Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
Commisaur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:16 am
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:48 pm 
 

It seems like most amp sim guitar tones I hear tend to be "metallic, shrill and digital" sounding. I can't say I've ever heard an amp sim produced guitar tone that sounds like the albums I listed below. Case in point, I have watched countless videos on YouTube of people testing out amp simulators and their tone always sounds
"metallic, shrill and digital" sounding.

For all the various times when I listened to the original recorded material of musicians I had either met in real life or online through Craigslist or Reddit, I've noticed that all these guys have the same exact "metallic, shrill and digital" guitar tone that I mentioned in the above paragraph regarding those YouTube videos reviewing amp sims. Basically no one ever sends me a recording that has a guitar tone that sounds like the guitars from Suffocation - Effigy of the Forgotten. And this isn't a genre thing either because it doesn't seem to matter if the band/musician/bedroom project that is sent to me is raw Black metal going for a raw guitar tone or a tech death project going for crisp squeaky clean guitar tone, all these entities across all genres have the same "metallic, shrill and digital" guitar tone except the difference being one is trying to be raw and distant sounding and the other is crisp and in focus sounding.

So anyways for my desired amp sim tone I want to sound like the guitars of the following albums listed below. I don't know how one would describe this guitar tone production. A bottom/bass heavy, slightly fuzzy, warm and sludgy guitar tone? Anyways, its definitely one of my favorite. If I were a real band in a studio and I needed to show the sound engineer/producer examples of my desired tone/sound I would show them these albums. Is there a technical name for this type of guitar tone and production that seems to span all of the different extreme subgenres of metal of the late 80s and 90s and is it possible to get this guitar tone using an amp sim? Here are the examples:

* Suffocation: Effigy of the Forgotten
Spoiler: show

* Disgorge: Cranial Impalement
Spoiler: show

* Black Sabbath: Master of Reality
Spoiler: show

* Eyehategod: Take as Needed for Pain
Spoiler: show

* Sodom: Persecution Mania
Spoiler: show

* Sleep: Jerusalem
Spoiler: show

* Assuck: Anticapital
Spoiler: show

* Disastrous Murmur: Rhapsodies in Red
Spoiler: show

* Dispatched: Blackshadows
Spoiler: show

* Baphomet: The Dead Shall Inherit
Spoiler: show

* Bolt Thrower: Realm of Chaos
Spoiler: show

* Varathron: Walpurgisnacht
Spoiler: show

* Enthroned: Towards the Skullthrone of Satan
Spoiler: show


Basically everything that Scott Burns worked on between 1989-1991 has the sludgy guitar tone that I am describing (with the odd exception being Obituary's Slowly We Rot album that mysteriously sounds unlike anything else he worked on during that era as it has a more metallic/percussive sound).

Side question:

The following question I assume is more of a sound engineering/mixing/mastering question...is it possible to get the overall sound (I'm referring to all instruments as a whole) of my bedroom project to sound like the aforementioned albums I listed above? Basically I don't want people to hear the final product of my material, after its been mixed and mastered, and think "oh this is a one man band bedroom project" or even "oh this just sounds like some run of the mill local band in the studio..." I want it to sound like a real band as much as possible, but not only that, I want it to also have the same sonic caliber or "quality" of sound as a "big" classic band from that era. I know we could probably be getting really subjective here but there just really seems to be a big difference between a studio album from a nobody small/local act compared to a release from a "big name" band. I'm not even referring to the timbre of the drums or the tone of the guitar here anymore. Take say Sodom's Persecution Mania album from 1988 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oHO5AeDXJM) and compare it to say Witchaven's Terrorstorm album from 2010 (https://witchaven.bandcamp.com/album/terrorstorm-2). Most people, even laymen who know nothing of these two bands or even about metal, would say Witchaven has a smoother more modern sound, but will also probably say that Sodom sounds more professional and official sounding and is the "bigger" band and probably spent more money in the studio and probably went to a renowned studio to make their album at that. Likewise any new releases coming out today from big name extreme metal bands with old school or modern origins will likewise just have a "atmosphere/sound" on their album that instantly distinguishes it from albums from unknown local acts and bedroom projects. Even like a new release from Megadeth or Metallica (bands I abhor save for early Metallica) will just have that "sound" to it that some nobody local band or bedroom project could not hope to ever match. Am I just babbling away or is this a real thing? If such a difference exists between the album sounds of a big name band versus a small nobody act, what do I need to do to get to the same album production caliber as a big name act? Would this require me to go to a physical studio to have my DI guitar tracks mixed? Would the studio have a large library of amp sims that they could apply to my clean DI tracks and tweak for me as well? Or is it an unavoidable requirement that in order to get the "big name" band sounding sound I would have to record my guitar in the studio with mic placed against loud real amp and work with an expensive producer like Bob Rock?

