but I have a sneaking hunch that you don't). "Death Metal/Hardcore" is 100% the best way to tag them on this site and I really don't know how I can make this any clearer. Just... get with the times I guess?


Oh it's you again
No you have no idea what you're talking about just like you did years ago.
Hardcore means hardcore punk and that's a FACT. It didn't "evolve", it got widely misused. Just like metalcore and screamo.
https://www.allmusic.com/style/hardcore ... 0000002641
https://www.thoughtco.com/hardcore-punk-music-2803394
https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Hardcore+Punk/

"Back in the early 80s, Black Flag, Bad Brains, Minor Threat and the like were just called hardcore because there was no need to differentiate it from the style that would later emerge a decade later with Madball, Subzero, etc."
1. Madball isn't purely hardcore since they play metallic hardcore, metalcore and crossover. There was no "genre that emerged" at the time, it was simply hardcore and metal bands taking influences from each other.
2. A lot of NYHC was literally metalcore/crossover to begin and not hardcore. There is a big difference between hardcore punk acts like Shelter or Warzone and groovy thrashy metalcore and crossover bands like Dmize, All Out War or Earth Crisis

"Xibalba very clearly falls into the newer meaning of the term (further evolving into "beatdown hardcore" if you want to get more precise but I have a sneaking hunch that you don't). "Death Metal/Hardcore" is 100% the best way to tag them on this site and I really don't know how I can make this any clearer. Just... get with the times I guess?"

Xibalba has absolutely NOTHING to do with beatdown hardcore. Beatdown hardcore is a type of groovy metallic hardcore punk with a "tough guy" demeanor. Bands like Bulldoze, Everybody Gets Hurt or Knuckledust are BDHC. There is absolutely none of that in Xibalba, Xibalba isn't even influenced by that shit.
Read up on this list a buddy of mine on RYM made, he breaks it down perfectly: https://rateyourmusic.com/list/Goregaze ... -hardcore/

Seriously quit talking about music you know nothing about or even like to begin with.

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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9248
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:39 am 
 

There's a Mitch Hedberg bit about how he doesn't like playing tennis because no matter how good he gets, he'll never be better than a wall. I feel that joke in my soul sometimes.

Pessipath wrote:
1. Madball isn't purely hardcore since they play metallic hardcore, metalcore and crossover. There was no "genre that emerged" at the time, it was simply hardcore and metal bands taking influences from each other.
2. A lot of NYHC was literally metalcore/crossover to begin and not hardcore. There is a big difference between hardcore punk acts like Shelter or Warzone and groovy thrashy metalcore and crossover bands like Dmize, All Out War or Earth Crisis


Man you are so close to getting it. Obviously you understand that all of these bands are very different from one another and that influences span from all over the place but that last synapse that would lead you to understanding "hardcore is a diverse genre" just won't fire. I don't know what to tell you, we're just not on the same page and it looks like we never will be.
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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 5711
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:58 am 
 

I literally clicked on the first song in the first link that was posted for this band and it's straight up hardcore. Stop. Hardcore is staying.
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Pessipath
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:00 pm
Posts: 100
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:38 am 
 

Erosion of Humanity wrote:
I literally clicked on the first song in the first link that was posted for this band and it's straight up hardcore. Stop. Hardcore is staying.


"Straight up hardcore"
So you've never listened to hardcore then, that's all you've shown.
This is what straight up HC sounds like, absolutely no similarity to Xibalba. Hardcore does not consist of sludge/groove riffs, death growls and chuggy breakdowns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRN9erEh8CM&t=71s

BastardHead wrote:
There's a Mitch Hedberg bit about how he doesn't like playing tennis because no matter how good he gets, he'll never be better than a wall. I feel that joke in my soul sometimes.

Pessipath wrote:
1. Madball isn't purely hardcore since they play metallic hardcore, metalcore and crossover. There was no "genre that emerged" at the time, it was simply hardcore and metal bands taking influences from each other.
2. A lot of NYHC was literally metalcore/crossover to begin and not hardcore. There is a big difference between hardcore punk acts like Shelter or Warzone and groovy thrashy metalcore and crossover bands like Dmize, All Out War or Earth Crisis


Man you are so close to getting it. Obviously you understand that all of these bands are very different from one another and that influences span from all over the place but that last synapse that would lead you to understanding "hardcore is a diverse genre" just won't fire. I don't know what to tell you, we're just not on the same page and it looks like we never will be.


Naw dude I do get it, hardcore is very much diverse. The issue is you have the wrong idea in how it's diverse.
HC has many forms, there's crust, metallic HC, powerviolence, melodic hardcore etc. Those are the more straight up HC derivatives that aren't direct fusions with another style (in this case the style in question being extreme metal).
But then you have those fusion styles like metalcore or grind which apply to both hardcore AND metal.
This site doesn't use "hardcore" as an umbrella term that encompasses the metal aspect of it, it's using it as a blanket term without actually understanding what it means or how it works.
Not only that but you're associating the label with bands whose instrumentation is predominantly METAL. Like Xibalba. They're not hardcore and never were. Simply influenced by it and have involvement in the HC scene which doesn't mean much since Crowbar and Killswitch Engage do to (both played This Is Hardcore fest even.)

