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Shadechaser
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:06 am
Posts: 152
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:44 am 
 

https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/A ... ays/729728
the release had a Version description "Amazon", although it is on iTunes at least.
I asked moderators to tell wojty666 not to add particular digital platforms to this field.
Someone did it?
Fuck.
I'll send him a e-mail, if you don't care

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PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 469
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:05 am 
 

Shadechaser wrote:
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Acamarachi/Our_Last_Blood_Days/729728
the release had a Version description "Amazon", although it is on iTunes at least.
I asked moderators to tell wojty666 not to add particular digital platforms to this field.
Someone did it?
Fuck.
I'll send him a e-mail, if you don't care

Sent him a reminder.
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aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 1735
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:10 am 
 

https://www.metal-archives.com/users/nightbreaker33 adds a lot of band member photos, which, according to this report https://www.metal-archives.com/report/v ... 9/show/all seem like guesswork... maybe a friendly message?

and/or someone go through the photos he added to confirm as possible?
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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:12 am 
 

aloof wrote:
https://www.metal-archives.com/users/nightbreaker33 adds a lot of band member photos, which, according to this report https://www.metal-archives.com/report/v ... 9/show/all seem like guesswork... maybe a friendly message?

and/or someone go through the photos he added to confirm as possible?

Message sent.
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BastardHead wrote:
RakdosWarlord wrote:
So are any tracks available yet for listening?


Yeah there are actually four albums' worth of preview tracks dating back to 2010.

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EpicDismemberment
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:24 am
Posts: 257
Location: ประเทศไทย
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:59 am 
 

Added lyrics one by one: https://www.metal-archives.com/users/Pires666

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PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 469
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:49 am 
 

EpicDismemberment wrote:

Warned.
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HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 537
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:36 pm 
 

https://www.metal-archives.com/users/Cosmic%20Mystery
Added song lengths one by one and has earned loads of points from doing so. Maybe he should also lose his veteran status... I estimate that he'd only have around 800-900 points if he hadn't been point-whoring.
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Shadechaser
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:06 am
Posts: 152
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:52 am 
 

He also adds plenty of digital versions to currently submitted CD entries. If I added cd's and digitals as stand-alone versions I could have easily doubled my points, huh :roll:

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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 7611
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:49 pm 
 

Vigintiseptem wrote:
I noticed a user systematically adding lyrics to cover songs. Should this be encouraged or even allowed? Sometimes cover versions don't exactly follow the originals, so adding the lyrics as copy-paste from the originals is a guessing game.

This is a really wide-spread point-whoring problem that also personally annoys me because every time I put out a cover song with Black Tribe sure enough someone adds the song's original lyrics no matter that I use altered ones most time.

But of course there are more relevant examples than my own projects, just a minute ago I read this review for Mayhem's Deathrehearsal:

https://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/ ... sal/63610/

It talks about Mayhem having their own lyrics for the Dead Kennedys covers. But if you look at the lyrics on the release's page, sure enough someone added the original song lyrics. There's people who do this stuff systematically to artificially inflate their point count, be sure of it. It is a pure guess, and if you see releases with no lyrics with only the lyrics for a cover song added, I'd kindly request that the mods look at it with some suspicion.
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TrooperOfSteel
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:30 am
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:54 am 
 

Hello

A musician friend of mine requested my help in removing his name from a band he claims he was never in, and another registered user in metal-archives added his name out of spite (his words). The registered user who added his name (Ben Sheehan) is called "stigy". The band in question is called "Of Grator"
(https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Of_Grator/47853) (https://www.metal-archives.com/users/stigy)

I have removed the link of the band Of Grator from Ben's personal page here, and added the correct member who sung vocals and played guitar in the band. I have noticed a few modifications made since 2016, I am wondering if there is anyway the admins here can make it so stigy is not able to make any incorrect modifications like he has previously, as Ben is concerned about his name being added to this band when he was never in it.

