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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:31 am 
 

who else here lisens to this masterpiece of a genre i discoverd it bout 2 months ago when i was browsing through my grandmas music collection and i saw this album that caught my eye it was of course Alcest's Souvenirs d'un Autre Monde and i haven't looked back since she has also showed me other wonderful shoegaze classics like Amesoeurs's Ruines Humaines now get posting kids

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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 4386
Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:49 am 
 

Terrible, terrible "genre" with little use, barely even deserves the "metal" label. Worse are bands claiming to be "black metal/shoegaze."

Shoegaze is a fine genre, metal is a fine genre, the combination is not. In conclusion, I blame the crossing of the two completely on the French and will continue to use it as justification of my hate of said country and it's horrific language.

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Snowgrave
Under The Plaintive Sky

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Posts: 2332
Location: U.S.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:54 am 
 

Bezerko wrote:
Worse are bands claiming to be "black metal/shoegaze."

Pretty sure that's the only kind there is, and what he was referring to.
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Last edited by Snowgrave on Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:54 am 
 

thats a bit ironic coming from a Cuban.


Last edited by c3p0 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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eternal_sin666
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 209
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:55 am 
 

Bezerko wrote:
Terrible, terrible "genre" with little to know use, barely even deserves the "metal" label. Worse are bands claiming to be "black metal/shoegaze."

Shoegaze is a fine genre, metal is a fine genre, the combination is not. In conclusion, I blame the crossing of the two completely on the French and will continue to use it as justification of my hate of said country and it's horrific language.

Wow.... you use music to condemn a whole country? Congrats! How about giving actual valid reasons for not liking it to make this topic worthwhile?

Personally, I don't think Souvenirs d'un autre monde is metal but it's still very good. I just loved the general atmosphere of the album. It still had that black metal "fuzz" on guitar but Neige made it happy-sounding, to a certain extent, which is what I found really intriguing.

Amesoeurs I just love them, I don't know why but I just completely fell in love with that MCD especially Faiblesse des sens. Audrey's scream on that song is magnificient

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Crick
Despised by 17 Corners of the Universe

Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 6814
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:58 am 
 

c3p0 wrote:
thats a bit ironic coming from a Cuban.


Bezerko isn't cuban. He's a crazed australian.

That said, casse-toi. French is beautiful.
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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 4386
Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:03 am 
 

eternal_sin666 wrote:
Wow.... you use music to condemn a whole country? Congrats! How about giving actual valid reasons for not liking it to make this topic worthwhile?


Nope, I just hate their language with a passion and use such lame styles of music to further prove my point. :P In reality I have no problem with France of the French people, I just find their language annoying (a personal thing, I'm more a fan of the northern and eastern European languages).I find it humorous to exude an aura hatred towards everything France related though as it tends to piss off people like yourself. ;)

c3p0 wrote:
thats a bit ironic coming from a Cuban.


THE DECEPTION HAS BEGUN.

Now, if we're discussing "shoegaze metal" primarily with Neige's bands of shitness in mind and therefore primarily this "blackened shoegaze" phenomena, I shall certainly give you reasons as to why I hate it. This crap is essentially a complete distortion of everything that black metal should musically represent, this whole "softening" of the genre that Neige and co. are doing is completely contrary to what black metal should be, gritty and anti-commercial. It's almost like saying "oh look we're black metal but we're also easy to listen to!" Why the hell should black metal be easy to listen to? Wasn't the whole point of the genre arising for it to be extreme in both sound and vision?

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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:10 am 
 

Well sorry if everyone isn't as kvlt as you and only listens to anti-commercial music i mean god forbid a band ever go against the grain.

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Nyaricus
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:52 pm
Posts: 1214
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:16 am 
 

I love Jesu, they definitely have their "shoegazing" moments. Don't know much else, besides that. Someone on this site has a great band I checked out awhile ago, but I don't recall who :(

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Crick
Despised by 17 Corners of the Universe

Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 6814
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:18 am 
 

The problem is that with commercialization of a band comes a heavy "softened" sound which, while nice, often fails to hold up to the emotionally moving music the rawer forms of black metal tend to put out. The reason many people love the LLN is because they put out a different, horribly produced but emotionally strong and atmospheric form of black metal. Commercialize it and you've taken away a lot of the charm, as well as given their fanbase a heavy sprinkling of people who won't properly appreciate the music and spread it to an even dumber generation.
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eternal_sin666
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 209
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:19 am 
 

c3p0 wrote:
Well sorry if everyone isn't as kvlt as you and only listens to anti-commercial music i mean god forbid a band ever go against the grain.

