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CloggedUrethra
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:30 am
Posts: 458
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:16 pm 
 

Download: MA Songwriting Challenge XVIII - Riff Salad.zip (35 MB)

Tracklist:

1) alexaons - Simply Walk Into Mordor 2.0 (2:48)
2) KFD - I tend to get nervous with girls (but having sex calms me down [when I do]) (2:17)
3) Nostril Caverns - The Effects of Child Birth (7:21)
4) Nostril Caverns - Lawnmower Girl (2:52)


Well, the XVIII'th songwriting challenge on metal-archives is now finished. The participants this time are alexaons, KFD, and myself. The tracklist was sorted by submission date. Feel free to listen and post your thoughts/reviews.

See you next challenge!
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 13213
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:58 pm 
 

I'm downloading mainly to listen to yours. but I'll listen to the other ones.


1) Alex- Nice something like 10-14 riffs if you could alternations of the main part of riffs. but it still sounded like a good solid song. I didn't really think riff salad when I heard it but i enjoyed it. sounds like you cut it short and that's disappointing. sounded like there was at least another 3 mins to transverse. and ashame you didn't put on any vocals.
2) KFD... a riff salad is having 5 riffs in a 2 minute long song? Fuck then I blow you out of the water with all the material I record. 5 riffs that all fit and work with each other (something you didn't quite achieve) is a normal song for me. When I think riff salad and with 2 minutes.. I think there will be around 20 riffs in here at the very least.
3.)Clogged- just what I expected. can always appreciate your writing and playing. really reminds me of the band Aislinn from North Carolina. Similar guitar sound and approach to stream of conciousness playing. And thanks for throwing the vocals on. I think if you had some more typical vocals for this it would really rip up.
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Apteronotus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 961
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:44 pm 
 

1.) Simply Walk Into Morder 2.0 - I liked the tone on this, just murky enough before things get soupy. This song managed to be very cohesive without treading over the same territory repeatedly and the higher notes kept it from becoming another indecipherable and forgettable low-end trek. This style would benefit from some tempo changes too in order to avoid that same issue. I agree that it sounds like you cut it short, really awkward ending for sure.

2.) I tend to get nervous... - This felt really repetitive and while I can appreciate a dirty style, the riffs were pretty bad, except for the cool penultimate riff, and none of them tied together with their neighbors. More specifically, the melodies were extremely short, which made it hard for any riff to have much identity and made the song sound like a short series of warm-ups. Felt like parts of other riffs - more punky than black metal in that regard, which I'm not a fan of.

3-4.) The Effects of Child Birth & LAwnmover Girl - I don't know how I hadn't listened to Nostril Caverns before, but these were interesting. More vocals and more prominent vocals would have helped tie these up - not that the riffs were entirely all over the place but it felt a little naked even with all of the busy riff work. The varied chords were a nice change of pace from what I usually listen to and I appreciated how parts would retain certain similarities to lend focus to the songs. Really sharp and tight playing, and the synth parts were a smart and subtle way to hide some simple progressions under the chaos that kind of became a wash after a bit, maybe a rhythm guitar would help instead of piling on more vocals.
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Arkhane
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 1803
Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:30 pm 
 

Simply Walk Into Mordor
Simply put, it was awesome! I love the crushing speed of the tempo. Although the abrupt ending leaves a lot to be desired, the song as a whole was very consistent and well put together. Well done! I feel like I not only walked into Mordor, but I witnessed the entire Uruk-Hai army throw Frodo, Sam, Gollum, and themselves into the pit, which was then proceeded by the Fellowship moshing with swords and nuclear warheads. The drums sound like Acoustica Beatcraft drums, are they not?

I Tend to Get Nervous with Girls (But Having Sex Calms Me Down [When I Do])
At this point in time, I feel I have experience the best this competition has to offer, and the worst. This song (much like the title) was very inconsistent, and it felt like the writer took rejected riffs from other songs and compile them. There were some pretty decent licks in here, but the song itself wasn't very entertaining. Also, I have an issue with the same riffs being used 8+ times when the guidelines specifically state NOT to repeat riffs. I could deal with maybe 2 or 4 bars being repeated, but anything over struck me as a cheap shot to add filler instead of sitting down to write more material.