Any feedback/advice on the matter is appreciated. Thanks

Regards

TrooperOfSteel

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thrashmaniac87
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 575
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:53 pm 
 

https://www.metal-archives.com/users/Mosurg

Some of his edits are legit and some are being done 1 at a time like these
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/A ... XVI/461193
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/F ... sse/421234
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/F ... ief/521673
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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:29 pm 
 

HouseSpiders wrote:
https://www.metal-archives.com/users/Cosmic%20Mystery
Added song lengths one by one and has earned loads of points from doing so. Maybe he should also lose his veteran status... I estimate that he'd only have around 800-900 points if he hadn't been point-whoring.

Already posted in discord but posting here as well, warned this guy.
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BastardHead wrote:
RakdosWarlord wrote:
So are any tracks available yet for listening?


Yeah there are actually four albums' worth of preview tracks dating back to 2010.

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EpicDismemberment
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:24 am
Posts: 257
Location: ประเทศไทย
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:13 am 
 

Added lyrics one by one: https://www.metal-archives.com/users/micronthemachine

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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:58 am 
 

EpicDismemberment wrote:

Sent him a message.
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BastardHead wrote:
RakdosWarlord wrote:
So are any tracks available yet for listening?


Yeah there are actually four albums' worth of preview tracks dating back to 2010.

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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
Posts: 5095
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:37 pm 
 

So here's another guy ignoring a blatant warning and posted guessed lyrics.

https://www.metal-archives.com/users/Drastic_Fate
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booK_of_blood wrote:
booK_of_blood wrote:
Khanus' sound and aesthetics both seem pretty singular to me; I doubt whether any parallels can be drawn between the former and any other band out there...


The most ridiculous claim ever made, this should be a classic signature, but I'm too lazy...



Last.fm

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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:00 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:
So here's another guy ignoring a blatant warning and posted guessed lyrics.

https://www.metal-archives.com/users/Drastic_Fate

Ugh, warned.
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BastardHead wrote:
RakdosWarlord wrote:
So are any tracks available yet for listening?


Yeah there are actually four albums' worth of preview tracks dating back to 2010.

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Krister Jensen
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:48 am
Posts: 150
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:55 pm 
 

Please send Salpius a friendly reminder not to change the country of origin of Crimean bands to Russia.

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Shadechaser
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:06 am
Posts: 152
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:15 am 
 

Please clarify it once again (at least just for me): is it acceptable to add a heap of digital versions released by different labels and/or independently?
Example: https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/M ... ths/711191
As for me it's pure point-whoring... (by Spider_X in this case).
She also adds here two different versions of CD (regular and digipak) although there's only digipak described by the label:
https://invictusproductions.net/shop/ma ... pre-order/

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 9711
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:07 pm 
 

Yeah, that's overkill. In these cases choose one label and mention the rest (labels or self-releases on their own Bandcamp) in the notes. Using common sense, this is the same release/version. Point-whoring is too strong a word here, though, probably just misinformed. I'll let her know.
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Shadechaser
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:06 am
Posts: 152
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:08 am 
 

Sure, that's the only right way I knew.
Thanks for confirmation.

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Spider_X
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:10 am 
 

I got your message, Azmodes, thank you :)

Shadechaser, for the record, I do not point-whore, however I am only human and make my fair share of mistakes, just like everyone else has on here, or elsewhere. I am by no means perfect and do slip up from time to time. If it is felt that I am "point-whoring", points can be docked, as I am not really doing all that I do on here for the points, I would be doing it just the same if no points were rewarded. My problem stems from my OCD, and I try to be as thorough as possible, and I truly do love and care about M-A in general, which is why I am still around, editing what I find and know (but, again, I do make mistakes, and they are not on purpose).

As far as "Malthusian" is concerned, this is where I got the info about (both) the jewelcase and Digipak versions: https://invictusproductions.net/?s=Malt ... _aws=true; so I am assuming that my additions to that release are correct?