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:05 am 
 

Modern amp emulators that run as plugins or hardware units like an Axe-FX are perfectly suited for what you're looking to do. But they are products of their time: they are set up by default to make modern sounds. They use modern-sounding impulses and often emulate modern classic amps like the 5150/6505 or Mesa Rectifier. This is in stark contrast to what all those bands that came through Morrissound in the 90s were using, which was probably not too far off from a Metal Zone, a Crate solid state head, and whatever 4x12 cabinet they could find. So you'll want to keep that in mind so you can stay away from stuff that's set up to sound modern, or at least know how to un-set it up. The first thing to do is find a different impulse. Not sure if you know what an impulse is, but in short it's a capture of the acoustic character of a speaker/microphone/cabinet combination. The impulse used in a virtual guitar rig is probably the single greatest factor in determining what it sounds like. Change the impulse, you change everything. If you don't want to sound modern, don't use modern impulses that are marketed as being modern sounding or are labelled as "mix ready". Don't use anything that looks like it might be a Mesa cabinet or a Vintage 30 speaker. Look for a collection of impulses that were, say, recorded with a Marshall 1960 cabinet with G12T-75 speakers in it, which is probably what a lot of 90s metal bands used simply because it was the most common and well-known cabinet. Getting different impulses is the biggest thing you can do to your guitar sound, so find a bunch. Or, if you can afford to spend some money, get a cheap Crate amp and a cheap crappy 4x12 to match. Hardware recording is a valuable skill as well.

Most of all, know your equipment, software and hardware, and know what every part of it sounds like and how it can be combined and manipulated. And don't get hung up too much on imitating other bands. It'll never happen because you're not those bands, in the studio in that moment. No one's ever going to match the guitar sound exactly from Effigy of the Forgotten because it was simply recorded in a different time. There was no Internet to disseminate recording practices, and extreme metal was still kinda new, so everyone tried to record it in a different way with different equipment. This resulted in far more varied guitar sounds than what you'll hear today, because thanks to the Internet and Andy Sneap's Ultimate Guitar subforum, recording practices and equipment in modern metal have kinda become homogenized. You'll probably arrive at a guitar sound you love by accident. So keep experimenting.

There is one piece of virtual amp software that I recommend that offers a significant degree more experimentation than other common stuff like Neural DSP: NI Guitar Rig. It's got a modular structure, emulations of far more amps than just a 5150 or Rectifier, and a huge selection of cabinet impulses and microphone combinations and positions. I use it as my main amp emulator software and it can do pretty much anything I want it to. At least in the amp department. If I want a different impulse I can just turn off the built in cabinet and use an impulse loader and one of the many impulses I've found/created.
_________________
King_of_Arnor wrote:
I really don't want power metal riffing to turn into power metal yiffing any time soon.

Top
 Profile  
Commisaur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:16 am
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:03 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Modern amp emulators that run as plugins or hardware units like an Axe-FX are perfectly suited for what you're looking to do. But they are products of their time: they are set up by default to make modern sounds. They use modern-sounding impulses and often emulate modern classic amps like the 5150/6505 or Mesa Rectifier. This is in stark contrast to what all those bands that came through Morrissound in the 90s were using, which was probably not too far off from a Metal Zone, a Crate solid state head, and whatever 4x12 cabinet they could find. So you'll want to keep that in mind so you can stay away from stuff that's set up to sound modern, or at least know how to un-set it up. The first thing to do is find a different impulse. Not sure if you know what an impulse is, but in short it's a capture of the acoustic character of a speaker/microphone/cabinet combination. The impulse used in a virtual guitar rig is probably the single greatest factor in determining what it sounds like. Change the impulse, you change everything. If you don't want to sound modern, don't use modern impulses that are marketed as being modern sounding or are labelled as "mix ready". Don't use anything that looks like it might be a Mesa cabinet or a Vintage 30 speaker. Look for a collection of impulses that were, say, recorded with a Marshall 1960 cabinet with G12T-75 speakers in it, which is probably what a lot of 90s metal bands used simply because it was the most common and well-known cabinet. Getting different impulses is the biggest thing you can do to your guitar sound, so find a bunch. Or, if you can afford to spend some money, get a cheap Crate amp and a cheap crappy 4x12 to match. Hardware recording is a valuable skill as well.

Most of all, know your equipment, software and hardware, and know what every part of it sounds like and how it can be combined and manipulated. And don't get hung up too much on imitating other bands. It'll never happen because you're not those bands, in the studio in that moment. No one's ever going to match the guitar sound exactly from Effigy of the Forgotten because it was simply recorded in a different time. There was no Internet to disseminate recording practices, and extreme metal was still kinda new, so everyone tried to record it in a different way with different equipment. This resulted in far more varied guitar sounds than what you'll hear today, because thanks to the Internet and Andy Sneap's Ultimate Guitar subforum, recording practices and equipment in modern metal have kinda become homogenized. You'll probably arrive at a guitar sound you love by accident. So keep experimenting.