The Effects of Childbirth
It definitely could use some more low end from the bass, which I am not sure exists or not. This is a very panicky song, lots of random jumps to and fro. The atmosphere can be a little enjoyable to those who are into technical death or tech-prog, but it just gets really manic a lot of the time, but then soon after it attempts to soothe itself. You could almost call it Bipolar tech metal, HAHA :lol: Some of the riffs are pretty enjoyable, but a song of this nature really shouldn't stretch itself out as long as it did.

Lawnmower Girl
Starts off the same as Childbirth. Still some good riffs among the really strange bipolar stuff. The lyrics are just as manic as the songs are, in my opinion. However, this song doesn't stretch the length like the last one did, which is really nice. I feel for such a panicked atmosphere, this is probably the appropriate length of a song. I gotta give you an A for effort on these two songs. Not executed very well, but the work was shown and it's quite impressive.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:44 am 
 

Great, 2 guys who weren't able to hold their promises try to assassinate my work as a kind of cyber-reprisal against me for telling disturbing truth to them. Ever heard about objective criticism?

That's exactly how capitalist democracy works: allowing a few idiots to yell out their contradictory uncultured nonsense, while ignoring or censoring honest workers who worked hard to produce something.

I'm just asking: what's the point of participating in such conditions? What's the reward?

We were supposed to be 9. We are only 3. Are we thanked for our work? Are we thanked for keeping our word until the end?

No we're not, as usual, the best get smashed by the mediocre masses.
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alexaons
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:13 pm
Posts: 290
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:53 am 
 

Dude, you can't be serious? Of course there is no reward, we did it for the fun of it. And what about that inappropriate capitalist rant? If you get mad over something as insignificant as this, your life must be really hard to live.

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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:57 am 
 

Creation is not fun. Poetry is not fun. Art = transcend suffering.

Spending a whole evening only to record the click with tempo changes is not insignificant! Such despise for the value of work depresses me.

If you just want to have fun, go skateboarding or surfing... or go watch a movie, at least there's even no effort to display.
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alexaons
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:13 pm
Posts: 290
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:07 am 
 

I am actually having fun doing it. Sad for you that it must « transcend suffering ». I dont « despise » the value of work. I have bigger fish to fry, more important issues to deal with than getting mad over a songwriting challenge on a internet metal forum.
Life is good, cheer up dude.

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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:08 am 
 

Hey KFD. You are an idiot.
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somefella
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 3131
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:14 am 
 

KFD wrote:
Creation is not fun. Poetry is not fun. Art = transcend suffering.

Spending a whole evening only to record the click with tempo changes is not insignificant! Such despise for the value of work depresses me.

If you just want to have fun, go skateboarding or surfing... or go watch a movie, at least there's even no effort to display.


Here's you again pretending your 'art' actually requires effort. There's a reason why you are universally regarded on this forum as a delusional clown. It's not as if this is the first time that you've received (very objective) criticism over your 'work' (i wouldn't use that term).

EDIT: And again, "record the click with tempo changes" is not easy but it's far from being a manifestion of Vivaldi as you seem to keep saying. Almost any musician worth a damn can do so with ease. Try checking some of them out someday.
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Syntek
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Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:14 pm
Posts: 651
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:35 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
Creation is not fun. Poetry is not fun.


I'd call myself a competent songwriter and author - hell, check my thread just below this for examples, in fact.
Composition and poetry is a very enjoyable process for me and my best work has always been the easiest to write. Crazy, huh.

Still, expect some thoughts and criticisms on these when I have the time, guys.

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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:26 pm 
 

THEMICRULAH wrote:
Hey KFD. You are an idiot.
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NoKnownName
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Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:39 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:31 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
Creation is not fun.

What about sex? That counts as creation, right?
KFD wrote:
Such despise for the value of work depresses me.

Just because something took a lot of work to do it doesn't mean that the end product is any good.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 13213
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:21 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
THEMICRULAH wrote:
Hey KFD. You are an idiot.