And, as for the multiple "digital/ label" releases..... I am kind of confused on this, as again I am just trying to be thorough (NOT for points) with everything; and basically me doing that started out as me seeing it done countless times over by other M-A users, that I ((honestly)) assumed that's what we were supposed to be doing. From my (honest) understanding, is that this counts for all releases of the same, IF the release dates are different, it counts as a seperate release(?).

[[Like for example, take Hermóðr, I update that page alot, because I usually know alot of info on hand, usually before anyone else does.... let's examine his "Vinter" release: we have 6 versions of the 'album'. 1 cassette, 1 vinyl (2 variants), 1 CD, and 3 digitals. Now, for the record, I had entered in the digital 'Independent' version on the date 2017-06-28 which far preceeds M-A user mediocridad, who entered in Schattenkult Produktionen's version, much, much later on the date 2018-08-21 (both mentioned have the same release date).... BUT, THEN because the release date was -different- (on this one), I added Wolfspell's version on 2017-09-18 - here is the album page (for reference): https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/H ... ter/398409]]

So, this whole thing is really confusing, I do not know what is right, or what is wrong in this instance. It's almost like if you have both a CD jewelcase version and a Digipak version, and BOTH have the exact same release date and also sometimes the Cat.ID#, they get seperate listings instead of one listing and adding the other CD format in the Additional Notes section. So, I am not understanding why the digital versions should be any different?

But, again, I am not point-whoring, honestly I am not.
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Spider_X
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:17 am 
 

Oh, also, in case anyone might wonder why I keep on updating Ploughshare's new release "In Offal, Salvation" digital version, is because everytime I check back on Impure Sounds Bandcamp page, on the date it's (supposed to be released), they've changed the date.

While the cassette version has already been released, and I do have one already mailed out (from Night Rhythms); Impure Sounds can't seem to make up their minds WHEN they want to release it digitally(?). They've changed the date again, so I am only editing that page to reflect that. Just a fyi, is all, as it is a third time they've changed it. :)
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Spider_X
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:06 pm 
 

While I'm waiting for a reply to my questions (no rush :) ), to avoid (possibly getting a message/ warning about it?) because as I mentioned above, this is still a bit confusing. As with CDs, (between the jewelcases and the digipaks) get their own seperate listings, while having the same release date.... and, (I already know about the vinyl), but still with vinyl, all variants get one listing, unless a release date is different.... with the digital (Bandcamp) thing.... alot of times the release date from independant to label are differnt, same as with additional labels.

I apologize if I am seeming to make things more difficult than they are, maybe this is something that I just can't understand (I don't know?), but at the same time I am honestly just trying to be thorough.... maybe I'm am being too thorough?

At any rate, if someone would take a moment to explain this to me, why CD versions are treated differently among digital and vinyl.

*****And, see this is what I mean, I was debating on whether or not to add Wolfspell Records' Bandcamp version to Daagh's s/t album (until I had gotten more of a conclusive answer from Azmodes).... I had just entered in the cassette and the CD version, and did not add the digital, because of what was said on here.... was going to put it in the notes, on Wolfspell's CD/ cassette versions that it was also avail. on Wolfspell Records Bandcamp page, but now it's irrelevant to do that, as M-A user Kald Algide added Wolfspell's Bandcamp digital, when I could have done it, cause I was already on that page.

Maybe, if we are not supposed to be adding multiple digitals, a notice on the front page of Metal-Archives needs to be mentioned, as apparently I am one of just many who are doing this, and not just me confused by this as well.

Thoughts?

Daagh's M-A album page (for reference): https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/D ... agh/734217
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Shadechaser
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:06 am
Posts: 152
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:37 pm 
 

Spider_X,
Please re-read Azmodes' message:
Azmodes wrote:
choose one label and mention the rest (labels or self-releases on their own Bandcamp) in the notes.

