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| Review passages: The good, the bad, and the what the christ https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29824 |
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| Author: | OzzyApu [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:45 pm ] |
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Jarnroth wrote: So long you don't start writing something blasphemous about Mercyful Fate...
Never, Mercyful Fate are awesome. I could never even picture myself writing something bad anymore about MF. |
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| Author: | MercyfulSatyr [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:49 pm ] |
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I'd like to see a DBtO review, Ozzy. |
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| Author: | Jarnroth [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:27 pm ] |
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OzzyApu wrote: Jarnroth wrote: So long you don't start writing something blasphemous about Mercyful Fate... Never, Mercyful Fate are awesome. I could never even picture myself writing something bad anymore about MF. Great! Now I can sleep tight tonight... |
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| Author: | Empyreal [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:46 pm ] |
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But Mercyful Fate themselves are blasphemous, therefore it might fit to write blasphemous things about them. |
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| Author: | OzzyApu [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:13 pm ] |
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MercyfulSatyr wrote: I'd like to see a DBtO review, Ozzy.
DBtO? |
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| Author: | MercyfulSatyr [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:18 pm ] |
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Don't Break the Oath. Empyreal, don't tempt him.
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| Author: | Jarnroth [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:19 pm ] |
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Empyreal wrote: But Mercyful Fate themselves are blasphemous, therefore it might fit to write blasphemous things about them.
They're so inverted and twisted it's not possible to blaspheme about the truth, since their own satanic perverseness would convert anything which is not of positive nature relating to the band into something which is. It's an occult thing. |
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| Author: | Call_From_The_Tower [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:10 am ] |
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OzzyApu wrote: Drudkh is next though, if anyone wants to know.
What album? |
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| Author: | MercyfulSatyr [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:49 am ] |
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I think he said Blood in Our Wells. |
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| Author: | caspian [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:29 am ] |
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Fair enough too, that album really isn't that great (I've already done a 50% of BiOW myself). The IM review on the other hand.. definitely some attention whore qualities coming through there.
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| Author: | Call_From_The_Tower [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:37 am ] |
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MercyfulSatyr wrote: I think he said Blood in Our Wells.
Thought that might be the case, and yeah, that's fairly ridiculous considering he only heard it for the first time the other day. I don't really see how anyone could be in a position to review anything after such a short period of listening to it. But whatever, go ahead Ozzy. |
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| Author: | Byrgan [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:11 am ] |
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MercyfulSatyr wrote: Don't Break the Oath.
Man, I'm still kicking myself. I had a full review written for this some months ago and lost it to a computer crash. |
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| Author: | Acrobat [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:13 am ] |
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Man, that sucks. Your review of Mellisa was ace, I was hoping you'd do one for Don't Break the Oath. I would try myself, but all my attempts have been massive failures when trying to capture that much fanboy ranting about that record. |
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| Author: | MercyfulSatyr [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:16 am ] |
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My review wasn't a problem. |
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| Author: | Byrgan [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:34 am ] |
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ANationalAcrobat wrote: Man, that sucks. Your review of Mellisa was ace, I was hoping you'd do one for Don't Break the Oath. I would try myself, but all my attempts have been massive failures when trying to capture that much fanboy ranting about that record. Oh I can imagine, there's a lot of cool things to add on that album, don't let your head explode. But tssh, thanks man. Ha, I didn't think I would have been able to add another review as the first one. Have you ever done that, put all your ideas in the first one, and then the second album might skimp out? So I instead wrote a short story review, glaringly positive though, so we're on the same page. It sounds lazy and I would have rewritten it by now, but the flow and specific wording was lost with the review, damn. I might be able to put the pieces back together as I remember the story some time down the road. The tone was purposely cheesy in a way, like EC comics or some Hammer films, but I found a way to glide in musical description. Right now I'm trying my hand with that style as of the Melissa review again, I don't know what you call it, overly moody? With one of the full lengths from this band Skepticism. MercyfulSatyr wrote: My review wasn't a problem.