That which is stated and restated rings true. You are simply a stupid little boy with delusions that anything you do is of any value to anyone.

You did something, yay for you. If this was the extent of what was expected I could've still created something like you did in literally 20mins and that means taking the time to record each element. the actual writing would've been 5mins. I didn't do that cause I rather create something meaningful and isn't throw away bullshit.

Just because you created something does not mean you get a honorary participation ribbon like in the special olympics. You are supposed to act your age, which means not throwing a fit when someone gives you constructive criticism on your "work" (used loosely here). Grow up. You are regarded as a joke and no one will ever take you seriously with the attitude you take to everything.

I'll mix down the album I was working on last month in about 3 weeks and you can see how much actual work there could be to be placed into something. A single song of that has more riffs than you have created in your entire mediocre discography.
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Apteronotus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 961
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:36 pm 
 

Just to clarify, since I'm being accused of retaliatory feedback, I strive to make all of my feedback based on the music I'm listening to rather than to do any kind of reprisal. Granted, I'm a human being and have subconscious biases like everyone, but my thoughts on music don't deliberately stem from what I think about its creator(s). KFD, if you want to know what I think about your forum conduct you can pm me for my thoughts on that and compare it to how I evaluated your music and see which comes out more favorable.
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Arkhane
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 1803
Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:34 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
Great, 2 guys who weren't able to hold their promises try to assassinate my work as a kind of cyber-reprisal against me for telling disturbing truth to them. Ever heard about objective criticism?

That's exactly how capitalist democracy works: allowing a few idiots to yell out their contradictory uncultured nonsense, while ignoring or censoring honest workers who worked hard to produce something.

I'm just asking: what's the point of participating in such conditions? What's the reward?

We were supposed to be 9. We are only 3. Are we thanked for our work? Are we thanked for keeping our word until the end?

No we're not, as usual, the best get smashed by the mediocre masses.

Did you really have to bring this stupid shit here? Until I read your other post 5 minutes ago, I literally had nothing against you. Now, I hope you stop making music forever if this is your mentality. Fuck off! That kind of mindset has no place here.
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CorpseFister
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Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:07 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:37 pm 
 

I propose everyone put him on ignore. It will be like a collective banishment, then we can all get on with the business of making music and not being giant turds about it.

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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:54 pm 
 

I've had him on ignore for a long time. I only click display post when he goes through a big hissy fit like this so I can join in with the fun.
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Arkhane
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
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Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:58 pm 
 

CorpseFister wrote:
I propose everyone put him on ignore. It will be like a collective banishment, then we can all get on with the business of making music and not being giant turds about it.


Probably the wisest thing any of us have said today.
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alexaons
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:13 pm
Posts: 290
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:58 pm 
 

Back on topic, the Nostril Caverns songs were pretty good. It really was a riff salad, shows great musicianship, although I was not a fan of the raspy vocal (the lower one was good though). Well done, sir.

Btw, I must be honest, I may have cheated on this challenge. Few weeks ago I recorded a bunch of riffs just for the fun of it. I had a few drum beats and decided to improvised a few riffs over it. I saw there was a songwriting challenge 2 days before the end of it, so I sent my track. I was too lasy to record a proper ending, sorry guys.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:46 pm 
 

Oh I have him on block already but sometimes I can't help seeing what idiotic things he has to say.



alexaons, go finish that motherfucker with a proper ending and some vocals.
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CloggedUrethra
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:30 am
Posts: 458
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:19 am 
 

Thanks for listening/reviewing you guys! I'll post my reviews soon. And yeah, no worries about participants not submitting. As has already been said, people have their own bands and jobs, etc.