Well you know, in black metal it's all about opposition but every band needs to sound the same

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LotF
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:39 pm
Posts: 371
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:36 am 
 

c3p0 wrote:
Well sorry if everyone isn't as kvlt as you and only listens to anti-commercial music i mean god forbid a band ever go against the grain.


Why do people always bring that shit argument up? Jesus Christ, thats so 1994.



On topic:
I'm interested in finding some Shoegaze BM bands now. Hopefully it isn't as terrible as this thread portrays it to be.
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Avaddons_blood
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:23 am
Posts: 2496
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:51 am 
 

The archives reveals a total of 6 bands with shoegaze in their genre description.

Alcest
Amesoeurs
Encephalon
Heretoir
Lengsel
Sleepless

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Snowgrave
Under The Plaintive Sky

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Posts: 2332
Location: U.S.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:01 am 
 

Heh. Well I'm sure there are a lot more bands with plenty of Shoegaze elements, like Caïna.
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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:56 am 
 

LotF wrote:
c3p0 wrote:
Well sorry if everyone isn't as kvlt as you and only listens to anti-commercial music i mean god forbid a band ever go against the grain.


Why do people always bring that shit argument up? Jesus Christ, thats so 1994.


How is it shit exactly?

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7477
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:02 am 
 

Bad music made by idiots and smelly Frenchmen.

But seriously, the whole blackened shoegaze thing is awful. It's like Easy Listening Black Metal. As a wise man once said, I might as well listen to Coldplay.
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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 4386
Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:21 am 
 

c3p0 wrote:
LotF wrote:
c3p0 wrote:
Well sorry if everyone isn't as kvlt as you and only listens to anti-commercial music i mean god forbid a band ever go against the grain.


Why do people always bring that shit argument up? Jesus Christ, thats so 1994.


How is it shit exactly?


Because it's completely unsubstanciated. How the hell do you know what I, or a person such as The_Beast_in_Black listens to? Going against the grain is great, it's why there's such a diverse amount of styles of music around rather than just two or three genres of music, but going against the grain and making shit is not great.

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Dark_Mewtwo1
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:20 pm
Posts: 179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:29 am 
 

Quote:
This crap is essentially a complete distortion of everything that black metal should musically represent, this whole "softening" of the genre that Neige and co. are doing is completely contrary to what black metal should be, gritty and anti-commercial. It's almost like saying "oh look we're black metal but we're also easy to listen to!" Why the hell should black metal be easy to listen to? Wasn't the whole point of the genre arising for it to be extreme in both sound and vision?



I like this softer style because I like shoegaze too, but I think that shoegaze can be done in black metal and still keep the original idea of black metal. People just haven't tried it in a way that it would. There's nothing in the rulebook that says all shoegaze is happy crap.

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Kruel
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 2163
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:31 am 
 

He didn't claim that "all shoegaze is happy crap."
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Dark_Mewtwo1
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:20 pm
Posts: 179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:36 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
He didn't claim that "all shoegaze is happy crap."



I never said he did.

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Kruel
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 2163
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:41 am 
 

I didn't say that you said so, either.

And I know that you didn't say that I said so...
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So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:54 am 
 

Bezerko wrote:
c3p0 wrote:
LotF wrote:
c3p0 wrote:
Well sorry if everyone isn't as kvlt as you and only listens to anti-commercial music i mean god forbid a band ever go against the grain.


Why do people always bring that shit argument up? Jesus Christ, thats so 1994.


How is it shit exactly?


Because it's completely unsubstantiated. How the hell do you know what I, or a person such as The_Beast_in_Black listens to? Going against the grain is great, it's why there's such a diverse amount of styles of music around rather than just two or three genres of music, but going against the grain and making shit is not great.


I was referring when you said you don't like it because it's going against what black metal should be and is commercial not your music taste in general. I probably should have said anti-commercial black metal.

