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BelialSpeaks
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:19 pm
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:28 pm 
 

Mortician uses a lot of movie intros in their songs. Just have a listen to this album for example. Is it actually illegal to do this? Could they be sued over this? Does it also make a difference if they play live? Same with this grindcore band I remember seeing live. They played some porn during their live shows. Is this also illegal? Also adding that they potentially displayed porn to minors. Also in terms of copy rights infringement, does this affect them? When the pandemic is over and live shows are back, I am considering using some footage from movies and so on and projecting them in live shows. Would I be doing something illegal?

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SweetSilence
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 pm
Posts: 525
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:26 pm 
 

I believe samples can be up to 30 seconds in length without having to worry about copyright infringement in the case of things like this, although I might be slightly off and it might depend exactly on what you're using. You should be fine. You might even be able to skirt by making an "original collage of sounds." Either way, the risk you are taking is miniscule.

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DeadKid
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 330
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:56 pm 
 

SweetSilence wrote:
I believe samples can be up to 30 seconds in length without having to worry about copyright infringement in the case of things like this

That's not true. Mortician may have gotten away with it by sticking to obscure horror movies from the 70s or something like that. If they sampled a short but very recognisable line from a blockbuster, they'd be far more likely to get in trouble. A famous one is when Fun Lovin' Criminals requested permission for the Tarantino samples on Scooby Snacks. Tarantino's lawyers were able to negotiate their way into a big portion of the royalties and even a writing credit for the song.

The risk depends on where you use it and whether you're well-known. If it's only live shows or small-run recordings not distributed to Apple, Spotify & YouTube then almost certainly nothing will come of it. I've seen a bunch of live shows with movies projected too and I'm sure no payments were made for that. Though if the sample is music before/after a performance, eg. a Monty Python song playing after Iron Maiden's set, then it's probably covered by the venue's licence.
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BelialSpeaks
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:19 pm
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:59 pm 
 

DeadKid wrote:
SweetSilence wrote:
I believe samples can be up to 30 seconds in length without having to worry about copyright infringement in the case of things like this

That's not true. Mortician may have gotten away with it by sticking to obscure horror movies from the 70s or something like that. If they sampled a short but very recognisable line from a blockbuster, they'd be far more likely to get in trouble. A famous one is when Fun Lovin' Criminals requested permission for the Tarantino samples on Scooby Snacks. Tarantino's lawyers were able to negotiate their way into a big portion of the royalties and even a writing credit for the song.


Is there a kernel of truth to that statement though? Or is it just something he got out of nowhere?

DeadKid wrote:
SweetSilence wrote:
The risk depends on where you use it and whether you're well-known. If it's only live shows or small-run recordings not distributed to Apple, Spotify & YouTube then almost certainly nothing will come of it. I've seen a bunch of live shows with movies projected too and I'm sure no payments were made for that. Though if the sample is music before/after a performance, eg. a Monty Python song playing after Iron Maiden's set, then it's probably covered by the venue's licence.


Hmm ok, and how does it apply to movies and clips? Do the same rules apply? I'm not going to play movies with their original audio, but rather as part of my music videos projected with a beamer or something like that, while I play the music. Also, I am obviously not using entire movies, but rather short clips and fragments combined with footage I made of my own.

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DeadKid
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 330
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:37 am 
 

The 30 second thing is a common myth. Sometimes it's claimed to be 15 seconds for films. Usually what people are trying to get at is 'fair use'. Which would be an effective defence in court if you used the clip for something like a review or a documentary, not so much if you transformed it into your own work like you're talking about.

For music, the myth may be related to how iTunes and Amazon etc. had 30 second samples free to hear on their websites and almost certainly didn't pay royalties for those, but that's a case of hearing the artist's content as credited to them, not as part of anyone else's derivative work.

BelialSpeaks wrote:
Hmm ok, and how does it apply to movies and clips? Do the same rules apply?

It doesn't. I didn't say anything about a rule that applies to movie clips. I'm saying you can almost certainly get away with it without worrying for live shows. At least if you're not playing arenas.
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yentass
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:28 am
Posts: 914
Location: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:20 am 
 

Well, there is a thing called "de minimis defense", so it might not be entirely a myth (30 seconds is probably waaay too much, to be honest).

But no, there's no law I'm aware if that allows you to use others' IP without permission, only possible defenses in case you're sued.
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DeadKid
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 330
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:29 am 
 

It's certainly a myth that there's any law giving a particular number of seconds. I did read that some radio stations have entered into agreements allowing them to play 15 seconds of a song for free, but the rest of us aren't part of those agreements.

As I hinted at, perceived damages depend more on how recognisable the sample is. 30 seconds of miscellaneous sound effects and screams as in Mortician's case is relatively trivial, but 2 seconds of a famous line such as Arnie saying "I'll Be Back" are not.
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Hexenmacht46290
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
Posts: 371
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:18 am 
 

DeadKid wrote:
…2 seconds of a famous line such as Arnie saying "I'll Be Back" are not.


I’ve heard a lot of heavy/doom metal songs, sampling his line, about crushing one’s enemies, seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentation of the women. And they have digital and physical distribution. Are they just getting away with it, because they’re obscure and have 100 downloads on Bandcamp?
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DeadKid
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 330
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:03 am 
 

Yeah, just getting away with it I'd say. Not that risky if you're not well known as I said in my first reply, but YouTube distribution could be a factor. I dunno how often their system identifies short audio samples like that for the rights holders or what thresholds are built in, but it's there looking for something. I guess it could be tested before deciding to use a particular audio clip on a studio recording. I have a 21 second upload of two video clips from The Wire and there's no copyright claim on it, but it's the only short example I have.
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