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Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1256
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:38 am 
 

kluseba wrote:
The only thing I have always disliked is the culture of cyber-bullying with threads such as ''Crappy Diem'' and recurrent comments such as ''Failed reviewers need discouragement, not encouragement'' that are simply wrong.

It's actually quite unbecoming of reviewers criticizing albums right and left to think of feedback as an instrument of bullying. :rolleyes:
Some reviewers, once incompetent, will probably prove to be worthy of everyone's admiration someday, hence eventually prove Zodi's statement to be simply wrong. However, until that day comes, staffers aren't supposed to babysit novices, whose command of the language is at its minimum, or help them build their self-esteem by allowing the Archives to become a receptacle for their junk.
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dystopia4
Thumbman

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:42 am 
 

Calling it cyberbullying is a bit melodramatic. Sure, I suppose there can be a bit of hazing towards noobs now and again, but for the most part criticism (even presented in an unfriendly way) helps reviewers improve. I personally am very grateful for the criticism I have received as it made me aware of problems I didn't know I had.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:44 am 
 

The statements about discouraging new reviewers sounds harsh, but honestly yeah, this isn't supposed to be some kind of pre-school atmosphere where the mods hold your hand and walk you through everything. If people are getting personally insulted by the mods for submitting reviews, that's one thing, but honestly anyone who wants to be a writer needs to deal with rejection and try to improve themselves rather than going on rants against the mods for not letting them submit reviews to a free online metal site...I can see where Dia and Zodi are coming from on that much, and in that regard I can see an argument for really tightening the ways reviews are accepted.
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Zodijackyl
Definitely Proportionate

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:33 pm 
 

Pulled from the Crappy Diem thread, this is the type of review where hand-holding and editing won't make a review acceptable. This is the type of review where we can't and shouldn't try to help with borderline illiteracy and handle what usually takes a few years of education to make up for. This review ended up in the queue four times.

Image

That's a failed reviewer who needs discouragement. You can tell, at a glance, that this writer is not capable of producing a properly edited review, nor even proper sentences. Writers need to be able to refine their own works to competence.

Throw the baby out with the bathwater, sure. Just reflexively kick back baby's first Metallica review and make them edit it. Point out one problem, and they'll find two. For example, I would've sent this back for the obvious typo in the first paragraph, along with a note to look it over and try to organize the points better.

http://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/M ... _79/343812

Sure, we could just edit it, but then the next review will have the same problems. I did the same thing several with Metal_Thrasher90 until his reviews were consistently edited and proofread, at which point I brought him up for scribing. I picked up the habit of sending back reviews and making the reviewer fix them, rather than editing them myself, from Nightgaunt. Worked quite effectively.

Also, just nuke shitty troll reviews like this. We are under no obligation to accept them.

http://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/M ... tal/154628

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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Location: The Land Down Under (no, not THAT one)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:07 pm 
 

That's a pretty extreme case though, and it's easier to see where you're coming from when presented with something like that. The absolutist way in which you worded your ''failed reviewers need discouragement, not encouragement'' statement sounded like anyone who fails to present a decent review on their first try should be told to fuck off.
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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
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Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:12 pm 
 

Gotta agree mostly with Zodi on this last post here. MA doesn't have a hand holding or coddling atmosphere so why should it extend that to the reviews? Especially when they are such a prominent and public feature on the site (I'm gonna stress again, as many of us have multiple times already, doing away with the reviews would be a really shitty thing). You already have a place for people to seek help with their reviews and it's ultimately up to them to use that feature if they can't write anything up to snuff. As a somewhat frequent poster in the workshop I never coddle. I've flat out told people to stop trying and put their reviews on Amazon. I'm all for repeated rejections until people can figure it out.

It just sucks for the mods that people can't grasp the fucking fact that MA has standards and they need to be adhered to. I'll never understand why people think they can throw up a half assed, broke English shit box of a review and have it be acceptable then get butt hurt when it isn't. And yes I think reviews for bands like Metallica should fall under extreme scrutiny. If you're reviewing something so fucking prominent and it already has 20+ reviews then I had better cream my shorts while reading it or it shouldn't be accepted.
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kluseba
Making Metal Archives Reviews Great Again!

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:36 am
Posts: 601
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:41 pm 
 

Obviously, it's neither black nor white and there are always exceptions. I agree that reviewers like the one quoted above shouldn't be encouraged. They shouldn't be discouraged either. Once you see that there is no improvement and that they start to get personal, they should simply be ignored. I'm not sure if it helps to give such an angry reviewer extra attention by posting his review in different threads without his permission. This will only provoke more extreme reactions. It would even be legitimate if he felt insulted by this because most users come to the ''Crappy Diem'' thread to have a good laugh.

