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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:32 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Okay, we all know and love ANA, but I feel like I need to further shower praise on him by saying that this paragraph:

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
Angel Witch are fucking pansies – the epitome of wimpy NWOBHM. They sound as if they wouldn't say boo to a goose. Cronos, Mantas and Abbaddon - if they lived in London - would kick their arses in the pub, the graveyard, the bus station and even the library. After this old school roughhousing, Angel Witch would retreat to a quiet tavern and nurse their wounds over a rum and coke. Fuck, even Dennis Stratton laughs at these guys and he likes The Eagles!


Is one of the best on the site. I don't know why, but this cracked me up far more than it should have.

Actually, the entire thing is fantastic, everybody should read it right now.

http://www.metal-archives.com/review.php?id=3626#115569


Well, I do prefer the Kevin Heybourne hair-straighteners line in the opening paragraph, but the important lesson to get from that paragraph is that The Eagles suck and Venom rules. A voice of infinite wisdom wholeheartedly concurs:

TheDude wrote:
Jesus, man, can you change the station?... I've had a rough night and I hate The fucking Eagles, man


Thanks anyway, tubby.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:34 pm 
 

Quote:
And finally, the last stinker: The Evil that Men Do!! Oh yes, how the hell is this song considered a classic? Whiny lyrics, very poor guitar work, annoying chorus... yes, it's that bad! One of the most overrated heavy metal pieces, really.


from Nhorf's new Seventh Son review. The lyrics are part of the concept, and I don't find them whiny at all. And the chorus/riffs all rule.
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Skanky

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:47 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:49 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
revoltingblob on Ashes Against The Grain wrote:
Overall, this album isn't the worst I've ever heard, but a massive dissapointment when considered to the first two Agalloch releases. I had hoped this album would have more of a folk sound, but they've replaced it with a more ambient/post-rock inspired sound. I know Agalloch can do better than this.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, ambient/post-rock, what the hell? I know Agalloch can do better than to explore new territories and add new influences to their sound. So disappointing.


Intention does not equal quality. Simply incorporating new influences into your sound means nothing if you can't do it well. Oh, and did it ever occur to you that he may not like ambient/post-rock, and thinks they were taking their talents in the wrong direction?

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hakarl
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:56 pm 
 

ThrashingMad wrote:
Ilwhyan wrote:
revoltingblob on Ashes Against The Grain wrote:
Overall, this album isn't the worst I've ever heard, but a massive dissapointment when considered to the first two Agalloch releases. I had hoped this album would have more of a folk sound, but they've replaced it with a more ambient/post-rock inspired sound. I know Agalloch can do better than this.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, ambient/post-rock, what the hell? I know Agalloch can do better than to explore new territories and add new influences to their sound. So disappointing.


Intention does not equal quality. Simply incorporating new influences into your sound means nothing if you can't do it well. Oh, and did it ever occur to you that he may not like ambient/post-rock, and thinks they were taking their talents in the wrong direction?
Maybe I should've made clear that the reviewer doesn't actually explain what went wrong with the experimentation, why he doesn't like the new style, or anything along those lines. He simply states that he found the new direction disappointing because it's no longer the same folk-metallish Agalloch that he likes.

He also says that there are three good songs (out of eight) and also devotes an entire paragraph to praising the music. Yet, he gave a rating of 25%.
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Skanky

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:03 pm 
 

That all seems entirely reasonable.

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hakarl
Metel fraek

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:50 pm 
 

I'm not saying that the claims are unfounded (though I disagree with them), but the reviewer doesn't really prove that they aren't anyway.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:11 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
He simply states that he found the new direction disappointing because it's no longer the same folk-metallish Agalloch that he likes.


And there is nothing wrong with that.
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Skanky

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:11 pm 
 

And certainly not anything wrong enough about it to get a mention in this thread.

