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Commisaur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:16 am
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:04 pm 
 

The style I am most interested in learning is the Tuvan Kargyraa style which is all about the deep tones. I don't really care that much about the Tuvan Khoomei or Sygyt styles. If at the very least I could have the proficiency that Nature Ganganbaigal from Tengger Cavalry had, than that would be sufficient to me. Not looking to become a master of the style, which I heard is unrealistic anyways given its difficultly

And in particular I want to find a tutor that I can meet with once a week for like an hour either in person or over Skype. I really need this to help establish some foundation to work with and build off of as I've tried so hard to try to get some semblance of the style down on my own by Googling for instructions online and by watching YouTube videos, but all I end up being able to produce is just a humming/coughing sound which also kind of hurts my throat. All of the text based instructional information is pretty identical across all the websites I've found. They all seem to copy the advice given on the Wikihow article for throat singing. Most of the YouTube videos trying to demonstrate and teach this vocal style are pretty bad too. The guys in these videos are not very skilled either and instead sound amateurish like me.

Conversely in all of the throat singing videos were the individual is from the regions of the Central Asia where throat singing is traditionally practiced, the individually obviously sounds amazing and professional, but these guys are just performing and none of them are making tutorial videos! Maybe I could somehow get a hold of their social media contact information maybe they would do Skype lessons for a fee? I'm assuming language barriers could be an issue as I don't know how to speak Central Asian languages or Russian.

And while I am well aware of that Kuular guy from YouTube and his tutorial videos, these videos are just short previews serving as advertisement to his paid content which are just pre-recorded videos. I really want a tutor that I can Skype with or meet in person

None of the music stores, rehearsal spaces, and music lesson businesses near where I live offer Mongolian throat singing lessons either. There doesn't seem to be any Mongolian/Tuvan "cultural centers" where I live where either

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coupdebleus
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:11 pm
Posts: 280
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:47 pm 
 

You don’t need a specialist in the style, any professional singing teacher (i.e. not a dude doing a side-gig halfway through the conservatory, someone with experience both in technique and the science of the voice) will be able to guide you.

Depending on how well you handle your voice (have you taken any kind of singing lessons before? do you practice often?), you could start digging into the specifics of the technique after some months of prepping, and acquire some basic proficiency over the course of a year. A good, healthy sound will probably be closer to the two-year mark.
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Commisaur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:16 am
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:52 am 
 

coupdebleus wrote:
You don’t need a specialist in the style, any professional singing teacher (i.e. not a dude doing a side-gig halfway through the conservatory, someone with experience both in technique and the science of the voice) will be able to guide you.

Depending on how well you handle your voice (have you taken any kind of singing lessons before? do you practice often?), you could start digging into the specifics of the technique after some months of prepping, and acquire some basic proficiency over the course of a year. A good, healthy sound will probably be closer to the two-year mark.


Really? I spoke with several professional singing teachers who work at brick and mortar type music lesson businesses and they told me that they would be unable to help me. How would these teachers with no experience, or even familiarity in the style, get me to produce the sounds of Mongolian Throat Singing which entails producing two notes simultaneously by vibrating certain parts of your throat that one does not normally even use? I find it hard to image how they could help me

And no, I have not taken any singing lessons before. I've only made a few amateurish do-it-yourself attempts to throat sing and to do harsh metal vocals, all attempts which hurt my throat. It makes sense what you say about developing a foundation for healthy vocalizations, but I really want to learn this all from a throat singing specialist as well. I'm sure the foundation they would give me would be far more relevant and applicable than the foundation provided by teacher well versed in more Western/popular styles of singing

And lastly, even if I did acquire some proficiency with the basics of singing I doubt I would then be able to figure out how to Mongolian Throat Sing just from reading the WikiHow article or watching a YouTube video. I would still need help and guidance

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:09 pm 
 

Commisaur wrote:
Really? I spoke with several professional singing teachers who work at brick and mortar type music lesson businesses and they told me that they would be unable to help me. How would these teachers with no experience, or even familiarity in the style, get me to produce the sounds of Mongolian Throat Singing which entails producing two notes simultaneously by vibrating certain parts of your throat that one does not normally even use? I find it hard to image how they could help me

Two things: 1, professional singing teachers who work at academic institutions or conservatories are probably not likely to give you advice on things they can't prove are safe or don't have a history of research behind them. It's why no accredited pedagogical institution has, say, a contemporary pop singing course of study or a metal scream course of study, because those styles of singing are known to not be kind to the voice and prior research suggests that they are inherently damaging. Nobody wants to be responsible for teaching that to people and having it be damaging, unless they think it's not damaging somehow or haven't gone through a course of study for it. I actually did some research on throat singing for a paper I wrote for a community college class last year and there's a similar atmosphere around it. 2, the people who throat singing is endemic to often consider it to be really culturally important and unique to them, to the point where they believe that no one else can properly perform it. It's a long shot but maybe that's why you seem to have trouble finding people who want to teach it?
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pyratebastard
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:05 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Pacific Northwest US
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:23 pm 
 

Mongolia.
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coupdebleus
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:11 pm
Posts: 280
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:08 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Two things: 1, professional singing teachers who work at academic institutions or conservatories are probably not likely to give you advice on things they can't prove are safe or don't have a history of research behind them. It's why no accredited pedagogical institution has, say, a contemporary pop singing course of study or a metal scream course of study, because those styles of singing are known to not be kind to the voice and prior research suggests that they are inherently damaging. Nobody wants to be responsible for teaching that to people and having it be damaging, unless they think it's not damaging somehow or haven't gone through a course of study for it. I actually did some research on throat singing for a paper I wrote for a community college class last year and there's a similar atmosphere around it. 2, the people who throat singing is endemic to often consider it to be really culturally important and unique to them, to the point where they believe that no one else can properly perform it. It's a long shot but maybe that's why you seem to have trouble finding people who want to teach it?