I'd like for us to see eye-to-eye because honestly getting into this same argument not just with people on MA but on Facebook, YouTube you name it gets old and I try to avoid coming off as some shitbag about it but it's hard when that attitude is so common around here.

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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 5711
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:11 am 
 

Pessipath wrote:
I'd like for us to see eye-to-eye because honestly getting into this same argument not just with people on MA but on Facebook, YouTube you name it gets old and I try to avoid coming off as some shitbag about it but it's hard when that attitude is so common around here.


The commonest denominator here being you. Yet of course, everyone else is wrong? Look, you've been told no by many of us now, three this morning. One last time, drop it. We are not going to change it.
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MutantClannfear
Blank Czech

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 3317
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:13 am 
 

Pessipath wrote:
Not only that but you're associating the label with bands whose instrumentation is predominantly METAL. Like Xibalba.

Did you consider for a moment that that may be because we are currently on the Metal Archives? As in, any band that uses that tag is going to sound "predominantly metal"? We don't document fully punk/hardcore bands, we document metal bands that may also have some punk influences.
Pessipath wrote:
They're not hardcore and never were. Simply influenced by it

Yeah, so influences -> it's listed on their page. Again, they wouldn't be on the website if they weren't predominantly metal.

The fact of the matter is, the classification of any genre is, to some degree, a mix of stylistic heritage and public acceptance. People mix and match however much of each of those factors that they want to incorporate. For example, some people see nu-metal as metal because it incorporates the term, we here don't. Some people don't see any grindcore or goregrind, regardless of its degree of metal influence, as being metal; we here do. This line is hazy and has to be drawn for each person at some point for every genre that ever existed.

If your line for hardcore starts and ends dead stop at Minor Threat and doesn't even reach Madball, that's fine, go for it in your own personal taxonomy. But as a public database and source of knowledge, we have to strike a balance and use terms that are simultaneously accurate to the genre's lineage while being faithful to how the term is used de facto. You're the only person not calling Xibalba hardcore. Can you imagine how confused everyone else here would be if we removed that from their genre, and then we said, "Oh, we know these guys are embedded in a musical genre that's been called 'hardcore' for a couple decades now, but some random user named Pessipath came along and made a brilliant argument (the same one he apparently makes all over the web) that there is absolutely no line of evolution linking Black Flag and Xibalba, so we eliminated the term across the site"? That wouldn't be making the database more accurate - it would make it harder to find bands with the terms people actually call them. The balance of "common usage" vs. "genre heritage" would be completely disrupted, ergo hardcore would be useless as an actual term to describe things on the website.

And all of this confusion and ambiguity to what end? So that it can match the exact definition of the term individually defined by just one dude: you. The Metal Archives has had a team of some 50+ moderators over the years who all talk and discuss and jointly come to a series of compromises on what falls in and outside the limits of the term "metal". But you? You're just one guy. So, no. We're not going to change all the bands that say "hardcore" to some other tag based on one person whose opinion, he seems to openly acknowledge, is an outlier. You're not going to make any ground on this topic; in fact, you're making less ground every time you periodically bring it up again, and even less every time you respond by telling anybody who will engage you that they're completely wrong based on your own microcosmic definition. We are not changing our stance on this.

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joecubbie
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:03 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:14 pm 
 

I think The Night Flight Orchestra's genre should be changed to melodic hard rock, AOR, or perhaps both (Melodic Hard Rock/AOR). While hard rock is the parent genre of these styles, when I think of pure hard rock, I think of bands like Aerosmith, Whitesnake, and AC/DC. NFO's sound seems too melodic and polished to be simply labeled hard rock. Here is their latest album for consideration...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=O ... UQUrEeCKRs

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ᴎostalgiʞK
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:27 pm
Posts: 182
Location: Argentina, Brazil
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:45 pm 
 

May I suggest Prototype as Progressive Thrash Metal

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Prototype/447

Phalloplasty as Slam/Brutal Death Metal

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ph ... 3540314491

Hypothermia as Depressive Black Metal (early)

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Hypothermia/19074

That's all for now :PP
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~Guest 566514
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:26 pm
Posts: 13
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:07 pm 
 

Flesh:

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Flesh/3540439810

This band should be classified as Slam/Brutal Death Metal. Nothing but incomprehensible slamming from start to finish.

Target:

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Target/64509

Not sure how to classify this one but it'd be somewhere between progressive death metal and progressive sludge metal. I suggest the mods give this band a listen before making a genre-based decision. But technical death metal this ain't.