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hakarl
Metel fraek

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:20 pm 
 

Well, it seems my belief that reviewers should actually explain what makes the album good/bad, what about it, and why, is false. This review only states the first of these, and as a person who writes and reads reviews, I find it insufficient both as musical description and as a sole reason for such a low score.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:23 pm 
 

I think he did explain why. It's their change in style (which he then describes); that is sufficient enough for me.
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OlympicSharpshooter
The Universal Magnetic

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:24 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:38 pm 
 

I'm with you on this one Il. He definitely seems like the type of music fan who would prefer his favourite artists make only incremental changes, if any change at all.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:39 pm 
 

Yes, but that is not really a problem.
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OlympicSharpshooter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:45 pm 
 

When one is appraising art, it kinda is. The review isn't exactly delete-bin material, but when his main point is that 'different = bad', I don't see much reason to respect his opinion as a critic.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:46 pm 
 

Why not? If the difference is bad in itself, which is what he's arguing, then it's perfectly valid.
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OlympicSharpshooter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:55 pm 
 

Perhaps had he phrased his argument more incisively, and demonstrated that he dislikes how Agalloch's approach to these genres is less successful than their folk material rather than just complaining about how the record in question isn't folk, he would've had something. When one's entire review is just complaining about a stylistic change, and then giving it a grade that is clearly lower than the text of the review supports because of it, it's just bad criticism.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:56 pm 
 

I took exactly what you suggested to be what he was arguing in the first place. I don't see how it could be confused otherwise.
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OlympicSharpshooter
The Universal Magnetic

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:03 pm 
 

The review says pretty strongly, to me anyway, folk = good, ambient and post-rock = bad. Nothing indicates that his problem is with Agalloch's approach to these genres, which may or may not be good, but rather with Agalloch making a record in a genre he doesn't like or understand. It's fair enough to dislike a record for these reasons, but to say that it's actually a bad record and award it a 25% score as a result is pretty specious.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:06 pm 
 

I suppose we just interpret the review rather differently then, nothing to do about that. I thought it was very strongly claiming that Agalloch's change is bad, not that post-rock is bad.
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OlympicSharpshooter
The Universal Magnetic

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:29 pm 
 

Matter of perspective I suppose.
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:20 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
I suppose we just interpret the review rather differently then, nothing to do about that. I thought it was very strongly claiming that Agalloch's change is bad, not that post-rock is bad.

Regardless of what he was claiming, he never explains why it's bad; he describes some of the tracks he likes (the folk inspired ones), he explains the two ambient tracks, but he never touches on any of the post rock tracks, aside from generic descriptive adjectives: "boring", "decent", etc. Considering his apparent complete lack of post-rock knowledge (doesn't point out any comparisons, never says something along the lines of "X band does it well, but Agalloch just aren't good at the style), it really does seem to me that as OSS said, he doesn't like post-rock. There's nothing wrong with disliking a genre change, but that doesn't mean he can just say "this is post rock, I don't like post rock" and not describe anything. Reading his review it almost appears that he just listened to the post-rock tracks once, said "this is boring", and skipped on to the next one. It's not really nuke-worthy, but it's not a good review either.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:35 pm 
 

That really isn't a problem. I don't like metalcore and if I reviewed a metalcore album, I'd definitely say so and justify my negative scoring with that sentiment.
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Skanky

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:17 pm 
 

I think their points are that the criticism of it for being post-rock, in itself, is alright, but he didn't back it up with reasons as to why he doesn't like post-rock. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting it?

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:24 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
That really isn't a problem. I don't like metalcore and if I reviewed a metalcore album, I'd definitely say so and justify my negative scoring with that sentiment.

ThrashingMad wrote:
I think their points are that the criticism of it for being post-rock, in itself, is alright, but he didn't back it up with reasons as to why he doesn't like post-rock. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting it?

ThrashingMad basically said what I would have: if you were to review a metalcore album, rexxz, you wouldn't just say "this is metalcore, metalcore is boring" and give it a 25% or whatever, which is essentially what the dude did with the post-rock parts of that Agalloch album. You would explain why you find metalcore boring, and how the album in question displays those negative qualities.
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Lyrici17
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:29 am 
 

Sure, it's not incredibly detailed, but he gives me good insight into the album.

If a band like Ensiferum dropped their folksier sound, and adopted a doom metal sound I would want to know about it. [and I could see myself saying I didn't like the change, because I preferred the albums where Ensiferum had folk elements in their music - because I liked those albums better].

I don't see why he has to explain why he doesn't like the change. Isn't it kind of a visceral listening reaction? He doesn't like the change, ok. I can take the information he has given me (they've changed - this is what they've changed to) and decide if I want to hear the album based on that, or not. I also don't think boring is a vague comment. I think boring is a pretty specific comment.