Well, your review was unabashingly positive...and right on target, ha! But the first and second records are side by side for me. What would someone conjure up as a negative Don't Break the Oath review? And let me add as a prerequisate also listen to older 80s bands. |
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| Author: | Acrobat [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:57 am ] |
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Yeah, I've done that quite a lot, actually. Most of the reviews were I've found myself putting out the same ideas on a same band as I previously have wouldn't usually make it here; I've got a lot of half-baked reviews sitting round on computer that won't ever see the light of day. I found myself repeating the same ideas with some of my Motörhead reviews, so I've put a stop to doing any of their stuff lately. Funnily enough, I attempted a sort of story review for Don't Break the Oath - I actually just lost myself with it and was left scratching my head with own review (which is rare for me - I usually simply attempt to confuse others; it works apparently!). Good luck with that MF review, though, if it's as good as the description sounds it's set to be a great read. Hammer Horror references in reviews are always something I enjoy! Hmmm, no money tonight. Think I'll try another Sodom review. It's for one of their fairly different releases so hopefully I won't be repeating myself. |
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| Author: | Byrgan [ Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:58 pm ] |
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ANationalAcrobat wrote: Yeah, I've done that quite a lot, actually. Most of the reviews were I've found myself putting out the same ideas on a same band as I previously have wouldn't usually make it here; I've got a lot of half-baked reviews sitting round on computer that won't ever see the light of day. I found myself repeating the same ideas with some of my Motörhead reviews, so I've put a stop to doing any of their stuff lately. Funnily enough, I attempted a sort of story review for Don't Break the Oath - I actually just lost myself with it and was left scratching my head with own review (which is rare for me - I usually simply attempt to confuse others; it works apparently!). Good luck with that MF review, though, if it's as good as the description sounds it's set to be a great read. Hammer Horror references in reviews are always something I enjoy!
Hmmm, no money tonight. Think I'll try another Sodom review. It's for one of their fairly different releases so hopefully I won't be repeating myself. I think you're right, you have to take breaks it seems. Or just go gung-ho and do them with the intention of all at once. |
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| Author: | MercyfulSatyr [ Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:34 pm ] |
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Byrgan wrote: What would someone conjure up as a negative Don't Break the Oath review?
That's exactly what I said about Altars of Madness. |
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| Author: | Empyreal [ Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:41 pm ] |
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They'd probably call King's vocals annoying and wimpy and the whole thing too chaotic or something like that. Maybe call the songs unmemorable and homogeneous. |
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| Author: | MaDTransilvanian [ Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:18 pm ] |
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There's one thing about GuntherTheUndying's Marduk reviews that I just don't get. He praises La Grande Danse Macabre yet bashes the Obedience EP, which is essentially the same music (one song from the album, Funeral Bitch, is even on the EP). Both reviews are well-written, but this incoherence is bugging me. |
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| Author: | MercyfulSatyr [ Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:17 pm ] |
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For Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk: Nightgaunt wrote: Well, I often hear that the album is "epic." I suppose that would depend on one's conception of "epic." To once again give due credit, Emperor has avoided the pitfall of only playing at one speed on the album…every now and again, they'll lapse into a brief slower section, as in the doomier bit at the tail-end of "Thus Spake the Nightspirit", or that beloved-by-many little spoken bit in "With Strength I Burn." Of course, these slow sections are generally as inept as their more volant counterparts, but it's the thought that counts, I suppose. So, is that it? Is it this vulgar contrast between fast and slow that makes it "epic?" Intense; relaxed; trickle of renewed intensity. Is that it? If so, most of you have probably had bowel movements more "epic" than this.
Well put.