Also, I numerously raised a conversation about adding some particular digital platform to "version description" field.
I.e., someone writes "Bandcamp" there. What if I find this album been released also on Amazon? iTunes/CDBaby/GooglePlay? Should I add it as a stand-alone one? Of course no.
As for different release date on different digital platforms, band members are free to upload their stuff anywhere they want and at any time, although it evidently makes some problems to us here on MA :) I guess if an album is dated January 1st, 2018 on Bandcamp and January 10th, 2018 on Amazon, I'd simply write January, 2018 as it's release date and pray the world won't crash after this :)

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5175
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:05 pm 
 

Let me digest all of this.

First of all, we don't think you were point-whoring, Spider X. No worries about that. The spirit of that, well, "tag" or "label" is almost always designated to newer users that simply want to rank up as quickly as possible. Once you're already ranked up and have acquired enough points, that label loses all its meaning. We still wouldn't want our users to point whore, but calling someone a point whore who has been around for ages and has acquired their points legitimately is a big stretch. So rest assured, you have nothing to fear there. ;)

One thing to keep in mind about "other versions" is its purpose, which is to distinguish between versions of an album that are different enough to warrant differentiation. In theory, this means that any release that shows any sign of differentiation usually satisfies that requirement, however, that's not always the case. Sometimes the only difference is aesthetic, cosmetic, or at best administrative, but that's not always easy to figure out. We would normally consider an administrative aspect like multiple labels for the same release to be a "difference" that doesn't really warrant a separate version, because presumably in an ideal world we would have an existing feature that would allow us to have multiple labels attached to the same version, and that version would show up equally for all its labels on its labels' pages. Unfortunately we don't have that.

Our practice is to do exactly what Az suggested. If an album was released by multiple labels we would ask you to choose one label, and put the rest in the additional notes. This is not a great solution IMO. As a result, the album only shows up on one label, while the label pages for the other labels would not have it included on their pages. Likewise, by being forced to choose one label over others, we could be perceived as showing a certain level of favoritism. A release that was equally issued by multiple labels may be seen as belonging more to the label it's listed under than the labels included in the album's additional notes. That's not right or correct at all.

With the "other versions" feature there is an opportunity to distinguish an album by its many versions - re-releases, varying formats, and so on. Included in our roll out for that feature was the idea that versions from separate labels should be given separate versions, particularly if they show signs of differentiation in some capacity - for instance, in catalog numbers, release dates, etc. That's not a requirement, of course, but it helps to build the case that it's different.

Keeping this in mind, Spider X has a very valid point here. If there are cases where a version was issued by multiple labels, equally, then for the sake of being able to include that version on each label's page then the version should be separated by label. Ideally once we have a multiple labels per version feature implemented none of this would matter, but until that's the case I'm starting to wonder if it's best to separate out the versions. I'm not sure. It doesn't matter if it's physical or digital. This is the one "exception" that I would argue is fair, given the technical shortcomings of the site. It's something we'll look into.

Beyond that, what Azmodes said about "common sense" is really important for determining other versions, especially for digital versions. Shadechaser is also right that various forms of digital distribution don't warrant their own versions, unless there are other differences already warranting a separate entry. We don't consider 'Bandcamp' 'iTunes' or 'Amazon' as warranting separate versions, no more than we would differentiate album versions based on the distros that carry them. For this reason, even if they have separate release dates, they would not warrant their own entries; no more than if HMV was to stock an item 7 days before it was stocked in another record store. That all said, if you had to choose a release date, choose the earliest one that it was legitimately placed on a digital platform.

To elaborate, if DDR was to release an album on Bandcamp and iTunes, Invictus released it on Bandcamp and Amazon, and another group released it through an official torrent, it's all a single digital version being issued by multiple labels. You wouldn't treat each platform as its own version. That would be like treating the CD sold at HMV and the same CD sold at your neighborhood record store as separate versions.