(EDIT)

Henker:

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Henker/41738

The genre tag 'Technical Death Metal' is insufficient. This is clearly 'Technical Brutal Death Metal.' In the second half of the album, there's a lot of djent passages as well, so I wonder if it'd be fair to label it 'Technical Brutal Death Metal/Djent.'

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krust_Korg_55
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:07 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Venezuela
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 4:12 pm 
 

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/An ... 3540436439

I suggest you remove the ''Blackened'' to Angel Splitter

His music is entirely Slam, like any band of this genre. The element of the Blackened is almost totally null (especially its first album). Although in its EP of 2018 there are very few Blackened moments, which even sounds almost like Deathcore, but they are not enough for the band to be considered Blackened as such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5L86NeohAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHTFgUIElVE

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 8:31 am 
 

Why are some pop metal bands labelled as gothic metal? For example the bands UnSun and Mortal Love. What makes these bands gothic? UnSun should be labelled as symphonic metal, although they are more like alternative rock than metal. Mortal Love has some thrashy meal riffs sometimes, but most of the time they play pop rock with heavy guitars. What exactly makes them gothic?

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Midnight Rider
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:07 pm
Posts: 400
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 4:52 am 
 

Diplomate wrote:
Why are some pop metal bands labelled as gothic metal? For example the bands UnSun and Mortal Love. What makes these bands gothic? UnSun should be labelled as symphonic metal, although they are more like alternative rock than metal. Mortal Love has some thrashy meal riffs sometimes, but most of the time they play pop rock with heavy guitars. What exactly makes them gothic?

UnSun was rejudged. Their genre was changed to "Gothic Metal/Alternative Rock".
A note was added: "Accepted based on Clinic for Dolls."

Mortal Love:

Their heaviest album (All the Beauty...) is consistently metal enough, so they will stay on the site.
Still, almost half of their stuff is Gothic Rock so that will be included on their genre.

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm 
 

Midnight Rider wrote:
UnSun was rejudged. Their genre was changed to "Gothic Metal/Alternative Rock".
A note was added: "Accepted based on Clinic for Dolls."

Mortal Love:

Their heaviest album (All the Beauty...) is consistently metal enough, so they will stay on the site.
Still, almost half of their stuff is Gothic Rock so that will be included on their genre.

This definition makes much more sense, although I don't really think Mortal Love could be called gothic rock, unless you count Evanescence or HIM as gothic rock. However, since other similar bands are also labelled as gothic metal/rock, I won't complain.

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Jophelerx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:22 pm
Posts: 1284
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:34 am 
 

Not that big a deal, but Attakk definitely sounds more USPM than heavy metal to me. Sounds pretty similar to early Queensryche or Crimson Glory, albeit more muscular. Might even be worth sticking a "progressive" label in front, but that's more of a judgment call as they're hardly overtly progressive. Link to the full demo here:

Youtube: show
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GuardAwakening
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:35 pm
Posts: 238
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:03 pm 
 

I propose Timeghoul's genre be changed from "death metal" to "progressive death metal"
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Timeghoul/7287

The band has the following:
1) very long tracks (almost always past 6 minutes)
2) ...and within those long songs contains varying riffs and prog chord progressions reminiscent of bands that would show up years later such as Opeth and Cynic
3) has that growl / clean vocal sort of alternation that all other prog death bands do as well

i just think "death metal" by itself doesn't describe this band enough, their music feels very progressive.

All the music they ever released can be heard here:
Youtube: show

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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 699
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 9:28 pm 
 

Jophelerx wrote:
Not that big a deal, but Attakk definitely sounds more USPM than heavy metal to me. Sounds pretty similar to early Queensryche or Crimson Glory, albeit more muscular. Might even be worth sticking a "progressive" label in front, but that's more of a judgment call as they're hardly overtly progressive. Link to the full demo here:

Youtube: show

Changed to "Power/Heavy Metal".

GuardAwakening wrote:
I propose Timeghoul's genre be changed from "death metal" to "progressive death metal"
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Timeghoul/7287

The band has the following:
1) very long tracks (almost always past 6 minutes)
2) ...and within those long songs contains varying riffs and prog chord progressions reminiscent of bands that would show up years later such as Opeth and Cynic
3) has that growl / clean vocal sort of alternation that all other prog death bands do as well

i just think "death metal" by itself doesn't describe this band enough, their music feels very progressive.

All the music they ever released can be heard here:
Youtube: show

You could have flagged another report on it and I wouldn't have minded btw (though I likely would have recommended posting here, since they're a rather important band), charlie0x0 really shouldn't have told you what to do even if he meant well. :wink: That being said, I'm not too familiar with Timeghoul, so I'll leave this up to someone else.

