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Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=127149 |
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Author: | CheesusCrust [ Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews |
So are the admins ok with some of the old reviews where offensive language was more acceptable? I feel like MA is one of the few places I see ableist or homophobic words ("r*tard, "f*ggot") used not only on the boards but on reviews with no consequences. Examples of reviews with offensive language; "When Down Syndrome And Vikings Collide - 1%" by GuntherTheUndying for In Battle by Kingdom of Fear- https://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/ ... ying/66976 "The Royal Seal of Gayness" by hells_unicorn for Roots by Sepultura. https://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/ ... corn/29518 Side note; one of many, MANY of his reviews using the word gay in a derogatory manner, pretty pathetic for a 30 year old man (at the time) to use such language. "Ages Like Milk" by Trooper Ed for Into the Pandemonium by Celtic Frost https://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/ ... nium/3023/ "Except the problem with the execution of these new vocals is that they, for lack of a better term, are, well, there's no easy way to put this: Mr. Garrison, this is what we call.....gay. Really, really gay. I heard one reviewer considerably more elitist and conservative than I am refer to these as "homosexual mating calls" and while that's a little much, I'm afraid they aren't far from the truth." There are many more examples if you search around MA. Do we need ableist or homophobic remarks in reviews? Should older, insensitive reviews be deleted? |
Author: | droneriot [ Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles |
There's a pretty clear line between insensitivity and bigotry or hate speech and strict rules against the latter are good and make sense, but for the former I hope you realise that it's perfectly fine to just criticise people for doing it and that you don't need to pull the sledgehammer for every little bit of lack of consideration? Like you can't go to the review subforum and criticise people for it, you need the full force of the law to rain down upon them? |
Author: | LycanthropeMoon [ Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles |
I'm gay and the older more blatantly homophobic reviews don't offend me, but that could be because I've become inoculated against this kind of language since it used to be far more common in metal. Maybe don't delete them, but be a bit more discerning with current and future reviews? |
Author: | droneriot [ Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles |
Recently a reviewer made dumb comments about Mina Caputo in a review, was called out for it in the review discussion thread, he changed it. I'm absolutely not a fan of having heavy-handed rules for things that can be addressed by talking to people. |
Author: | Pichushkin [ Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles |
If you’re the type who’s easily offended then maybe Metal isn’t for you. |
Author: | CheesusCrust [ Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles |
Pichushkin wrote: If you’re the type who’s easily offended then maybe Metal isn’t for you. Anyone should be able to listen to metal, the easily offended and not easily offended. The music is one thing but they shouldn't see reviews with this kind of language. If it was racist remarks they'd be gone but I can't understand why ableism and homophobia is ok. Don't even get me started on the toxic masculinity in metal. |
Author: | HeavenDuff [ Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles |
It's a weird coincidence that this thread is coming up right now, because earlier last week I was going through some older reviews, and I noticed this Noktorn guy who's writen more than a handful of reviews, and he's a repeate offender for the homophobic slang in his reviews. https://www.metal-archives.com/users/Noktorn A quick Ctrl+F of the words "gay" or "fag" through his reviews gives more than a handful results. If you actually look at the reviews themselves, it's even worst. You'll easily find some hateful judgemental shit against other Finish people for instance. I'm pretty much with the OP on this. Maybe the reviews shouldn't be erased, but the reviewers should be asked to change them. And if they don't, than yeah... erase them. I'm not even sure why we'd want them on here. droneriot wrote: Recently a reviewer made dumb comments about Mina Caputo in a review, was called out for it in the review discussion thread, he changed it. I'm absolutely not a fan of having heavy-handed rules for things that can be addressed by talking to people. This kind of logic relies solely on the presumption that these people are actually bigoted shitheads but rather that they were akward or that they didn't do it on purpose. A lot of people aren't actually nice. And I don't actually see why we should be tolerating homophobia, sexism, racism or any kind of bigotry. Consider the case of the guy I mentioned at the top of my post. |
Author: | droneriot [ Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles |
HeavenDuff wrote: This kind of logic relies solely on the presumption that these people are actually bigoted shitheads but rather that they were akward or that they didn't do it on purpose. A lot of people aren't actually nice. And I don't actually see why we should be tolerating homophobia, sexism, racism or any kind of bigotry. Consider the case of the guy I mentioned at the top of my post. No, the kind of logic where you talk to people does not rely on any presumptions whatsoever because you're not guessing what the person intended to say, you're literally asking the person directly. Only your kind of logic relies on presumptions because you're just randomly making up motivtions as you go. Again, there is a clear line between insensitivity and bigotry and there doesn't need to be any heavy-handed approach in a situation where you can simply ask people to put a little more thought into what they write. We're not talking about some big anonymous social media platform here, we're talking about a site where most of the people involved talk to each other on the forums on a daily basis. People like the OP wanting to suckerpunch people with a moderator sledgehammer because you're too lazy to just point out dumb parts of reviews to them in the appropriate subforum? That's just weak. In a nutshell: "Can't be bothered to talk to people to tone down their dated 90s metalhead lingo that has aged terribly, will accuse them of being bigots instead." Really upstanding way to go, right there. |
Author: | HeavenDuff [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles |