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| Author: | symbolic1188 [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:24 am ] |
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I think that the worst review ever written is Speedemon86's review of Testament's "Formation of Damnation." Remember, you are helping potential buyers. "It's Tetament who cares" is downright laughable. I understand that album is not for everyone, and some have found legitimate flaws. Most, however, simply try to insult the band more than describing the music. At least half the reviews for that album should be deleted. Why not start with Speedemon, because that is clearly the most laughable review I've read. |
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| Author: | symbolic1188 [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:33 am ] |
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Okay, on the second thought, there are far worse reviews. Thing is, I really don't see any reason to give anything less than a 50 or 40. Does stuff that bad actually exist? It would be nice if people tried to describe the music instead of trying to lower the average rating. This site is often times not helpful at all when deciding what to purchase. Here is a question for all to answer me: Who puts effort into reviewing albums, as opposed to being lazy and reviewing bands you are biased against? Why not review bands you legitimately thought you would enjoy for what they are? No more of this "it sucks, this band sucks." It just doesn't bring anything to the table. |
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| Author: | Empyreal [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:39 am ] |
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symbolic1188 wrote: Okay, on the second thought, there are far worse reviews. Thing is, I really don't see any reason to give anything less than a 50 or 40. Does stuff that bad actually exist? It would be nice if people tried to describe the music instead of trying to lower the average rating. This site is often times not helpful at all when deciding what to purchase. Here is a question for all to answer me: Who puts effort into reviewing albums, as opposed to being lazy and reviewing bands you are biased against? Why not review bands you legitimately thought you would enjoy for what they are? No more of this "it sucks, this band sucks." It just doesn't bring anything to the table.
Yeah, stuff that bad exists, and saying stuff sucks can very well bring something to the table depending on how you do it. You review bands you don't like in order to give an opinion and offer a dissent from those who praise it. Why don't you see the need to give anything less than a 50 or 40? That is stupid, I cannot comprehend it at all. |
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| Author: | OlioTheSmall [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:44 am ] |
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symbolic1188 wrote: Thing is, I really don't see any reason to give anything less than a 50 or 40.
Rest of your rant aside, I'm always bugged when people say this. Why have a review scale of 0-100 if anything less than 40 is out of bounds? Your cutting out a whole chunk of the review scale. By your logic, the worst music ever produced would warrant a score of 40% and the best gets 100%. Then why not just make the review scale from 40-100? Those are the two extremes you have dictated. Also, if you don't think that there is music worth 0, you haven't heard 666Satanic Army666. |
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| Author: | symbolic1188 [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:52 am ] |
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The 0-100 scale would be useful if people were reasonable and put more thought into something. There is not much music that falls below a 40. 50 is already a failing score, and should be enough to get the point across. The way that scale is used on this particular site, however, is abysmal. People use scores ranging from 0-40 liberally, with the goal of lowering the average score of a band they may not enjoy. Offering insight as to how the album is flawed is hardly the goal. This is what needs to change. If you go by the scores on the site right now, 90% of the stuff with 20 or more reviews must suck ass. (yeah, now that's realistic.) |
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| Author: | Jarnroth [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:56 am ] |
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Well... 50% is a failure? Is 2,5 on a scale of 5 also a failure, or just a modest record that don't stand out very much? I don't really know if I agree with that notion. |
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| Author: | Empyreal [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:00 pm ] |
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symbolic1188 wrote: People use scores ranging from 0-40 liberally, with the goal of lowering the average score of a band they may not enjoy.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean there aren't still people who do it because they feel that some albums do deserve it. I'd wager that the odds are pretty low that a great amount of people do it to "lower the average," so much as that they're speaking their minds. And no, most of the albums with 20 or more reviews on here are very balanced, I don't know what you're on about. |
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| Author: | Jarnroth [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:01 pm ] |