Also, 666 posts!
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MutantClannfear
Blank Czech

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 3317
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 1:40 am 
 

Re: Timeghoul, we talked about it and are thinking we'll keep the band listed as just “death metal”. They do have some prog tendencies with things like off-kilter dual guitar harmonizing and odd vocal arrangements, but other progressive elements like varying time signatures, song structure, sense of melody etc. seem to me to be mostly missing from their music. Furthermore, in their official discography of six songs, the proggy elements are really only overt in the two from Panoramic Twilight; in addition, they don’t really sound much like progressive DM bands at the time like Atheist, nor do they resemble modern prog-death like Augury et al. Finally, it’s complicated by the fact that they also have death/doom elements which are present but perhaps not enough to actively note, leading us to favor a more general, summarizing genre. In short, looking at their output as a whole, we think it would be more misleading to group them in with established “progressive death metal” bands by labeling them as such, which comes with a pretty specific set of connotations, than it is to describe them as “death metal” and overlook some of the peculiarities of their sound. Those curious about the unique parts of Timeghoul’s style can read reviews or listen to the band themselves.

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GuardAwakening
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:35 pm
Posts: 238
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:41 pm 
 

Storm of the Light's Bane wrote:
GuardAwakening wrote:
I propose Timeghoul's genre be changed from "death metal" to "progressive death metal"
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Timeghoul/7287

The band has the following:
1) very long tracks (almost always past 6 minutes)
2) ...and within those long songs contains varying riffs and prog chord progressions reminiscent of bands that would show up years later such as Opeth and Cynic
3) has that growl / clean vocal sort of alternation that all other prog death bands do as well

i just think "death metal" by itself doesn't describe this band enough, their music feels very progressive.

All the music they ever released can be heard here:
Youtube: show

You could have flagged another report on it and I wouldn't have minded btw (though I likely would have recommended posting here, since they're a rather important band), charlie0x0 really shouldn't have told you what to do even if he meant well. :wink: That being said, I'm not too familiar with Timeghoul, so I'll leave this up to someone else.

Also, 666 posts!



i didnt notice a non-mod told me to do that until later. well if you didn't mind, i figured you would have just went off on that report then and there and changed it right when you saw it the first time.
but yeah i really do think adding "progressive" is pretty necessary for their genre.

congrats on your 666th post, you have pleased the number of the beast

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Midnight Rider
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:07 pm
Posts: 400
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 5:13 pm 
 

GuardAwakening wrote:
I propose Timeghoul's genre be changed from "death metal" to "progressive death metal"
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Timeghoul/7287

I'll take care of this on the report queue.

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OpsiusCato
Mexican Metal Inquisition

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 2815
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:30 pm 
 

Midnight Rider wrote:
GuardAwakening wrote:
I propose Timeghoul's genre be changed from "death metal" to "progressive death metal"
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Timeghoul/7287

I'll take care of this on the report queue.

No need to. It has already been discussed in the modchat, MR
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Midnight Rider
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:07 pm
Posts: 400
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 3:11 pm 
 

OpsiusCato wrote:
Midnight Rider wrote:
GuardAwakening wrote:
I propose Timeghoul's genre be changed from "death metal" to "progressive death metal"
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Timeghoul/7287

I'll take care of this on the report queue.

No need to. It has already been discussed in the modchat, MR

Fine, I didn't notice it.

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ThStealthP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 12:58 am 
 

Slam/brutal death metal/deathcore:
https://architectofdissonanceofficial.bandcamp.com/

Just deathcore, not really brutal death:
https://burythememories.bandcamp.com/

Melodic death metal (early), ? (later):
https://selfinflikted.bandcamp.com/

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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 170
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 1:23 am 
 

With the recent Goregang (https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Go ... 3540447762) review, I checked out the band's full-length and I think there's reason to tag it as "Death Metal/Hardcore" (or perhaps "Death metal/Crust". The album has literally zero solos, extremely short songs by regular DM standards, and constantly is in mid-paced hardcore groovin' mode than straight-up death metal. Plus the vocals are more rooted in hardcore (barks/shouts and gang vocals galore) than death metal and there's even a few hardcore breakdowns. The hardcore influences are EXTREMELY strong in this album. I can understand keeping it just "Death Metal" though, I'm not the best judge of these things. I just know it feels very distinct from what traditional Death Metal I've listened to.

https://goregangband.bandcamp.com/album ... etal-crust

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Bonziepsycho
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 98
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:13 pm 
 

Bonziepsycho wrote:
Knuckle Dragger's genre is fine, except I think Hardcore should be added to the tag; their three releases prior to the new ep were very hardcore, and less so death metal. So "Powerviolence/Grindcore/Hardcore/Death Metal."
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Kn ... 3540450521
https://knuckledraggertn.bandcamp.com/ (4-Way Split, Pinion / Knuckle Dragger, self titled)

Also, I don't think Enfold Darkness is "black" at all. They sound like Technical/Melodic Death Metal. I mean, their similar artists tab literally has TBDM, Inferi, Skeletonwitch, and Fallujah as their top four (all over 15 votes)
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/En ... ness/84957
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 0DD3C00CC8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIjIOr-oDbU


I'm glad to see some notorious bands become accepted recently, but I feel that a few need a slight change to their genre.