Another thing to mention, that I don't think was mentioned but should also be known. For the reason explained above, we also don't consider illegal means of digital distribution - ie. Soulseek, or whatever - to warrant their own versions. That gets lumped in with the idea that digital platforms, like distros, don't warrant their own versions.

Anyway, tl;dr. If a digital release has multiple labels, yes, do as Az stated. Although that might change; it's something we're willing to look into. Beyond that, unless there's other non-cosmetic, non-aesthetic, non-administrative differences between digital versions, don't add 'em. Treat digital platforms like Bandcamp, Amazon, etc., as you would treat distros for physical releases. In other words, feel free to mention them in the notes, if you feel it warrants it, but do not give them separate versions based on that alone.
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HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 537
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:57 pm 
 

https://www.metal-archives.com/users/Gufone674

I can't disprove for certain the veracity of this user's submissions, but I am highly suspicious that many of his album line-ups were dumped from the band. The three most recent albums he touched, I checked the album page on Bandcamp to see if any line-up was listed there - nothing at all. An admin suggested that I report him here instantly instead of asking him for the sources myself.
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vacca wrote:
"Pointwhoring is no fun. Pointwhoring endangers the life and happiness of millions. It must stop. We appeal in particular to the youth of today, stop the madness. There are better things in life."

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aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 1735
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:05 pm 
 

^^also lyrics 1b1 on suicidal angels.
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HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 537
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:27 pm 
 

True, but looking at the order and timestamps between each song, he likely did it for the sake of convenience rather than point-whoring... not that it's an excuse, but it was one album, it was two years ago, he's probably long forgotten about it and he hasn't added any lyrics since. That's why I didn't report him for it... didn't think it was worth bothering with.

On the other hand, his (likely) fake line-ups are recent, blatant rule-ignoring and have been added to several albums.
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vacca wrote:
"Pointwhoring is no fun. Pointwhoring endangers the life and happiness of millions. It must stop. We appeal in particular to the youth of today, stop the madness. There are better things in life."

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aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 1735
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:27 am 
 

sorry, didn't mean to interfere with the intricacies of your reporting...
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HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 537
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:36 am 
 

It's fine, anyone can add to my reports. I suppose someone could send him a friendly reminder, showing him the album history and explaining what he did wrong... but I didn't feel that a one-off minor and long forgotten transgression from mid 2016 done for convenience reasons was worth anyone worrying about too much.
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vacca wrote:
"Pointwhoring is no fun. Pointwhoring endangers the life and happiness of millions. It must stop. We appeal in particular to the youth of today, stop the madness. There are better things in life."

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5175
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:56 am 
 

I'll send him a friendly notice.
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cranialcrusherabc
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 11:39 pm
Posts: 116
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:19 pm 
 

Spoiler: show
Derigin wrote:
Let me digest all of this.

First of all, we don't think you were point-whoring, Spider X. No worries about that. The spirit of that, well, "tag" or "label" is almost always designated to newer users that simply want to rank up as quickly as possible. Once you're already ranked up and have acquired enough points, that label loses all its meaning. We still wouldn't want our users to point whore, but calling someone a point whore who has been around for ages and has acquired their points legitimately is a big stretch. So rest assured, you have nothing to fear there. ;)

One thing to keep in mind about "other versions" is its purpose, which is to distinguish between versions of an album that are different enough to warrant differentiation. In theory, this means that any release that shows any sign of differentiation usually satisfies that requirement, however, that's not always the case. Sometimes the only difference is aesthetic, cosmetic, or at best administrative, but that's not always easy to figure out. We would normally consider an administrative aspect like multiple labels for the same release to be a "difference" that doesn't really warrant a separate version, because presumably in an ideal world we would have an existing feature that would allow us to have multiple labels attached to the same version, and that version would show up equally for all its labels on its labels' pages. Unfortunately we don't have that.