Case in point: if I had heard "Pale Folklore" and "The Mantle", but not "Ashes Against the Grain", I would find this review helpful (I think - I obviously don't know for sure since I heard "Ashes Against the Grain" before I read this review).
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:43 am 
 

Boring is incredibly vague; I could say watching golf on TV is boring and metalcore is boring and be completely truthful in each case. For that matter I could probably say every album I don't like is boring, and be reasonably accurate. Still sticking to very general terms, "boring" can be narrowed down quite a bit; does the music meander too much, lacking a suitable climax? Is it too repetitive? Are the riffs/melodies/vocals/whatever simply not very good? Some combination of the above? Golf on TV would perhaps fall into the second category, while metalcore fits the third.

For another example, what if I were to say about Chaos AD that Sepultura lose some thrash and gain more groove, and that the album is boring because of that? It would be true, it would even tell you something useful about the album if you'd heard nothing about it before, but if that were pretty much all I said it wouldn't be a good review. The Agalloch review describes some tracks, sure, but the post-rock parts -apparently the main reason for his giving the album such a low score- are summarily described as "boring". That's it.
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Lyrici17
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:59 am 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Boring is incredibly vague; I could say watching golf on TV is boring and metalcore is boring and be completely truthful in each case. For that matter I could probably say every album I don't like is boring, and be reasonably accurate. Still sticking to very general terms, "boring" can be narrowed down quite a bit; does the music meander too much, lacking a suitable climax? Is it too repetitive? Are the riffs/melodies/vocals/whatever simply not very good? Some combination of the above? Golf on TV would perhaps fall into the second category, while metalcore fits the third.

For another example, what if I were to say about Chaos AD that Sepultura lose some thrash and gain more groove, and that the album is boring because of that? It would be true, it would even tell you something useful about the album if you'd heard nothing about it before, but if that were pretty much all I said it wouldn't be a good review. The Agalloch review describes some tracks, sure, but the post-rock parts -apparently the main reason for his giving the album such a low score- are summarily described as "boring". That's it.



I can't argue with most of your points really; you're pretty much right on. However, I also cannot argue with how I took in (perceived) the review... if that makes any sense...
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Pierrepoint
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Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:36 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:58 pm 
 

Droneriot, on Agalloch's Pale Folklore wrote:
This band is nice. This album is nice. It's just something you put on, lie back, and relax. You know, kind of like Enya, Sigur Rós or those relaxation CDs you can buy at the supermarket with sounds of ocean waves or tropical rain or whatever. It is very nice. Very relaxing. Very comfortable. But quite frankly, there's a bit of a problem with that, for me at least. The problem is the same that plagues aforementioned "artists": There's absolutely nothing behind this music. It's as shallow as that breeze on your "sounds of nature"-CD. Where other bands come at you with the force of a tidal wave, Agalloch trickles by like the sparse remains of a long-passed mild rain in the gutter. You know, the type of stuff that makes muzak seem exciting in comparison.

This actually made this review one of the hardest for me to ever write, because this whole thing is just so unmemorable that every time it was over I had to put it on again just to refresh my memory on what it was like. When everything just passes by you without impact it is hard to find something to either praise or lament. There's just nothing at all. No drive, no hooks, no atmosphere, no emotions, no message... Nothing to jumpstart your imagination or to get you thinking, or at least something to rhythmically nod your head to, it's all missing here. It goes far beyond "unspectacular", it's just nothing at all.

The music itself is, I don't really know what to say, because I already used the word "unspectacular" about a handful of seconds ago. The whole band sounds like they swallowed more valium than even pharmacies from the United States would allow one to consume. The guitarist certainly sounds like the only thought on his mind is going to sleep as soon as possible, and apparently his band members forced him to record an album on the most excessive sleep deprivation imaginable. Not sure if there was even any songwriting involved, or just going along with playing the most obvious of scales, I really wouldn't know, but everything on this record does sound like I have heard it about four billion, three hundred and seventy-four million, two hundred and thirty-six hundred and six hundred ninety three times before.

The bass is playing something I guess, sometimes even trying to be prominent, but it makes me care about it about as much as those little commercials about black kids in some backwards part in Africa looking for a foster parent do. And the drummer, well, he does his job, but quite frankly, doing one's job as a drummer and providing some generic background beat isn't exactly something to write home about.