Agoraphobic Nosebleed's genre is fine except Cybergrind needs to be added to the Grindcore tag (Cybergrind/Grindcore, Sludge/Doom Metal). They play more straightforward grind on Honky Reduction and Agorapocalypse, but are far more on the electronic cyber side of grind on Frozen Corpse Stuffed With Dope and--especially--Altered States of America.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ag ... 3540453905
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2eIf6fxs-I
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3qBpKgHjJ4
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m_IYjBhlbU
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J2UrXH5tds

Full of Hell's genre makes sense, somewhat, but they definitely play powerviolence and noise on their newest album. Might it just be better to condense the genre to Powerviolence/Grindcore/Noise/Death Metal and write in the notes that they shifted to a more deathgrind sound on their last two albums?
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Fu ... 3540438869
* https://fullofhell.bandcamp.com/album/weeping-choir (noise and powerviolence)
* https://fullofhell.bandcamp.com/album/t ... ng-ecstasy (no noise, but powerviolence)
* https://fullofhell.bandcamp.com/album/a ... eavy-light (I know this was a one off collaboration, but it is definitely "noise" and "powerviolence" to describe the later genre)
* https://neurotrecordings.bandcamp.com/a ... ike-i-ache (Another one off collaboration that fits the noise and powerviolence in the later style)

I discovered Gutalax who needs a slight change to their genre: Goregrind/Grind 'n' Roll.
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Gutalax/3540310608
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PO6HZKU-IM
* https://gutalax2.bandcamp.com/

I've also seen that Slam has been added as a genre, and here are two band's I've added that fit this tag:
* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ma ... 3540408586
* https://mancubus1.bandcamp.com/album/yo ... el-ep-2015

* https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Re ... 3540407912
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgcVYunQed8 (sorry, I could only find a live video)
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0bdTK24pQ
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xlu4gBYeYE
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Last edited by Bonziepsycho on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:44 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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OpsiusCato
Mexican Metal Inquisition

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 2815
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:17 pm 
 

About pornogrind; no, we don't classify musical genres by lyrical themes. That's why Mercyful Fate isn't Black Metal, Immortal isn't Ice Metal, Blind Guardian isn't Hobbit Metal and Summoning isn't Nazgul Metal.
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Uncolored, on being a law-abiding citizen wrote:
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Metal Asylum
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 3:56 pm
Posts: 60
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:18 pm 
 

Ancient:

Should just narrow it down to Black Metal. If an additional tag is needed, you should probably go with Atmospheric- definitely not Melodic. Violins and Female Vocals are scarce and generally build towards a specific gloomy atmosphere, instead of being melody-driven, plus the Vocals themselves are old-school Norwegian Black Metal style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3pNZtC_h28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehS4lR6ZO5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8CLgNbS9kw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az_izQxE10w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RhI43gzvGU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBTu_zsDHII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja3ff1K8zyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFASGQrpO8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzETRHzD9wo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ1fcv_vXhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6YSpzt7Qig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMMc47l6m7w

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Bonziepsycho
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 98
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:22 pm 
 

OpsiusCato wrote:
About pornogrind; no, we don't classify musical genres by lyrical themes. That's why Mercyful Fate isn't Black Metal, Immortal isn't Ice Metal, Blind Guardian isn't Hobbit Metal and Summoning isn't Nazgul Metal.


I understand; I was just trying to make a case that Pornogrind is defined by more than just the lyrics. Like I said, I feel it is a groovy/beatdown-like subgenre of goregrind. And, while being a pretty small genre, I think CBT is the first band on here that play this style, and is stylistically different from other porn themed goregrind bands.
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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:25 pm 
 

OpsiusCato wrote:
About pornogrind; no, we don't classify musical genres by lyrical themes. That's why Mercyful Fate isn't Black Metal, Immortal isn't Ice Metal, Blind Guardian isn't Hobbit Metal and Summoning isn't Nazgul Metal.

Well, gothic metal is still on this site. Most bands labelled as gothic metal are unitied only by their lyrical themes. Pornogrind seems like a legit genre to me, it's a little bit different from goregrind.

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OpsiusCato
Mexican Metal Inquisition

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 2815
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:03 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
OpsiusCato wrote:
About pornogrind; no, we don't classify musical genres by lyrical themes. That's why Mercyful Fate isn't Black Metal, Immortal isn't Ice Metal, Blind Guardian isn't Hobbit Metal and Summoning isn't Nazgul Metal.

Well, gothic metal is still on this site. Most bands labelled as gothic metal are unitied only by their lyrical themes. Pornogrind seems like a legit genre to me, it's a little bit different from goregrind.

Gothic Metal is a very specific genre. Dunno where "bands labelled as gothic metal are unitied only by their lyrical themes", but it's certainly not the case in here.