Btw, I taped myself recording one of my songs (I wanted a video to show for session work), so I thought I'd post it:

Youtube: show
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:53 am 
 

Very awesome. i really enjoyed the video. so thanks for throwing that up for viewing.
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themicrulah
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:23 am 
 

Damn I can't wait until I have a drum set so I can do stuff like that.
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somefella
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:57 am 
 

Cool shit dude, I especially liked watching the drumming hahahah
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Arkhane
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Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
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Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:00 pm 
 

You have some very interesting chords, Mr. Urethra. I love when a band or artist shares studio footage.
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TheOldSkull
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Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:24 pm
Posts: 64
Location: Brittany
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:39 pm 
 

alexaons - Simply Walk Into Mordor 2.0
Very modern, good production values and execution. Somehow lacks the wtf effect I was expecting from a riff salad mashup. Granted, there are several riffs but the chord progression and tempo sounds like it's the same all over. Hmmm, don't know, it's really well done, with vocals it would be even better, but I'm slightly disappointed.

KFD - I tend to get nervous with girls (but having sex calms me down [when I do])
Something really different, like black metal from the 60's or something, oh well. Actually there is not much repetition riifwise (only the last one that has been played before) maybe guys your judgement on his music was clouded by what you think on the person(a). Still too cohesive a song to be really qualified riff salad IMO, but I must say I really liked it.

Nostril Caverns - The Effects of Child Birth
Nostril Caverns - Lawnmower Girl
I really disliked this, couldn't even make it to the end, unbearable after a hard day of work. That said, I think it fits the bill very well, even though you could have gone even further in the wtfery. Well, I think you won this challenge hands up.

That's it, looking forward to next challenge, hoping it's more inspiring for me, so that I can participate this time.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:22 pm 
 

No, my basis of his work is based completely on his work. But hell you obviously have a different tastes than us cause universally we liked Nostril Caverns.... you didn't so maybe it's just a matter of taste. Never thought about that before have you?
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TheOldSkull
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:04 pm 
 

Oh yeah sure it's a matter of taste. Taking a second look at what I've posted, I realize I sound like a total dickhead. Thing is, yeah, I strongly dislike such genres as djent, metalcore, mathcore, even most of what's called technical death metal.

I have strictly nothing against CloggedUrethra, he's a talented musician and seems like a decent guy. In previous challenge I appreciated and praised his work a lot, this time I think he succeeded again, in a genre I don't like at all. That's what I wanted to express, but I failed, thanks for pointing this out to me.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:07 pm 
 

No problem. There's no bias when reviewing work here. Just wanted to make sure that was pointed out. So all is good and carry on the good works.
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Commandaunt
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:31 am
Posts: 572
Location: Bolivia
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:37 pm 
 

Damn dudes, 2/4 of the songs are lacking vocals and there were three guys who signed up to do guest-vocals? :/ To be completely honest, I didn't enjoy any of these thoroughly. Alexaons had awesome production, but the instrumental wasn't quite interesting enough to warrant it being an instrumental (Though, it could've been an awesome song with some vocals and/or ear candy!). KFD's started good, sounding like it was gonna go into Midnight territory with some aggressive black/thrash, but really didn't go anywhere exciting, lacked creativity and had a really lame solo - definitely required vocals as well. For Cloggedurethra's, I'm in the same boat as OldSkull - I dont't enjoy the genre he chose to use and overall, it wasn't in the realm of anything I'd typically enjoy listening to. On top of that, I disliked the vocals muchly, as I usually do with your tracks, but that's not even really something worth commenting on. Objectively, however, I can tell that it was a good song and those that like this sort of music will see the appeal - solid production and definitely understood the meaning of "Riff Salad". Really appreciated the video you threw up as well - watching you play it was a lot more interesting the song itself, that's a lot of shit to remember!

Hate to be full of negativity here, but I just wasn't a fan of anything in this challenge! Let's get another one going soon that's easier for people to participate in, akin to the black metal challenge :)

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 13213
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:54 pm 
 

We might want to chill on the challenges till like the last two months of the year. The participation is dwindling and even I'm getting too busy with other bands and business to devote the time I used to be able to this.
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CorpseFister
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Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:07 pm
Posts: 2623
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:22 pm 
 

Yeah I agree with SLK. I haven't been active in the challenges lately and there have been some good ones, but doing them too often seems to hamper participation.

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Arkhane
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 1803
Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:04 am 
 

Not only that, but themes start to run thin.