Our practice is to do exactly what Az suggested. If an album was released by multiple labels we would ask you to choose one label, and put the rest in the additional notes. This is not a great solution IMO. As a result, the album only shows up on one label, while the label pages for the other labels would not have it included on their pages. Likewise, by being forced to choose one label over others, we could be perceived as showing a certain level of favoritism. A release that was equally issued by multiple labels may be seen as belonging more to the label it's listed under than the labels included in the album's additional notes. That's not right or correct at all.

With the "other versions" feature there is an opportunity to distinguish an album by its many versions - re-releases, varying formats, and so on. Included in our roll out for that feature was the idea that versions from separate labels should be given separate versions, particularly if they show signs of differentiation in some capacity - for instance, in catalog numbers, release dates, etc. That's not a requirement, of course, but it helps to build the case that it's different.

Keeping this in mind, Spider X has a very valid point here. If there are cases where a version was issued by multiple labels, equally, then for the sake of being able to include that version on each label's page then the version should be separated by label. Ideally once we have a multiple labels per version feature implemented none of this would matter, but until that's the case I'm starting to wonder if it's best to separate out the versions. I'm not sure. It doesn't matter if it's physical or digital. This is the one "exception" that I would argue is fair, given the technical shortcomings of the site. It's something we'll look into.

Beyond that, what Azmodes said about "common sense" is really important for determining other versions, especially for digital versions. Shadechaser is also right that various forms of digital distribution don't warrant their own versions, unless there are other differences already warranting a separate entry. We don't consider 'Bandcamp' 'iTunes' or 'Amazon' as warranting separate versions, no more than we would differentiate album versions based on the distros that carry them. For this reason, even if they have separate release dates, they would not warrant their own entries; no more than if HMV was to stock an item 7 days before it was stocked in another record store. That all said, if you had to choose a release date, choose the earliest one that it was legitimately placed on a digital platform.

To elaborate, if DDR was to release an album on Bandcamp and iTunes, Invictus released it on Bandcamp and Amazon, and another group released it through an official torrent, it's all a single digital version being issued by multiple labels. You wouldn't treat each platform as its own version. That would be like treating the CD sold at HMV and the same CD sold at your neighborhood record store as separate versions.

Another thing to mention, that I don't think was mentioned but should also be known. For the reason explained above, we also don't consider illegal means of digital distribution - ie. Soulseek, or whatever - to warrant their own versions. That gets lumped in with the idea that digital platforms, like distros, don't warrant their own versions.

Anyway, tl;dr. If a digital release has multiple labels, yes, do as Az stated. Although that might change; it's something we're willing to look into. Beyond that, unless there's other non-cosmetic, non-aesthetic, non-administrative differences between digital versions, don't add 'em. Treat digital platforms like Bandcamp, Amazon, etc., as you would treat distros for physical releases. In other words, feel free to mention them in the notes, if you feel it warrants it, but do not give them separate versions based on that alone.



Thanks a lot, this was clarifying. Just for the record, I now realize that I might have added some "unvalid" versions in the past few days. I'll try to go through them asap.
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Spider_X
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:48 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:02 pm 
 

Thank you so much Derigin :) , for your very thorough and detailed reply to both me and Shadechaser! I also appreciate that this topic will be discussed with the other Mods. Also, until further notice I will do my best to abide by what Azmodes has requested. I have already I think I have done this twice now.... where there is one digital release added, I made a mention in the Additional Notes section about either/ or alternate digital release. I think it was Blodarv earlier today that I saw the Bandcamp digital from the label, and then I just added in the notes that it was also released independently through Blodarv's Bandcamp page. So, I am hoping that I am doing that correctly?

Derigin wrote:
Let me digest all of this.