droneriot wrote: No, the kind of logic where you talk to people does not rely on any presumptions whatsoever because you're not guessing what the person intended to say, you're literally asking the person directly. Only your kind of logic relies on presumptions because you're just randomly making up motivtions as you go. Again, there is a clear line between insensitivity and bigotry and there doesn't need to be any heavy-handed approach in a situation where you can simply ask people to put a little more thought into what they write. We're not talking about some big anonymous social media platform here, we're talking about a site where most of the people involved talk to each other on the forums on a daily basis. People like the OP wanting to suckerpunch people with a moderator sledgehammer because you're too lazy to just point out dumb parts of reviews to them in the appropriate subforum? That's just weak. In a nutshell: "Can't be bothered to talk to people to tone down their dated 90s metalhead lingo that has aged terribly, will accuse them of being bigots instead." Really upstanding way to go, right there. Did you actually read any of the reviews by Noktorn? Because your whole presumption of innocence is all nice and dandy until you actually take a real look, even a quick one, into what reviewers such as him actually write. It's not just about a dated 90's metalhead lingo here where "gay" means lame or some crap like this. The man actually makes an awful lot of references to how men sucking penises or taking it up their asses is something inherently wrong. Not to mention that this kind of "dated lingo" relies heavily on normalized homophobia. So yeah, maybe if we stretch this situation as much as we possibly can, the guy might not be an homophobic douche, but he's still using homophobic language and that's not cool either. Saying anything about my logic is random is a very questionable use of the word random. There is nothing random about looking up someone's reviews and noticing the excessive use of homophobic slang. It's not just one or two occurances here and there in, it's a pretty significal amount of occurances, going up to as recently as 2012. If you were using homophobic slang by than you were obviously not doing it out of sheer ignorance, no. As for telling the reviewers to change their shit. We might end up waiting for a long time if we do so. Especially with folks like Noktorn who seems to have left the boat about 8 years ago. I'm not talking about banning anyone. But I'm pretty sure we don't need reviews entitled "gay", all that much. |
Author: | CheesusCrust [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:25 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles |
Quote: I'm not talking about banning anyone. But I'm pretty sure we don't need reviews entitled "gay", all that much. Besides being offensive to some, calling things 'gay' is just extremely childish and devoid of any originality. That by default makes the entire metal community look childish and potentially homophobic. So Mr. Hells_Unicorn it would be great if you got rid of your "Royal Seal of Gayness" review titles. Maybe you are not a homophobe but a grown man pushing 40 should not be using the word 'gay' in that manner. |
Author: | droneriot [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews |
Noktorn was a full-on, Blake Judd-level self-loathing heroin addict at the time. No one would miss his reviews if they were gone, but he isn't really representative of anything other than heroin being bad for you. |
Author: | Napalm_Satan [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews |
Noktorn's review for Fall of the Leafe's Aerolithe was straight up deleted because the main critique of the album he was serving up - what he titled the review and what he referenced multiple times throughout it to be exact - was that the music is 'gay', as if that's a meaningful or mature or insightful critique. He did actually focus on the music but enough of it was taken up by that to have it deleted I think. And yes, I am aware he is bisexual, so you can say he has stronger grounds for using that word. Well, I myself am LGBT too, and I think sincerely using 'gay' as an insult like that is derogatory and above all else, childish. Using it as the crux of a review is really fucking stupid too, as it's not a critique or something that means anything. The review, if you're interested:
Spoiler:
show
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Author: | Twisted_Psychology [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:30 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews |
Thankfully this sort of talk isn't as common as it used to be, at least around here. 2000s-era review culture is truly a surreal experience when going back to it in 2020. |
Author: | Empyreal [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:21 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews |
Nobody would miss a lot of that shit now, I bet. But it was a different time and I'd hope most of these guys have grown up since then. I probably used some dumb wordings like that a few times too and I'd never do it now. |
Author: | colin040 [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews |
Empyreal wrote: Nobody would miss a lot of that shit now, I bet. But it was a different time and I'd hope most of these guys have grown up since then. I probably used some dumb wordings like that a few times too and I'd never do it now. I'll always remember your review for A Sense of Purpose which does show a younger, yet entertaining Empyreal! Quote: People will crow on about how The Jester Race and Lunar Strain were good albums, but most of those people don't know what the fuck they're talking about, and I say those albums were mediocre, and In Flames was never good. And: Quote: But really, what is the worst thing about this at the end of the day? That Goddamned self-piteous, whinging, I'm-so-tormented attitude that has plagued so many bands these days. What could possibly be entertaining about listening to a grown man whine about "killing what burns inside" or "I feel like shit, but at least I feel something"? What could possibly be gleaned at all from that? It's pathetic, just another lifeless attempt to cash in on the feeble, angst-ridden minds of the fourteen year old '00 generation that think they have it so hard. Here's an idea: If you think you have it hard, with your two-story house, outdoor pool, married set of parents and nice clothes, how about you come over here so I can bash your fucking head through a wall and break your In Flames CDs in half? Now cheer the fuck up, enjoy what you have and stop listening to this crap!
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Author: | Thexhumed [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews |
CheesusCrust wrote: Besides being offensive to some, calling things 'gay' is just extremely childish and devoid of any originality. That by default makes the entire metal community look childish and potentially homophobic. Not in the mood to stir any controversy, or to play the devil's advocate on a matter that is pretty menial, but to say that people will assume the entire metal community is childish and (potentially) homophobic based on old album reviews is to blow things out of proportion and a strong display of blind prejudice, if you ask me. |
Author: | bayern [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews |
Thexhumed wrote: Not in the mood to stir any controversy, or to play the devil's advocate on a matter that is pretty menial, but to say that people will assume the entire metal community is childish and (potentially) homophobic based on old album reviews is to blow things out of proportion and a strong display of blind prejudice, if you ask me. Yep... exactly |
Author: | Derigin [ Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Homophobic, Ableist and otherwise Offensive Review Titles and Offensive Content in the Reviews |
Quote: So are the admins ok with some of the old reviews where offensive language was more acceptable? For the record, we're never OK with homophobic or derogatory remarks in reviews and will reassess them as they come to our attention. We have a thread for doing so here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4153 Please feel free to bring up reviews you feel should be deleted there. |
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