That leaves us with what? The vocals and the keyboards? Oh don't get me started. Well, you may get me started on the vocals, because they are about as spending your day watching grass grow, but I guess they are somewhat acceptable on some kind of superficial level. I mean, yeah, they go in one ear and straight out of the other, but they aren't offensive in any way, they just kind of exist and do whatever the fuck it is they are trying to do without ever accomplishing anything of any significance, but I can live with that, I suppose. It's nice. Quite nice. Without substance, but, well, "nice". The keyboards are probably the only thing about this album that remotely approaches something along the lines of being not easy to stomach, but not in an excessive manner, either. They play their nice relaxing tunes as well, and they do sound annoying at times, but they just plod along as well, just doing their nice "lay down on the bed and fall asleep" kind of thing, trying to put you to a very nice and restful sleep.

Every single melody on this album seems either carefully crafted to make you fall asleep very comfortably, or just like something very boring people would think might be exciting. The way it is, it doesn't really matter, it's, well, kind of nice, quite relaxing, but there's absolutely nothing behind it, no creativity, no passion, no emotion, no vision, no workmanship, it just kind of does its thing, you never really pay attention to it, and never really feel the need to do so, either. Just some background stuff you wouldn't mind hearing while being stuck in an elevator, but nothing you'd listen to by your own free choice.


That's a hell of a long way to say, "I found this album very boring. Not really to my taste..."

Not sure who is more sleepy: Droneriot after listening to Pale Folklore or me after reading his review.


Last edited by Pierrepoint on Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:02 pm 
 

That's why it's a review.

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Pierrepoint
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:06 pm 
 

Reign_of_Praine wrote:
That's why it's a review.


Oh, really... is that why?

Most reviews I read manage to express different ideas from one paragraph to the next

That's why we use paragraphs

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BardInTheForest
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:24 pm 
 

I have to agree that I found that to be a rather poor review. I mean, I can kind of understand why he might say that, although I personally enjoy the album, but he doesn't really say anything about the music itself other than it's boring, makes him sleepy, etc. If you'd never heard Agalloch before you'd think that they were an Enya cover group or something.

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Skanky

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:38 pm 
 

BardInTheForest wrote:
If you'd never heard Agalloch before you'd think that they were an Enya cover group or something.


Dude, you are just setting him up for a spike.

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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:24 am 
 

He wrote a review that fits and reflects his views on the music. It's a positive attribute. It's not exactly his finest piece of work but it's certainly good. Especially this bit:

droneriot wrote:
but it makes me care about it about as much as those little commercials about black kids in some backwards part in Africa looking for a foster parent do.
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Bezerko
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:10 am 
 

I found it to be an excellent review, in my opinion it should stay, no questions asked.

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hakarl
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:26 am 
 

Not very informative or descriptive, but gives an idea of the album's biggest problem.
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lord_kexasthur
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:27 am 
 

Bezerko wrote:
I found it to be an excellent review, in my opinion it should stay, no questions asked.


I don't think nuking it was being considered.

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EntilZha
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:18 pm 
 

I agree that it's not my best, but, as I said early in the review, it's not an easy album to write about because there is so little to review.
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saintinhell
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:21 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Not very informative or descriptive, but gives an idea of the album's biggest problem.


Yeah, it could be offered as a thesis of what's wrong with the album for those who have listened to it, but wouldn't serve to guide those who are unfamiliar with Agalloch. I suppose some 'metal' examples instead of Enya would have helped there. I found it a good read but that's again because of the same reasons as you mentioned.

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EntilZha
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:32 pm 
 

saintinhell wrote:
I suppose some 'metal' examples instead of Enya would have helped there.

Comparing Agalloch to metal is like comparing an apple to meat.
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hakarl
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:04 pm 
 

EntilZha wrote:
I agree that it's not my best, but, as I said early in the review, it's not an easy album to write about because there is so little to review.
Sounds like you just have a really strong opinion on it. I don't consider myself anywhere near equal to you as a reviewer, but I could've easily written a more descriptive one.
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lord_kexasthur
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:32 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
EntilZha wrote:
I agree that it's not my best, but, as I said early in the review, it's not an easy album to write about because there is so little to review.
Sounds like you just have a really strong opinion on it. I don't consider myself anywhere near equal to you as a reviewer, but I could've easily written a more descriptive one.


I kind of think it's a really good review. Not that I agree on it ( though that doesn't mean I love the album ; I just listened to the album a couple of times and thought of it as something I would like upon farther listens), the point is that there are a lot of other reviews that try to express how much an album is boring but end up in a complete bash-fest that sounds really annoying. In this review, however, there was a positive tone all throughout, if you get what I mean, which is very appealing for me when reading reviews, even if droneriot didn't intentionally use that "positive tone" for the purpose of making it appeal to more readers.

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