First of all, we don't think you were point-whoring, Spider X. No worries about that. The spirit of that, well, "tag" or "label" is almost always designated to newer users that simply want to rank up as quickly as possible. Once you're already ranked up and have acquired enough points, that label loses all its meaning. We still wouldn't want our users to point whore, but calling someone a point whore who has been around for ages and has acquired their points legitimately is a big stretch. So rest assured, you have nothing to fear there. ;)

One thing to keep in mind about "other versions" is its purpose, which is to distinguish between versions of an album that are different enough to warrant differentiation. In theory, this means that any release that shows any sign of differentiation usually satisfies that requirement, however, that's not always the case. Sometimes the only difference is aesthetic, cosmetic, or at best administrative, but that's not always easy to figure out. We would normally consider an administrative aspect like multiple labels for the same release to be a "difference" that doesn't really warrant a separate version, because presumably in an ideal world we would have an existing feature that would allow us to have multiple labels attached to the same version, and that version would show up equally for all its labels on its labels' pages. Unfortunately we don't have that.

Our practice is to do exactly what Az suggested. If an album was released by multiple labels we would ask you to choose one label, and put the rest in the additional notes. This is not a great solution IMO. As a result, the album only shows up on one label, while the label pages for the other labels would not have it included on their pages. Likewise, by being forced to choose one label over others, we could be perceived as showing a certain level of favoritism. A release that was equally issued by multiple labels may be seen as belonging more to the label it's listed under than the labels included in the album's additional notes. That's not right or correct at all.

With the "other versions" feature there is an opportunity to distinguish an album by its many versions - re-releases, varying formats, and so on. Included in our roll out for that feature was the idea that versions from separate labels should be given separate versions, particularly if they show signs of differentiation in some capacity - for instance, in catalog numbers, release dates, etc. That's not a requirement, of course, but it helps to build the case that it's different.

Keeping this in mind, Spider X has a very valid point here. If there are cases where a version was issued by multiple labels, equally, then for the sake of being able to include that version on each label's page then the version should be separated by label. Ideally once we have a multiple labels per version feature implemented none of this would matter, but until that's the case I'm starting to wonder if it's best to separate out the versions. I'm not sure. It doesn't matter if it's physical or digital. This is the one "exception" that I would argue is fair, given the technical shortcomings of the site. It's something we'll look into.

Beyond that, what Azmodes said about "common sense" is really important for determining other versions, especially for digital versions. Shadechaser is also right that various forms of digital distribution don't warrant their own versions, unless there are other differences already warranting a separate entry. We don't consider 'Bandcamp' 'iTunes' or 'Amazon' as warranting separate versions, no more than we would differentiate album versions based on the distros that carry them. For this reason, even if they have separate release dates, they would not warrant their own entries; no more than if HMV was to stock an item 7 days before it was stocked in another record store. That all said, if you had to choose a release date, choose the earliest one that it was legitimately placed on a digital platform.

To elaborate, if DDR was to release an album on Bandcamp and iTunes, Invictus released it on Bandcamp and Amazon, and another group released it through an official torrent, it's all a single digital version being issued by multiple labels. You wouldn't treat each platform as its own version. That would be like treating the CD sold at HMV and the same CD sold at your neighborhood record store as separate versions.

Another thing to mention, that I don't think was mentioned but should also be known. For the reason explained above, we also don't consider illegal means of digital distribution - ie. Soulseek, or whatever - to warrant their own versions. That gets lumped in with the idea that digital platforms, like distros, don't warrant their own versions.

Anyway, tl;dr. If a digital release has multiple labels, yes, do as Az stated. Although that might change; it's something we're willing to look into. Beyond that, unless there's other non-cosmetic, non-aesthetic, non-administrative differences between digital versions, don't add 'em. Treat digital platforms like Bandcamp, Amazon, etc., as you would treat distros for physical releases. In other words, feel free to mention them in the notes, if you feel it warrants it, but do not give them separate versions based on that alone.
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Spider_X
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 107
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:08 pm 
 

Unsure if it should be worried about 4 points or not, but when updating 4 band pages I had written this in the Additional Notes tab: "Also available digitally through Winter Sky Records' Bandcamp page." ~ I went back to Winter Sky Records' Bandcamp page just to make sure I had everything correct, and then I noticed that WSR does his just like Fólkvangr Records'... sets their digital versions to an astronomical, high amount! I guess to better support the artists independantly.