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Kruel
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 2163
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:58 am 
 

So you mean that commercial black metal is acceptable?
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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EntilZha
Retired

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 2119
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:58 am 
 

c3p0 wrote:
Well sorry if everyone isn't as kvlt as you and only listens to anti-commercial music i mean god forbid a band ever go against the grain.

I guess I have to sell 80% of my records now, because it's a proven fact that I can only listen to raw underground black metal if I don't like some shitty homosexual French fad that will be gone and forgotten in two years or less.

What a massive strawman you got there. Be careful that it doesn't grab a girl and climbs up the Empire State Building.
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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:03 am 
 

My grandma would not be proud of you.

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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:07 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
So you mean that commercial black metal is acceptable?


Well its not like back street boys fans will start listening to it

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Kruel
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 2163
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:09 am 
 

Your point?
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:11 am 
 

As long as i like the music i don't give a shit.

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Kruel
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 2163
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:16 am 
 

What are you doing here if you don't give a shit?
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:22 am 
 

:???: I don't care if it's commercial as long as i like the music.

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antzology
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:24 am
Posts: 125
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:24 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
So you mean that commercial black metal is acceptable?


How does black metal become 'commercial'?

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Kruel
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 2163
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:26 am 
 

c3p0 wrote:
:???: I don't care if it's commercial as long as i like the music.

I don't care, either. But what does such a blank statement like "I like it, so I don't give a shit" add to the discussion?

antzology wrote:
How does black metal become 'commercial'?

I suggest that you read droneriot's review of In Flames's debut. It's not a black metal album, but the basic logic applies.
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:31 am 
 

Because people have said in this thread one of the reasons they don't like it is because it's commercial black metal i mean if you just hate the music fair enough but i personally wont stop myself from listening to something just because its commercial

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antzology
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:24 am
Posts: 125
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:34 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
antzology wrote:
How does black metal become 'commercial'?

I suggest that you read droneriot's review of In Flames's debut. It's not a black metal album, but the basic logic applies.


Read it. But how does black metal specifically become commercial? What are some examples of commercial black metal, and what is it that makes them commercial?

Surely if you were to change black metal so much in order to become commercial, wouldn't it no longer be black metal? I couldn't imagine 'commercial' black metal that was still black metal, the same way as I can't imagine raw and heavy pop music.

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Kruel
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 2163
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:34 am 
 

c3p0 wrote:
Because people have said in this thread one of the reasons they don't like it is because it's commercial black metal i mean if you just hate the music fair enough but i personally wont stop myself from listening to something just because its commercial
You're missing the point - I don't listen to commercial black metal not because it's commercial, but because it is shit.
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"


Last edited by Kruel on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7477
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:35 am 
 

I don't think anyone has said they don't like it because it's commercial. The fact that it's commercial is just a side effect of it being shit.
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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:36 am 
 

It's not completely commercial just more than your average black metal band.

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c3p0
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:56 pm
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:38 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
I don't think anyone has said they don't like it because it's commercial. The fact that it's commercial is just a side effect of it being shit.


So all shit music is commercial?

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7477
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:11 am 
 

No, but a lot of music gets turned shit in order to appeal to the market. Shoegaze metal isn't shit because it's commercial, it's shit and commercial.
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Kruel
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 2163
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:27 am 
 

antzology wrote:
Read it. But how does black metal specifically become commercial? What are some examples of commercial black metal, and what is it that makes them commercial?

Surely if you were to change black metal so much in order to become commercial, wouldn't it no longer be black metal? I couldn't imagine 'commercial' black metal that was still black metal, the same way as I can't imagine raw and heavy pop music.

Pop can be heavy in a sense, like nu metal.

Anyway, commercial in this case means:

1. prepared, done, or acting with sole or chief emphasis on salability, profit, or success
2. suitable or fit for a wide, popular market

Of ocurse, the market isn't going to be that big, but relatively big.

It doesn't have to change the music drastically to be commercial (we're talking strictly about the music, right?). Satyricon's Nemesis Divina would be a good example. Some Swedish norsecore band or a generic symphonic black metal band (the black-metalness may be questionable depending on the case, though) could qualify, too. If we take the definition of black metal more loosely (as was the case in this thread), there are of course a lot more, like Dimmu Borgir.
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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