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Bonziepsycho
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 79
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:39 pm 
 

I know this is genre related, but I feel that it should be excluded from the greater form because it is an argument for something greater.

I would like to make a case for "pornogrind" being recognized as a legitimate genre on this site. I would even be okay with it being a pair genre (such as slam is now a sub/pair genre with brutal death), being paired as "Pornogrind/Goregrind" when put as a tag. Pornogrind being classified just by the gurgle vocals and pornographic images/lyrics is a misnomer; lyric genres do exist and this is why I am not making a case for pirate or goblin metal. Yes, both of those qualities are very important to the style, but there are many pure goregrind bands on this site that have these porn images and gurgle vocals--exactly why Cemetery Rapist is not Pornogrind. The song structures and riffs define pornogrind, making it unique.

I feel that pornogrind in itself is rather different from the similar styles it is often mistaken or compared with. Standard grindcore or deathgrind are obviously incredibly different genres when diving deeper into the already vast subgenre. The reason, I think, pornogrind has never been seen on this site before is because it is not acceptable per the rules, and is generally referred to as (punk based) "groovy/bouncy goregrind," which is sort of what it is. I have also seen it referred to as riffless noise, which it can be at times, but is not generally the case. It is a subgenre of goregrind that has unique qualities, such as slam is to standard brutal death.

Here are samples of the different genres and the different qualities they have:

Goregrind
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9SRdoAg02w (this is not pornogrind just because it has the vocal style associated with it)
* https://byonoisegenerator.bandcamp.com/ ... is-lp-2015 (slammy goregrind)
* https://haggus.bandcamp.com/album/mince ... nger-ep-cs (this is not pornogrind just because it has the vocal style associated with it)
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmH-32a78Tc (this is not pornogrind)

Pornogrind
* https://neurosarcadictoveria.bandcamp.com/ (Pornogrind/Goregrind)
* https://alienfucker.bandcamp.com/album/ ... e-in-space
* https://putridattitude.bandcamp.com/alb ... eclaration
* https://analfistfuckers.bandcamp.com/al ... rn-maniacs
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5Ri_L-eW8A
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41bgOG6-2tw

Grind 'n' Roll
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpNCMTEu43E
* https://dallekillers.bandcamp.com/album/gore-and-roll
* https://bandzone.cz/felisha?at=

Noisegrind
* https://shitfuckingshit.bandcamp.com/al ... -2006-2007
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GmI23OJneE
* Anal Cunt
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_juFN8XPH8 (cyber noisecore)

Gore Noise
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyR9G-IALWA

The reason I've broken this down is because I feel that Cock and Ball Torture hold qualities of being pornogrind and having it included in their genre, not because of the lyrics, but because they play the style. So, I think the style should be updated to "Pornogrind/Goregrind/Death Metal." I have not found other bands on this site yet that could qualify under this style, and I do not want any pornographic goregrind band to be mistaken for this style either. Based on the samples that I have provided, I hope to have clarified the differences in these grind styles, and made a better understanding of why pornogrind is not a lyric genre.
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MutantClannfear
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 3240
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:30 pm 
 

So, the problem with pornogrind is that that same style of polka-beats-to-downtuned-churning is also referred to alternatively as "groovy goregrind", with the only difference between that tag and pornogrind being the lyrical themes. For that reason, and because most people who use the term "pornogrind" are referring to the lyrical themes and aren't aware of the stylistic differences, we opt to group all of these bands under the "goregrind" tag.
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Bonziepsycho
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 79
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:06 pm 
 

I understand what you mean, but I’d argue that almost all groovy goregrind is in fact pornogrind, or pornogrind/goregrind. I think lyrically, porn is to pornogrind as death is to death metal. The lyrical themes come with the territory of music, but don’t define it. Alien Fucker for example, are very watered down with porn lyrics, but produce the “groovy goregrind,” or simply pornogrind. You could say that slam is also alternatively just brutal death metal, but it is generally agreed that it is slightly different. The problem with pornogrind is that there are more people who hate the style than like it. But, those who do enjoy the bottom depths of grind do in fact differentiate the styles. Also it would be helpful to note that there will likely be less than 20 bands ever on this site that ever meet this tag due to the bands that play this style try very little to be metallic in any way. CBT is the first, and possibly the last, band to play this style on this site, that we know of. So I’d ask that pornogrind is given the same consideration that slam was finally given.
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MutantClannfear
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:22 pm 
 