Wearing corsets =/= Gothic Metal
Singing about vampires =/= Gothic Metal
Playing cellos =/= Gothic Metal

Mixing Goth Rock + Metal = Gothic Metal

Easy peasy, kiddo.
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Uncolored, on being a law-abiding citizen wrote:
I'm going to an illegal AnarchoPunkfest in an abandoned disco near a beach. If I'm not here tomorrow look for me in jail.
PhiloFrog, making accurate statements as usual, wrote:
Opsius is Metal as fuck.

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:55 am 
 

OpsiusCato wrote:
Gothic Metal is a very specific genre. Dunno where "bands labelled as gothic metal are unitied only by their lyrical themes", but it's certainly not the case in here.

Wearing corsets =/= Gothic Metal
Singing about vampires =/= Gothic Metal
Playing cellos =/= Gothic Metal

Mixing Goth Rock + Metal = Gothic Metal

Easy peasy, kiddo.

I've been advocating a reevaluation of gothic metal genre for some time, and finally I managed to get an attention of a moderator.
Only a small fraction of bands labelled as gothic metal actually have something to do with gothic rock. The vast majority of them don't have gothic rock characteristics.
There are 3 groups of bands currently labelled as gothic metal on the archives:
1) Metal bands that actually have gothic rock influence. (Paradise Lost, Theatre of Tragedy on Aegis, later Tristania, Sirenia)
2) Death-doom bands with romantic/medieval/"gothic" imagery and atmosphere that have little to no gothic rock influence. (My Dying Bride, The Sins of Thy Beloved, Draconian. Honestly, most Theatre of Tragedy and Tristania material also falls under this category.)
3) Poppy bands that are kinda metal, but still kinda Evanescence sound-alikes. Despite having nothing to do with gothic rock, they are still labelled as gothic metal or sometimes as gothic metal/rock. Apparently, some people here think that Evanescence and HIM are not alternative rock, but gothic rock. (Mortal Love, UnSun)

Now that I received a confirmation that gothic metal indeed means metal + gothic rock, I assume I can now report bands without gothic rock influence as incorrectly tagged, right?

As for pornogrind, the differences with goregrind are minor, so I can't argue here.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9806
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:44 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
I've been advocating a reevaluation of gothic metal genre for some time, and finally I managed to get an attention of a moderator.
Only a small fraction of bands labelled as gothic metal actually have something to do with gothic rock. The vast majority of them don't have gothic rock characteristics.
There are 3 groups of bands currently labelled as gothic metal on the archives:
1) Metal bands that actually have gothic rock influence. (Paradise Lost, Theatre of Tragedy on Aegis, later Tristania, Sirenia)
2) Death-doom bands with romantic/medieval/"gothic" imagery and atmosphere that have little to no gothic rock influence. (My Dying Bride, The Sins of Thy Beloved, Draconian. Honestly, most Theatre of Tragedy and Tristania material also falls under this category.)
3) Poppy bands that are kinda metal, but still kinda Evanescence sound-alikes. Despite having nothing to do with gothic rock, they are still labelled as gothic metal or sometimes as gothic metal/rock. Apparently, some people here think that Evanescence and HIM are not alternative rock, but gothic rock. (Mortal Love, UnSun)

Now that I received a confirmation that gothic metal indeed means metal + gothic rock, I assume I can now report bands without gothic rock influence as incorrectly tagged, right?

You can definitely report those in the #3 category (provide samples and suggestion of a new genre tag).
For #2, it's trickier, because some of those still do have some goth influence but mix it up with other styles, but since they are influential in their own right, they tend to mislead people into thinking "this is what gothic metal is". So I wouldn't necessarily report all of those to change the style, unless it's really blatantly wrong.

As someone who hates this "symphonic metal with violins and female vocals = gothic metal" nonsense, though, I'm with you for the most part. So Opsius was right in a sense, but I would disagree that it's "easy peasy" because, well, genres are fluid and complicated and not all bands are so clear-cut.
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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:58 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
You can definitely report those in the #3 category (provide samples and suggestion of a new genre tag).
For #2, it's trickier, because some of those still do have some goth influence but mix it up with other styles, but since they are influential in their own right, they tend to mislead people into thinking "this is what gothic metal is". So I wouldn't necessarily report all of those to change the style, unless it's really blatantly wrong.

As someone who hates this "symphonic metal with violins and female vocals = gothic metal" nonsense, though, I'm with you for the most part. So Opsius was right in a sense, but I would disagree that it's "easy peasy" because, well, genres are fluid and complicated and not all bands are so clear-cut.

Thank you for your response, I want to discuss the second category a bit further since it brings a lot of confusion.