In the case described above, I can understand that this user was maybe even looking for negative attention but posting a review of someone who obviously isn't fluid in English and used for example a lot of Spanish expressions and sentence structures in the ''Crappy Diem'' thread isn't fair and such a reviewer should rather be encouraged than ridiculed by others. Threads that talk about bad reviews or the worst reviewers aren't constructive like some people seem to claim but mostly tend to mock people. If somebody needs feedback, there is a thread for this or it can be done via private messages but the fact that some users absolutely need to criticize any review or reviewer they don't like as some do in this thread is absolutely not constructive.

What I mean is that many reviewers have their flaws in the beginning and most of their first tries were rejected but they were encouraged to continue and improve their writing style and ultimately succeeded. Many of my first reviews were also rejected for legitimate reasons and I read the comments, worked on a few things and ultimately improved. If I had just been told ''I discourage you to contribute to our archives'', it would have been much too harsh. Dealing with reviews requests a lot of patience and diplomacy and not harsh overreactions.
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dystopia4
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Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:00 pm 
 

In response to your post, I echo the sentiment "if you want to be a writer, you have to have thick skin and accept that you will be criticized". If you put your writing into public view, there is a good chance that people may have bad responses (especially if the writing is bad). I don't think we should be straight up dicks about it, but there's nothing wrong with having a good laugh at a bad review. Someone who really cares will endure even if mocked and learn from the criticism even if harshly worded.
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Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:02 pm 
 

Erosion of Humanity wrote:
I'll never understand why people think they can throw up a half assed, broke English shit box of a review and have it be acceptable then get butt hurt when it isn't.

Because people only see what they want to see, Erosion. If what I've read is true, and people do actually spend hours on a review, don't you think they'll be blind to see any fault with their newborn, having had to endure hours of labor? ;)
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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:07 pm 
 

I strongly recommend that some of you start consider saving your reviews (if you want to retain them) because there are going to be some rather large changes coming down the pike in the next week or two.

I'm proposing a method that will allow all standing reviews to be sent to the email attached to the site profile in some sort of compressed text file or something.

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Napalm_Satan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:09 pm 
 

Oh shit, things are going down. I guess that answers this debate then.
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Diamhea
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:10 pm 
 

I'm proposing that as a solution. I'm not the final say on the matter.

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Lich Coldheart
Stares into the Void

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:44 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:40 pm 
 

Diamhea wrote:
I strongly recommend that some of you start consider saving your reviews (if you want to retain them) because there are going to be some rather large changes coming down the pike in the next week or two.

I'm proposing a method that will allow all standing reviews to be sent to the email attached to the site profile in some sort of compressed text file or something.

If my reviews get deleted then may they be lost forever. They have been written especially for this site so there's no purpose in saving them if they are not good enough for MA. Anyway, you made me curious about those changes...
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Napalm_Satan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:46 pm 
 

In the event that this does take place, don't bother e-mailing my reviews to me, since I have all of mine saved already.
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into_the_pit
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Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:40 pm
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Location: Hedonist Occupation Government
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:54 pm 
 

kluseba wrote:
I can only add to this that most of my mates consult the website in order to discover new music through reviews and forums. If you took away either, it would definitely have a negative impact on the site. Even extensive biographies can never replace detailed reviews exposing different points of view. Those who say that reviews nowadays are worse than back in the days should check some of those old track-by-track wall of text reviews or the numerous, vapid rants which are rarely longer than ten lines that were published back then. I have tons of respect for the moderators of this site and encourage them to continue and I would even offer my help for specific issues. The only thing I have always disliked is the culture of cyber-bullying with threads such as ''Crappy Diem'' and recurrent comments such as ''Failed reviewers need discouragement, not encouragement'' that are simply wrong.


I don't really care about the whole reviews issue because I trust my eyes and taste more than anyone else's, but, being professionally experienced in writing and proofreading, I have to say that last statement holds true. some people just write so badly or simply cannot translate their listening experiences or judgements into written text that it's just not worth the time and hassle. neither for the reviewer, nor for the mod nor other users giving advice nor anyone else involved. thereare hopeless cases indeed.
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Last edited by into_the_pit on Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:47 pm 
 

Napalm_Satan wrote:
Oh shit, things are going down. I guess that answers this debate then.


It was only a matter of time, especially since some folks had to keep on pushing it.
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Dudemanguy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:55 pm 
 

There's always archive websites and the like, so it's not like your reviews would be gone forever if you forget to save them.

I'm actually kind of motivated to rewrite some older things now.
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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
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Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:16 pm 
 

Antioch wrote:
Erosion of Humanity wrote:
I'll never understand why people think they can throw up a half assed, broke English shit box of a review and have it be acceptable then get butt hurt when it isn't.