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Empyreal wrote: symbolic1188 wrote: People use scores ranging from 0-40 liberally, with the goal of lowering the average score of a band they may not enjoy. Yeah, but that doesn't mean there aren't still people who do it because they feel that some albums do deserve it. I'd wager that the odds are pretty low that a great amount of people do it to "lower the average," so much as that they're speaking their minds. Well, I would say the guy giving "In the Rectory of the Bizarre Reverend" 1% probably wanted to do that, aswell as "Lana" on Deathspell Omega's "Fas", or many of Kruel's 0% reviews for that matter. |
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| Author: | failsafeman [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:13 pm ] |
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I think a lot of people who use the REALLY low scores, like 0%, probably are just doing so to make a point, as with Boris's MoP review (to trot out the dead horse example). But that's fine, because honestly the scores are by far the least important part of the review, and no one ought to give a shit about some silly review average anyway. I've often wished the review score were given less emphasis, maybe put at the end of the review, which would also help a lot with the "suspense" factor. It's not very interesting to start out with something along the lines of "there was a lot of hype surrounding this album, but does it live up?" when there's a score of 95% sitting right at the top to answer the question before it's even asked. |
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| Author: | Empyreal [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:20 pm ] |
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Jarnroth wrote: Empyreal wrote: symbolic1188 wrote: People use scores ranging from 0-40 liberally, with the goal of lowering the average score of a band they may not enjoy. Yeah, but that doesn't mean there aren't still people who do it because they feel that some albums do deserve it. I'd wager that the odds are pretty low that a great amount of people do it to "lower the average," so much as that they're speaking their minds. Well, I would say the guy giving "In the Rectory of the Bizarre Reverend" 1% probably wanted to do that, aswell as "Lana" on Deathspell Omega's "Fas", or many of Kruel's 0% reviews for that matter. Yeah, but most of those reviews aren't good anyway, there are lots of lower scores on here that I'd consider very much worthy. I guess there really is a problem with people giving out scores for dumb reasons but that isn't the site's fault, and there's nothing we can do about it. |
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| Author: | wight_ghoul [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:43 pm ] |
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Jarnroth wrote: Well... 50% is a failure? Is 2,5 on a scale of 5 also a failure, or just a modest record that don't stand out very much? I don't really know if I agree with that notion.
A percentage scale and a 1-5 scale come across very differently in practice though, at least in my experience. For example if a movie gets 2/5 in the paper I think of it as perfectly watchable though somewhat flawed; still enjoyable for fans of the actor/director/genre, not a waste of money. The mathematical equivalent of 2/5 is of course 40%. If you get 40% on an assignment in school that's a clear F and you ought to be panicking. So a problem on this site is that a lot of reviewers view anything below 50% as an F. You can see where the above poster is coming from saying that nothing should be lower than 40% or 50% - it's pretty much impossible to get lower grades than that if you actually hand something in, no matter how much of an idiot you are. But if you read a review giving a movie 2/5 it's likely to be pretty mixed, maybe more like a C. An F on this scale is more like a 0/5. I think some viewers see the system more like that. So basically we have a terribly ambiguous system with no guidelines that can be interpreted many ways, leading to much confusion and conflict. At least that's the way I see it. |
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| Author: | failsafeman [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:50 pm ] |
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wight_ghoul wrote: So basically we have a terribly ambiguous system with no guidelines that can be interpreted many ways, leading to much confusion and conflict. At least that's the way I see it.
Yeah, and serious guidelines for scores would lead to much worse conflicts, not to mention cramp reviewers' styles. Ours is the worst system except for all the others we could try. |
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| Author: | ForNaught [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:57 pm ] |
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wight_ghoul wrote: The mathematical equivalent of 2/5 is of course 40%. If you get 40% on an assignment in school that's a clear F and you ought to be panicking. So a problem on this site is that a lot of reviewers view anything below 50% as an F. You can see where the above poster is coming from saying that nothing should be lower than 40% or 50% - it's pretty much impossible to get lower grades than that if you actually hand something in, no matter how much of an idiot you are. But if you read a review giving a movie 2/5 it's likely to be pretty mixed, maybe more like a C. An F on this scale is more like a 0/5. I think some viewers see the system more like that.