So, that is totally my fault, I did not catch that at all when initially looking things over (when I should have) ~ so, unsure (again) if it matters or not, but I think that was 4 points, so if some points need to be taken away, I completely understand. Mentioning this, so any Mod that were to catch this understands what had happened.

The links however should stay up though, because that is where he is also selling the cassettes.
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EzraBlumenfeld
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:50 pm
Posts: 221
Location: Land of No Return
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:12 pm 
 

The user marcelle_crss adds heard lyrics and undoes language-specific capitalization.
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MisanthropicEvil wrote:
This album reeled me in with it's eye-catching album cover but vomited a whole load of musical diarrhea in my face as soon as I started listening! I would not even use this album to wipe my butt.


Last.fm

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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:16 pm 
 

EzraBlumenfeld wrote:
The user marcelle_crss adds heard lyrics and undoes language-specific capitalization.

Sent him a note about language specific capitalization. Proof that he adds heard lyrics?
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BastardHead wrote:
RakdosWarlord wrote:
So are any tracks available yet for listening?


Yeah there are actually four albums' worth of preview tracks dating back to 2010.

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EzraBlumenfeld
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:50 pm
Posts: 221
Location: Land of No Return
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:19 pm 
 

Storm of the Light's Bane wrote:
EzraBlumenfeld wrote:
The user marcelle_crss adds heard lyrics and undoes language-specific capitalization.

Sent him a note about language specific capitalization. Proof that he adds heard lyrics?


I posted a report on Symphony X's Paradise Lost. He also did it to Anthrax, Accept, and Iced Earth albums if you go back through his history.

For example:
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/A ... eal/525664
_________________
MisanthropicEvil wrote:
This album reeled me in with it's eye-catching album cover but vomited a whole load of musical diarrhea in my face as soon as I started listening! I would not even use this album to wipe my butt.


Last.fm

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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:20 pm 
 

EzraBlumenfeld wrote:
I posted a report on Symphony X's Paradise Lost. He also did it to Anthrax, Accept, and Iced Earth albums if you go back through his history.

For example:
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/A ... eal/525664

I'll check my copy of Paradise Lost later today.
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BastardHead wrote:
RakdosWarlord wrote:
So are any tracks available yet for listening?


Yeah there are actually four albums' worth of preview tracks dating back to 2010.

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EzraBlumenfeld
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:50 pm
Posts: 221
Location: Land of No Return
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:21 pm 
 

Storm of the Light's Bane wrote:
EzraBlumenfeld wrote:
I posted a report on Symphony X's Paradise Lost. He also did it to Anthrax, Accept, and Iced Earth albums if you go back through his history.

For example:
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/A ... eal/525664

I'll check my copy of Paradise Lost later today.


Alright. Either way, I'm 98% sure there's no "???????" in "Domination," and the user in question added that.
_________________
MisanthropicEvil wrote:
This album reeled me in with it's eye-catching album cover but vomited a whole load of musical diarrhea in my face as soon as I started listening! I would not even use this album to wipe my butt.


Last.fm

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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:02 pm 
 

EzraBlumenfeld wrote:
Alright. Either way, I'm 98% sure there's no "???????" in "Domination," and the user in question added that.

Well, yeah I know. Jesus fuck though, the lyrics he changed them to hardly even match up with the official lyrics... User critically warned, not his first critical warning, either. I've fixed the lyrics on PR. I'll fix the rest of SX's discography since he likely messed up all of it. Please go ahead and fix his edits you know are incorrect. What a dumbass.
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BastardHead wrote:
RakdosWarlord wrote:
So are any tracks available yet for listening?


Yeah there are actually four albums' worth of preview tracks dating back to 2010.

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