Because people only see what they want to see, Erosion. If what I've read is true, and people do actually spend hours on a review, don't you think they'll be blind to see any fault with their newborn, having had to endure hours of labor? ;)


It usually takes me a few hours to write a review I'm happy with, that's why I don't write a great deal of them. I'll listen to the album in question a good four or five times and then site down to write. Sometimes it goes quick, sometimes not. I'll listen to the album the whole time (at least once more through) so that can take a while also.

That's my process. I've had reviews rejected and they deserved it. I didn't throw a tantrum over it, just realized the review sucked balls and went back at it. People just need to chill. I do think that there could be a little less callousness though. Do away with posting shit reviews and leave the rejections behind closed doors unless the user is coming forward for help.

I guess it doesn't matter in the end though if what Diamhea is alluding to is true. It will be a sad fucking day for MA if they purge and do away with reviews altogether. I seriously hope it doesn't come to that as so damn many people, trusted users at that, have offered to step up and pitch in to help out. Oh well. I've said all I can and my opinion doesn't really matter.
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Zodijackyl
Definitely Proportionate

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:07 pm 
 

edit: oops, didn't realize that wasn't a public list/link.

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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 5596
Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:20 pm 
 

Can't access that page.
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OzzyApu
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:18 pm 
 

Been reading what's happening. Sucks if that intends on being the final outcome. Understand both sides, but I'm one of those people who doesn't write anywhere else (amazon? :lol:). Was about to get back into reviewing but guess that'll never happen.
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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:56 pm 
 

man, w/review modding- really does strike me that there's plenty of dudes here that would be pretty suitable for a "half mod" job. A lot of us long time reviewers could likely approve 1 or 2 reviews a day, and enough of us are sensible enough that we wouldn't just be approving stuff we agree with. I think the reviews are a huge part of MA! Sure they're subjective but they're really fun to read and more often than not tell you what you need to know about an album. And to alude to what someone else mentioned, without indepth bios on most bands they're often as close as you're going to get regarding context with a band, the story about a band, what they did, how they begun, how they changed and so on and so forth. Hugely important to the site.
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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
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Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:40 pm 
 

I dunno. Everything Diamhea is saying here he's said before, many times over too. Other people, mods included, have brought up doing away with reviews before. I've seen Diamhea post screen shots of people actually threatening him before too, he wasn't lying about that. It just makes me sad that the reason I even found MA in the first place might be going away. Like I said I implore the staff to come up with some kind of resolution other than axing them. MA would feel soulless without reviews and it would do a serious blow to the community that brings in so many people. Without reviews I'd wager the site wouldn't have grown to what it is today.... fuck. Don't do it.
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Zodijackyl
Definitely Proportionate

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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Location: Longmont Potion Castle
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:14 pm 
 

We've been pretty lenient on the troll/gimmick reviews in the last few years, especially with regulars, but some of these need to go. As a reminder:

Quote:
In summary:
Don't send troll reviews, i.e. reviews written pretty much solely for the purpose of attracting attention and/or riling up others.
Avoid "gimmicky" reviews (trying too hard to be original in your format, such as writing in the form of a poem, a story, a mock-interview, etc.), unless you're an exceptionally gifted writer.


UltraBoris wannabes (including TWO fucking reviews of Master of Puppets from the last month alone) as well as RageW's Death reviews and a handful of others have been removed. More to come.

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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
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Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:52 pm 
 

Yeah I don't think anybody is going to complain about that, save for the idiots who wrote them. And that goes back to the whole single purpose mod thing from earlier. There's 10's of 1,000's of reviews on this site and scouring them all would be a damn near impossible task for the current staff. But if you had a handful of trusted users with the ability to get in there and help it would make a huge difference.
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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:35 pm 
 

there's likely a few exceptions but I figure if you're scribed - trusted to just put reviews up- then I don't see why you couldn't also be "employed" as a reviewer of newly submitted reviews too. Would be fairly easy to implement (I think?)? Just a little bit o' code?
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:18 am 
 

That really is one of the main problems. Bad spelling, grammar, etc is one thing, but the propensity of troll reviews written in these ridiculous manners just to try to stand out. It isn't about talking about music, it's about the reviewers themselves in those cases, trying to show off how cool they are. I think that just needs stricter moderation on those big classic albums that sometimes attract ludicrous reviews.
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Zodijackyl
Definitely Proportionate

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Location: Longmont Potion Castle
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:29 am 
 

I must say, no matter how frustrating reviews can be, there's nothing like the band queue to give you a laugher. Just stumbled upon this:

https://tumulododiabo.bandcamp.com/trac ... go-cover-2

Sorry, that doesn't meet our digital release standards so y'all can't review it. :(

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DoomMetalAlchemist
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:10 am
Posts: 1639
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:25 am 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
I must say, no matter how frustrating reviews can be, there's nothing like the band queue to give you a laugher. Just stumbled upon this:

https://tumulododiabo.bandcamp.com/trac ... go-cover-2

Sorry, that doesn't meet our digital release standards so y'all can't review it. :(


Love the Algerian font on the cover. I used that all the time for my school paper titles in junior high.