There is one piece of virtual amp software that I recommend that offers a significant degree more experimentation than other common stuff like Neural DSP: NI Guitar Rig. It's got a modular structure, emulations of far more amps than just a 5150 or Rectifier, and a huge selection of cabinet impulses and microphone combinations and positions. I use it as my main amp emulator software and it can do pretty much anything I want it to. At least in the amp department. If I want a different impulse I can just turn off the built in cabinet and use an impulse loader and one of the many impulses I've found/created.


Thanks for the advice it was all really informative and helpful. I'm definitely not going to be recording actual hardware(?) like with putting a mic up against a real amp. I really want to stick with the amp sim recording method.

And I see what you mean by not trying to get too focused on copying other bands, but do you know how I can get a sound as "big" as Effigy of the Forgotten album? That album and many others like it just seem to occupy more "sonic space" when you are blasting them out of speakers. I feel like a lot of album recorded metal coming from small local bands or bedroom projects has a "flat" sound to it like the Witchaven album I linked. A perfect example of the this "flat" sound is Cryptopsy's None So Vile album, which has even been described with that exact word by the band members themselves in interviews. Everything sounds tiny, weak and without power. It almost seems to be border line Mono panned compared to Effigy which just surrounds you and makes car stereos and speakers rumble. I guess with the albums that have the "big" sounds the mixer guy in the studio turned up the dial on all the bass frequencies? Because there's a ton of bass in the Effigy. I'm not talking about simply being able to hear the bass notes (because None So Vile has a lot of audible and technical bass guitar work) I'm talking about how the car stereo will just vibrate, rumble and shake from blasting Effigy whereas with None So Vile you just get harsh nail on chalk board frequencies without any car vibrations when you blast that one. Effigy has never hurt my ears no matter how loud I blast it (it has a soft, dull, murky, "thud" to it) whereas the "flat" albums are shrill and have harsh frequencies when played really loud.

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:43 pm 
 

With Suffocation in particular, it's a very scooped guitar sound with a lot of bass. Guitar tones such as that one are almost extinct in modern metal because 1) the gear has improved, 2) industry trends, 3) it's easier to make a mids-heavy guitar sound heard in a dense mix. With such a scooped guitar sound as on Effigy of the Forgotten, the "vocal" frequencies are taken out to the point where it's sometimes hard to tell what note they're playing. The bass has a boost, the treble probably has a boost too. It's sometimes called a "v-shaped" sound because that's what the EQ curve looks like. In person, if you're in the room with the amp, it sounds like a really big sound, but on a recording you gotta turn it up more than a mids-heavy tone for it to be heard. I made a recording with my own live amp and cabinet setup to show what I mean. https://drive.google.com/file/d/11PLEhNGNK39x47ZNrXJM8uAKRymKSWyY/view?usp=sharing

Another thing about the Suffocation tone is there's a couple breakdowns in the second song where I can hear that there are actually two guitar tones - one very scooped and bright, and one less scooped and bright. And there are two hard-panned tracks of each. Might have been different microphones used to record two pairs of tracks, or one guitarist might have had the darker tone and the other might have had the brighter tone. So you might could try mixing two guitar tones in that way, or just try making a very scooped and bass heavy tone and see if you like it. Bear in mind that whatever you record is probably going to sound different in a full band mix, and might need adjustments as such. Sometimes it's easier to build the guitar sound to fit the mix instead of the other way around.
_________________
King_of_Arnor wrote:
I really don't want power metal riffing to turn into power metal yiffing any time soon.

Top
 Profile  
mike40k
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:27 pm
Posts: 412
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:26 pm 
 

I've found with Amp Sims, one of the biggest factors in the overall sound is the cab impulse you use. Ugritone makes a pack of impulses that mimic a lot of classic DM tones. Might be worth checking out: https://ugritone.com/products/usa-death-metal-ir-pack
_________________
Fell Deeds - Crust tinged black metal: https://felldeeds.bandcamp.com

Top
 Profile  
ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 13320
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 pm 
 

Assuck used Ampeg VH140c
Suffocation used Ampeg VH140c
Eyehategod used Ampeg SS150H

as far as if you can get the same sound... sorta but it will never be spot on. A lot of the sound of those albums and most that you have listed are a lot from the equipment used cranked in a room recorded live. Just sorta how it is. I don't know much about sims nor really cared since I have the amps and the space to crank and record them live.
_________________
I just do more stuff than you ever will.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group