I’m obviously not referring to teachers at traditional conservatories, the curriculum there is geared towards a very specific style.
Just to give an example, I’d say that Berklee’s program for MT, or EMPA’s popular singing career fit the category of contemporary popular singing in accredited
institutions.

The kind of throat singing OP’s referring to is produced in the same way sub-harmonic singing is, by combining vocal fry with regular phonation. Both techniques dutifully investigated in how to produce healthily. Neither which OP knows how to do, so he’d be better off focusing on getting down the basics first.

If you’re interested into reading research into this kind of techniques (everything from sovt to fry and screaming), check out Guzmán’s papers:here’s a list.

Spoiler: show
“In a study aimed to assess a group of metal singers who engage in growl voice and/or reinforced falsetto, Guzman et al12 found that these techniques do not seem to contribute to laryngeal disorders. Perceptual, acoustic, functional, and laryngoscopic assessment showed no major alterations in most of the participants. Moreover, no significant differences in voice and laryngeal evaluation were found when comparing these metal singers with other CCM singers who do not use neither growl voice nor reinforced falsetto.12 Recently, in a study conducted to multidimensionally investigate common vocal effects in experienced professional CCM singers, laryngeal structures of all singers were found to be healthy in spite of using vocal effects such as growl voice and vocal distortion over many years.5”


There are more resources by other authors, but not in English (mostly ES, IT); if you’re fluent in any other language and interested in reading more, lemme know and I’ll try to find them for ya.

Commisaur wrote:
Really? I spoke with several professional singing teachers who work at brick and mortar type music lesson businesses and they told me that they would be unable to help me. How would these teachers with no experience, or even familiarity in the style, get me to produce the sounds of Mongolian Throat Singing which entails producing two notes simultaneously by vibrating certain parts of your throat that one does not normally even use? I find it hard to image how they could help me

And no, I have not taken any singing lessons before. I've only made a few amateurish do-it-yourself attempts to throat sing and to do harsh metal vocals, all attempts which hurt my throat. It makes sense what you say about developing a foundation for healthy vocalizations, but I really want to learn this all from a throat singing specialist as well. I'm sure the foundation they would give me would be far more relevant and applicable than the foundation provided by teacher well versed in more Western/popular styles of singing

And lastly, even if I did acquire some proficiency with the basics of singing I doubt I would then be able to figure out how to Mongolian Throat Sing just from reading the WikiHow article or watching a YouTube video. I would still need help and guidance


You’re trying to learn an extended technique, you won’t get there if you don’t know how to handle your instrument first. To use the guitar as an analogy, it wouldn’t matter if you just want to learn how to sweep pick to shred like a mofo and nothing else, you don’t get there before learning how to strum your basic campfire chords.

The foundation is the same for everyone, you need to learn how to use your natural voice properly, regardless of what your final goal might be, and for that, any good teacher will be able to set you in a good path. Worry about the specifics once you get there.
And no, please don’t try to learn from online articles written by God-knows-whom.
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Neurological Outsourcing
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:10 pm
Posts: 32
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:13 am 
 

Hey, if you're not able to find someone to formally tutor you, you're welcome to send me a reply/message and perhaps I can point you in the correct direction.
I'm able to do subharmonics and overtones. My control is not as good as your reference material (of course, they have thousands of hours of practice and I have a passing interest in this, and as such likely three orders of magnitude less practice) but even then, I'm moderately sure my undertone technique is the same as, or failing that, adjacent to, that which is used for dag kargyraa. I can technically do undertones and polyphonic overtones simultaneously, though it requires a bit of fiddling to "find" it each time, and I do not have strict pitch control over my overtones yet.

You might also be interested in a technique I've found which I have not seen anywhere else. It's like a turbo version of kargyraa, where instead of taking modal voice and relaxing it into the subharmonic, I take a fairly unaugmented false fold distortion and add my modal voice (at the correct pitch relative to the relative pitch of the false fold) and it creates an undertone amid a wall of other happenings. I found this like a month ago and haven't brushed it up too much but I can do it on demand.

So yeah I'm not gonna take your money and hop on Skype or anything, not proficient enough to consider myself a proper tutor, but in case you can't find someone, you've got this random guy on a forum (me) offering to listen to a recording of your attempts and possibly tell you what you're doing wrong.
Cheers :)

p.s. You can use the same technique to do an undertone on a falsetto note (and then carry it down through your passaggio and into modal), and the overtones are actually pretty simple formant shifting (doing them on top of another technique is the difficult part). Honestly it might be easier to learn the control in falsetto, though I learned it in modal and carried it up later. Have you tried doing this stuff?

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Belastbar
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:43 am
Posts: 76
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:02 am 
 

Check out https://anna-maria-hefele.com/

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:22 pm 
 

I figured out how to do it on my own just by fucking around.
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widow_mine
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:28 pm
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:34 pm 
 

not sure if you're on instagram, but extreme vocal institute (david benites) comes across my feed a lot and they go into false chord technique. they seem pretty knowledgable and might be a good fit?

https://www.extremevocalinstitute.com/

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