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OzzyApu
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:11 am
Posts: 10291
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:47 am 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
UltraBoris wannabes (including TWO fucking reviews of Master of Puppets from the last month alone) as well as RageW's Death reviews and a handful of others have been removed. More to come.

Which makes this review by drummerboy make no sense now for new readers. Not only that, but he wrote it specifically as a reaction to the Napalm review (now gone).

Image

Which now that I'm reading, may / may not be against the rules?

Image
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Thiestru
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:45 am 
 

So for about 14 years, reviews were no problem, and now all of a sudden they are? I'd be curious to see how the absence of reviews affects site traffic. I really, really hope that deletion of the reviews function of this site isn't implemented, as that would eliminate a good bit of this site's usefulness. Many people have volunteered to help out with the review queue. I hope that's under consideration.
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Rosenthorn
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:51 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:04 am 
 

Please don't delete (serious) reviews on this site. Part of my daily routine after dinner is coming here, seeing what albums I enjoy have been reviewed, and reading the reviews, seeing what I agree and disagree with. I think it not only creates a way for people to speak their opinion on a review, but also gives people like myself a source of entertainment as well as a way to learn more about metal (perhaps through comparisons or historical contexts given). I don't know the statistics, but I'd hazard a guess that the number of people like myself far outnumber the actual reviewers. Having reviews on a large, well laid out site like this as opposed to a myriad of smaller sites not only makes this easier for people, but it also gives us a simple way to write and publish our own reviews, if we get inspired to do so. I don't think I would bother writing a review if it were on a personal blog that would get 10 views a month, but now I know that whenever someone wants to look up Savatage's discography here, they are only a click away from reading my opinion on The Hall of the Mountain King, and maybe by reading it they will gain something, like I have done from countless reviews on the site.
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Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:51 am 
 

Rosenthorn wrote:
Please don't delete (serious) reviews on this site . . . I know that whenever someone wants to look up Savatage's discography here, they are only a click away from reading my opinion on The Hall of the Mountain King, and maybe by reading it they will gain something.

Like Zodi said, "Throw the baby out with the bathwater". That's what the purge is all about: no compromises, no second chances.
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:43 am 
 

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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 7548
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:34 pm 
 

^ excellent lyrical choice
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Spoiler: show
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║░▒║with this blade
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║░▒║Carly Rae Jepsen
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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 7625
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:07 pm 
 

Rosenthorn wrote:
Please don't delete (serious) reviews on this site. Part of my daily routine after dinner is coming here, seeing what albums I enjoy have been reviewed, and reading the reviews, seeing what I agree and disagree with. I think it not only creates a way for people to speak their opinion on a review, but also gives people like myself a source of entertainment as well as a way to learn more about metal (perhaps through comparisons or historical contexts given). I don't know the statistics, but I'd hazard a guess that the number of people like myself far outnumber the actual reviewers. Having reviews on a large, well laid out site like this as opposed to a myriad of smaller sites not only makes this easier for people, but it also gives us a simple way to write and publish our own reviews, if we get inspired to do so. I don't think I would bother writing a review if it were on a personal blog that would get 10 views a month, but now I know that whenever someone wants to look up Savatage's discography here, they are only a click away from reading my opinion on The Hall of the Mountain King, and maybe by reading it they will gain something, like I have done from countless reviews on the site.

Yeah certainly no point visiting the site daily anymore, just when needed.
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Lich Coldheart
Stares into the Void

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:44 pm
Posts: 972
Location: Frozen dead land where sharp winds blow
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:29 pm 
 

I think I'm gonna get outta here... for good!

MA... Image
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Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1256
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:50 pm 
 

Wouldn't it be a better idea if you started writing decent, detailed biographies instead? I mean, seriously, is that where your loyalty stems from? Reviews?
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Grave_Wyrm
Metal Sloth

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 3858
Location: FML States of America
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:22 pm 
 

Antioch wrote:
staffers aren't supposed to babysit novices, whose command of the language is at its minimum, or help them build their self-esteem by allowing the Archives to become a receptacle for their junk.

Well put. I definitely would like to see a rise in the minimum standards for acceptance. Grasp of the finer details of English wouldn't even bother me if the personal reflections and musical description were worthwhile. I'd even edit a review like that myself, if that were the case, because it would actually be worth the effort. I can't, but I would.
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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 7625
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:39 pm 
 

Antioch wrote:
Wouldn't it be a better idea if you started writing decent, detailed biographies instead? I mean, seriously, is that where your loyalty stems from? Reviews?

Yes, if a site is partly based on a community element, a lot of people come for that. That's why a lot of people quit last.fm when they completely did away with the community element.
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