I'll start with Tristania, because they are my favourite band and I'm 99% sure when I talk about them, since I listened to their albums dozens of times and analyzed their riffs. Their first album only has one gothic metal song (Angellore), while the others are doom metal with some black metal tremolo picking. There are some minor gothic rock moments, but this is a predominantly doom metal album. The second one is mostly death-doom, however, gothic rock traits are more prominent and featured in multiple songs, there's even a Sisters of Mercy riff in Lethean River. The third album is still death-doom, but gothic rock is even more prominent. On Ashes they dropped almost all symphonic aspects, but the sound is still evenly split between death/doom and gothic metal/rock. Illuminations and Darkest White also combine these genres, albeit in different proportions, while Rubicon is a nu-metal experiment that shouldn't be taken into consideration.
So, their genre can be summarized as "Symphonic gothic/death/doom metal (early), gothic/death/doom metal (later)". If you think it's too long, then they can just be called "Symphonic/gothic/death/doom metal", since they didn't abandon symphonic features completely. They are still definitely not just gothic metal.

At the same time, a lot of famous bands in this category don't really have much to do with gothic metal. If we take Draconian, for example, who are labelled as gothic/death/doom metal, I have carefully listened to their first 3 albums and partly the others, and I simply don't hear gothic rock in their sound. There is only one song of them (listen from 3:07) that has a guitar playing something similar to a gothic rock riff. In this song you can sometimes hear a clean guitar in the background that sounds a little bit like a gothic rock one, but that's all. I haven't heard any single other gothic rock moment from them. I strongly suspect they are one of those bands that got gothic metal tag only because of having beauty and the beast vocals and some atmospheric "gothic" moments, which are already abundant in doom metal. I don't really view them as a gothic metal band, they are a good example of a death-doom band that sometimes creates a gothic atmosphere. Am I missing something?

Now, this will be pretty blasphemous, but I don't see why My Dying Bride is viewed as a seminal gothic metal band. They don't seem to cite gothic rock bands as their influence. Dead Can Dance's neoclassical stuff is an obvious inspiration for them, and they admitted that, but it's not gothic rock. I'll be honest, I haven't listened to their entire discography, but I don't hear any gothic rock at all, their clean guitars don't sound like gothic rock ones. Maybe I am missing something again, but I simply don't hear it.
To reflect My Dying Bride's loss of death edge on some albums, we can call their genre "death/doom metal, doom metal".

Another band that in my opinion doesn't deserve the gothic tag is The Sins of Thy Beloved. The only gothic rock riff in the first album is in the song All Alone at 4:57, but does this really justify their genre? Listen for yourself, if you remove all symphonic elements, you will have a doom metal album. The second and last album is a little bit different, it's a little bit faster, but still predominantly doom metal, perhaps with some black metal influences (mostly in keyboards). However, here they have a song called Forever, which sounds influenced by gothic rock. Is it enough to justify the gothic tag? In my opinion one gothic metal song is not enough, so I would just call them symphonic doom metal, but it's up to you.
I forgot to mention about this song on their first album, would you say it's gothic rock influenced? In my opinion, it's just a doom metal ballad with a little bit of gothic rock sounding guitars in the background.
Also, in general, if the guitars sound like this at 4:40, do you consider it a gothic metal feature?


Last edited by Diplomate on Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9110
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:22 pm 
 

Gothic rock is a diverse genre and it's more than just Fields of the Nephilim/Sisters of Mercy, OpsiusCato is 100% correct in what he said. Tristania/Theatre of Tragedy/Trail of Tears etc just follow a different type of gothic rock. They're more like Lacrimosa with metal than Fields of the Nephilim with metal. Don't make arguments on gothic metal based on lack of knowledge of gothic rock please. I don't want to mini mod, I just know the mods here are mods because they're metal fans, not because they're gothic rock fans, but anyone who's a gothic rock fan can tell you it's a diverse genre and just because something doesn't sound like Sisters of Mercy it doesn't mean it isn't based on gothic rock.
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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:08 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Gothic rock is a diverse genre and it's more than just Fields of the Nephilim/Sisters of Mercy, OpsiusCato is 100% correct in what he said. Tristania/Theatre of Tragedy/Trail of Tears etc just follow a different type of gothic rock. They're more like Lacrimosa with metal than Fields of the Nephilim with metal. Don't make arguments on gothic metal based on lack of knowledge of gothic rock please. I don't want to mini mod, I just know the mods here are mods because they're metal fans, not because they're gothic rock fans, but anyone who's a gothic rock fan can tell you it's a diverse genre and just because something doesn't sound like Sisters of Mercy it doesn't mean it isn't based on gothic rock.

I am not the greatest gothic rock fan, but I like some of this stuff and can definitely tell gothic rock and metal apart.