And about my distaste for KFD's song, I had stated that I had no quarrel with him until the day after I wrote my review. I didn't really like how none of the riffs went together, and I also didn't think it followed the idea of a riff-salad very well at all. At least CloggedUrethra's riffs were so wild they tangled together in a sort of metaphoric spaghetti bowl. KFD's riffs, on the other hand, had a different backbone for each riff and came off as more of a pair of conjoined horses trying to swim.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:05 pm 
 

Ok, sorry for the previous off-topic rant, I'm glad to read recent posts about reviewing instead of the countless personal attacks.

CloggedUrethra, after briefly watching your video, I can say I don't like your song, since of course I don't like mathcore. Don't you distinguish "mathcore" from "riff salad"?

By the way, I'm gonna ask you a question. Imagine you were a label manager and you wanted to press a CD compilation. What would you do if 2/3 of the self-announced participants cancelled their participation one day before the timeline?
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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:43 pm 
 

KFD, you're supposed to be making music for yourself above all others. If you get that upset over people not participating in some little contest that's just for fun, you should probably re-evaluate why you're making music to begin with. I make music every single day, 90% of it never gets heard by anyone. I absolutely *love* what I do and wouldn't stop for anyone. So why should it matter that much?
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:35 pm 
 

It's not about music, it's about keeping one's word.

If you're only playing music for yourself, there's absolutely no point in participating in some little contest.


I gave a brief listen to the 2 other contesters' songs.
Alexaeons's song is quite OK in a modern death-doom vibe, despite the synthetic drum programmation. The riff variation is not striking, the guitars seem more to be waving around a central theme.
As for CloggedUrethra, I don't like the style. The drums could have been more technical and less varied.

I still like my song best, even if the production is not optimal, but considering this was recorded with a PC and a single mic, it's still good.

I really expected some prog metal or something a la Melvins, but I probably overestimated the boardmembers' musical abilities (ah ah).

Come on, you can throw shit now.

(Expect about 3 or 4 haters' posts full of bullshit)
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Arkhane
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 1803
Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:46 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
It's not about music, it's about keeping one's word.

If you're only playing music for yourself, there's absolutely no point in participating in some little contest.


I gave a brief listen to the 2 other contesters' songs.
Alexaeons's song is quite OK in a modern death-doom vibe, despite the synthetic drum programmation. The riff variation is not striking, the guitars seem more to be waving around a central theme.
As for CloggedUrethra, I don't like the style. The drums could have been more technical and less varied.

I still like my song best, even if the production is not optimal, but considering this was recorded with a PC and a single mic, it's still good.

I really expected some prog metal or something a la Melvins, but I probably overestimated the boardmembers' musical abilities (ah ah).

Come on, you can throw shit now.

(Expect about 3 or 4 haters' posts full of bullshit)

My music is also used with a PC and a single mic, so that's no excuse.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 13213
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:18 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
The drums could have been more technical and less varied.




You give absolutely no thought to the words that you type. Completely and utterly devoid of any thought.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 9053
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:11 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
It's not about music, it's about keeping one's word.

If you're only playing music for yourself, there's absolutely no point in participating in some little contest.


I gave a brief listen to the 2 other contesters' songs.
Alexaeons's song is quite OK in a modern death-doom vibe, despite the synthetic drum programmation. The riff variation is not striking, the guitars seem more to be waving around a central theme.
As for CloggedUrethra, I don't like the style. The drums could have been more technical and less varied.

I still like my song best, even if the production is not optimal, but considering this was recorded with a PC and a single mic, it's still good.

I really expected some prog metal or something a la Melvins, but I probably overestimated the boardmembers' musical abilities (ah ah).

Come on, you can throw shit now.

(Expect about 3 or 4 haters' posts full of bullshit)


No, it's not about keeping one's word or music or any of that. I'm talking about an overblown response to something that is really a non-issue. It's fine to be a little miffed about folks not participating when they said they would, but the appropriate reaction goes something like this "Oh, well that sucks." and you just move on. :lol:
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