For me, it's not an issue of how much usage the term will actually see on the website. The issue in my mind is that in the case of this particular genre/microscene, there are two terms being used to describe the same kind of music, and both carry their own baggage. We can either opt for "goregrind", a term that is perhaps not as descriptive as it could be, but is at least indeed used to describe these bands and therefore not inaccurate per se; or we can use "pornogrind", which technically describes this type of music very well, but also gets liberally misapplied to anything in the grind spectrum with porn-focused lyrics. I don't really expect users of the site to understand why something would be labeled as "pornogrind" on a musical level, so I feel like it'd lead to confusion, with people asking why other sexually-themed -grind bands on MA aren't considered pornogrind, or saying that a gore-themed "groovy goregrind" band isn't pornogrind. That's why I think "goregrind" is the better choice - it's slightly less specific, but also much less confusing.

As for a hybrid genre like "pornogrind/goregrind", I think that's quite redundant. IMO, there's so much crossover between these two scenes that it's not comparable to something like slam vs. regular BDM, where slam can now stand completely alone from original, Disgorge-styled BDM, and slam is now influencing deathcore/beatdown hardcore with zero influence from that original type of BDM. Goregrind vs. pornogrind can be summarized as a difference of styles within the same genre, like how "caverncore" and "dissodeath" both have different rhythmic/melodic tendencies but fit snugly within the genre of death metal.
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Bonziepsycho
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 79
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:11 pm 
 

One thing I can truly say about this site is that the accuracy of genres, for the most part, have been beneficial to me since getting into metal at a young age. I called Amon Amarth viking metal and Skeletonwitch black metal until learning and understanding what their actual styles were, because of this site. Like I said before, most people do not like the band CBT, but for those who do, the inaccuracy of their style will continue to be a problem until it is changed. So in a lot of ways, it can cause more good than harm including it on this site so that the misconception is used less; regardless, referring to pornogrind only based on lyrics will always be a misnomer. Yes, there may be some common user confusion, but in the end of the day, it is the mods like you that ensure the accuracy of genres. Even still, there are users confused with Amon Amarth not having viking at all in their style. If in the rare occurrence a band who plays pornogrind makes it on this site, it really should be properly labeled.

The only issue with your disapproval of "pornogrind/goregrind" for this site is that no sole pornogrind band will ever be included in this site; the style will never have any metallic elements, unless combined with goregrind, death metal, etc... To some extent Carcass' early genre would be redundant because "goregrind" implies the "grindcore." Yes, goregrind and pornogrind are virtually identical to most people, but it is possible to include both when the band ventures between the groove porno shit and the metallic goregrind riffs--again, the only way a pornogrind band would ever be included on this site.
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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 5698
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:50 pm 
 

I think the addition would be excessive and really a matter of splitting hairs in a genre that is already borderline on the site to begin with. If we were a punk/grind encyclopedia I would be in favor of your suggestion. As it stands the amount of goregrind we have is minimal and the amount of pornogrind would be even more minimalistic. The genres are similar enough that they really don't need to be distinguished here.

Slam is a different case because much more of that genre is seen as acceptably metal as per the site guidelines.
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Bonziepsycho
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 79
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:16 am 
 

I totally agree that punk sub genres is splitting hairs, and if we only used “punk” or “grindcore” to classify these bands then I would reluctantly agree; however, every single sub genre of grind is included on this site: goregrind, grind ‘n’ roll, noisegrind, cybergrind (and the latter two are not acceptable but have made it due to a metallic second genre)... all except pornogrind (which now has a band to go with) and gore noise, which is hardly music. Punk too is a lot of times classified more specifically here. If you look there is crust punk, d-beat, crustcore, thrashcore, powerviolence, punk rock, etc... punk genres that don’t just go by “punk.” So it seems counterintuitive to just exclude one more punk genre because it’s finally able to be used properly here. And if you ask me, crust punk vs crustcore vs d-beat is an extreme case of splitting hairs and all these genres are included on this site.
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