What do you mean by Tristania and Theatre of Tragedy following a different kind of gothic rock? In their interviews they admitted being influenced by Fields of The Nephilim and Sisters of Mercy, and that's what you can hear in their sound. I don't remember them mentioning any other gothic rock influences, although I am sure these bands are not the only ones they listened to. Still, Sisters and Fields are the main influences. Listen to Sirenia's debut and compare it to Elizium, the atmosphere is basically the same. I strongly disagree that these bands are closer to Lacrimosa than to Fields, especially considering the artists are very open about their influences. Tilo Wolff helped ToT compose the song Der Tanz der Schatten, so perhaps ToT had some influence from him, but I don't hear it. Honestly, I'm not a great fan of ToT's first two albums, I think they are much duller than what their peers presented later, but I don't hear much gothic rock in them, not even Lacrimosa-style music. Aegis, on the other hand, is basically a heavier version of Sisters, I actually don't really think it's a metal album since there are not many metal riffs there.

Lacrimosa being gothic rock is doubtful to me, I don't hear much gothic rock in their sound. Their early albums sound like neoclassical darkwave, while later stuff is "gothic metal", which in their case means hard rock + neoclassical darkwave. I even asked real gothic rock fans about Lacrimosa being gothic rock, and they said they don't hear gothic rock in their music either. Just for your information, neoclassical darkwave is not goth, it was invented by Dead Can Dance who were darkwave/gothic rock. Even though it has darkwave in its name and has a similar atmosphere, it's not a subgenre of darkwave/gothic rock. Kinda like melodeath is in most cases not a subgenre of death metal despite being originally derived from it.

Also, if a gothic rock band doesn't sound like Sisters, they probably aren't gothic rock, since they basically pioneered this style. At least all gothic rock/darkwave that I heard has similarities with them. They are basically the Iron Maiden of gothic rock. There's a problem of where post-punk ends and gothic rock starts, but it seems the consensus is that Sisters are the pioneers.

Even if they follow a different kind of gothic rock, what's your point? If you are not a fan of gothic rock, you can still easily distinguish death-doom metal riffs from non-metal riffs, which are gothic rock in this case.

As for Trail of Tears, I haven't listened to them a lot, but they don't really sound gothic rock inspired to me. I have only listened to their Dimensions of Might album, so I definitely can't speak about them with confidence. But I have listened to Tristania/Sirenia/The Sins of Thy Beloved albums a lot while analyzing their riffs. I can speak with confidence about Tristania being definitely rooted in death-doom in their earlier albums, albeit with a goth influence, while Sins have very little gothic rock influence. If you don't agree with me, you can always provide some examples of their songs that sound like gothic rock. Same with Draconian and My Dying Bride. I can show you some Tristania riffs that sound like Sisters/Nephilim ones, if you can do the same with Sins, I will believe you.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9110
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:28 pm 
 

So you're saying a metal band has to sound like Black Sabbath because a gothic rock band has to sound like Sisters of Mercy, so Demilich sounds like Black Sabbath. That just makes no sense. And what you hear and what people tell you doesn't matter, this is just simply gothic rock:

Youtube: show
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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:40 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
So you're saying a metal band has to sound like Black Sabbath because a gothic rock band has to sound like Sisters of Mercy, so Demilich sounds like Black Sabbath. That just makes no sense. And what you hear and what people tell you doesn't matter, this is just simply gothic rock:

Youtube: show

Well, all metal bands do indeed sound like Black Sabbath, or more precisely, they are derived from them. You can trace the evolution of metal riffs all the way back to them.
This Lacrimosa song indeed has gothic rock influence, I agree with you. I would even call this a gothic metal song. But most stuff of them that I heard doesn't sound like this.

I never tried to say that Tristania/Theatre of Tragedy have no gothic rock influence, in fact, I stated otherwise. But since they are predominantly death/doom that's what should be in their genre. In other bands I don't hear gothic rock at all, so this tag should be removed from them.

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:34 am 
 

Diplomate wrote:
...

I see After Forever were recently changed from Symphonic gothic/power metal to just Symphonic/power metal. If that's the case, then those bands I listed definitely need to be stripped of the gothic tag as well, since in After Forever's case I could at least hear a few gothic rock style clean guitars on their debut album, but in Draconian, Sins and probably MDB I can't hear even that apart from a few cases. I would say Tristania's Widow's Weeds is not much more gothic than AF's Prison of Desire, so I still believe they need a death/doom tag addition, though their other albums are definitely gothic.

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Metal Asylum
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 3:56 pm
Posts: 60
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:26 am 
 

Metal Asylum wrote:
Ancient:

Should just narrow it down to Black Metal. If an additional tag is needed, you should probably go with Atmospheric- definitely not Melodic. Violins and Female Vocals are scarce and generally build towards a specific gloomy atmosphere, instead of being melody-driven, plus the Vocals themselves are old-school Norwegian Black Metal style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3pNZtC_h28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehS4lR6ZO5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8CLgNbS9kw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az_izQxE10w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RhI43gzvGU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBTu_zsDHII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja3ff1K8zyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFASGQrpO8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzETRHzD9wo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ1fcv_vXhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6YSpzt7Qig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMMc47l6m7w


Little bump, so it won't get buried on the thread.

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