This gets even more confusing when you realise that not every country uses the same grading scale-- for instance, here in Ireland, in school 40% isn't an F at all, but a very bare pass (a D-). There's no real consistency at all. I personally try to ignore the score where I can, but it's pretty hard to forget the glaring grade at the top of a review if you're trying to pay heed to the writing only. |
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| Author: | wight_ghoul [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:02 pm ] |
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failsafeman wrote: wight_ghoul wrote: So basically we have a terribly ambiguous system with no guidelines that can be interpreted many ways, leading to much confusion and conflict. At least that's the way I see it. Yeah, and serious guidelines for scores would lead to much worse conflicts, not to mention cramp reviewers' styles. Ours is the worst system except for all the others we could try. Well I've always been a fan of not having an official system at all, myself. Would solve some problems such as those mentioned by ForNaught above. Of course it wouldn't appeal to the instant gratification types, but I always thought that's what this site was more about. |
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| Author: | failsafeman [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:57 pm ] |
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To be honest I can't say I'd be against it. Reviewers who like numerical ratings could always put them in their reviews if they want to. Still, I doubt such a large change is in the cards. |
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| Author: | caspian [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:17 pm ] |
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definitely coming out in defense of the score here. I think it's a great summation of the review; I mean damn, for something with 20-odd reviews I really don't want to have to read through every review to get a full opinion. The scores should stay; they're not terribly hard to affix to a review, and if you don't want to look at them, then don't. They can't be that hard to ignore. |
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| Author: | failsafeman [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:27 pm ] |
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Ideally the way I'd put it would be make the score field optional, so those that wanted to (most would) could add scores, those that didn't wouldn't have to. I'd probably only decide to remove the scores from a couple of my reviews at most. For me it's not a question of whether or not review scores are useful (they certainly can be), it's a question of allowing reviewers certain liberties with style. I know some reviewers really hate the numerical score system. Anyway, this is all farts in the wind, as nothing is likely to change at this point. |
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| Author: | symbolic1188 [ Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:46 pm ] |
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I think some of you are over thinking this. There is not a ton of ambiguity here. How do I know this? Well, just look at the writing. These albums that are getting poor scores are backed by nonsense from someone who hated the band before they heard a single note. These records that get 1/5 or 2/5 (20 or 40 PERCENT respectively) aren't given a fair shake. That is a poor argument. While they are equivalent mathematically, the two express very different viewpoints in terms of quality. To say that people aren't trying to say that the particular album is terrible is misinformed at best. I am not saying that there is not stuff out there that warrants a 40 or below. I simply feel it is ludicrous that such scores are often thrown at immensely talented bands and good albums. In short, save it for when it is actually necessary. If not, I suppose I should check out every band I hear of, because you can't get any profound insight here. |
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| Author: | Nightgaunt [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:15 am ] |
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In other words, like so many before you (and doubtless, so many who will come after), you're having a bit of difficulty handling a "difference of opinion", and would like to see some of the offenders either effaced or officially discredited. Yes, that seems simple enough, to me. Easy to follow. Problem being that this sort of argument, which presupposes things like "X was predisposed to dislike Y before he even heard it, and this means that his review is invalid" has a natural complement of "X was predisposed to love Y before he even heard it, and this means that his review is invalid." If "bias" is the problem, one must understand that bias does not magically cease to be bias when it elides a positive sentiment rather than a negative one. Along this line of reasoning, the most passionate positive scores are no more valid than the most vitriolic negative scores, and both ought to be prohibited or discredited. This, of course, would be an absurd, unreasonable, and unduly censorious policy; the same holds true for the opposite end of the scale. "Subjectivity" and "difference of opinion" and "diversity of viewpoints" are all as fine as frog hair until someone comes along and has the audacity to say something mean about a band that one likes, yes? Be that as it may, it is a cross that your generation has elevated to the status of Holiness, and it is one that you must bear. |
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