Alright,to be honest I'm not sure if this even warrants a discussion but I would like to hear peoples pros and cons of modern schooling.Doing this for a sociology project.

My opinion is that school is tailored to the masses when it should be focusing on helping people individually.I have seen kids fall behind in classes not because they weren't trying but because they just couldnt keep up with the speed of the class.

Shouldn't you actually be looking up scientific articles and searching through university system databases and the like? If I were doing a research project, I sure as hell wouldn't bank on getting anything from a metal board.

I don't have many suggestions about how the education system could be improved; perhaps that comes with age, but there's certainly one thing which sticks out to me, and that's that I feel the education system should impart more philosophy. Not strictly in a "Plato this, Descartes that" sense, but I think it's very important in helping people see the bigger picture; understanding more closely what is meant, what is being said, what statements commit you to, how arguments work, and what that implies would be hugely beneficial, and is extremely under-done.

In all seriousness however;

Ive already done that and the second part of my paper said to get the opinions of a "community" and there is plenty of intelligent people on this board with varying opinions,seems like a perfect place to me.

In my opinion there is a lot of room for improvement for teachers. There are so many bad teachers around here who are either lacking factual knowledge, didactics, or both. This becomes even clearer when seeing good teachers in comparison - a good teacher manages to get the student's attention and get them to learn on their own.
A good example for school done right is Finland: Only the best are allowed to become teachers and they have more teachers and psychologists aswell. The result is one of the best education in the world, a highly developed society and very happy people overall.
Many students over-simplify things by blaming the teachers for everything, which is wrong in my opinion. But still I think that the influence of teachers on the development of a student is bigger than most people claim it to be.

Maybe, just maybe, he might be interested in other peoples' opinions. Maybe he values the input of human beings and opinions that don't come exclusively from academic articles and studies. It's a perfectly sound topic for discussion, I don't think it needs to be thrown away whether he plans to use our input in his project or not (which he didn't mention he would to begin with).

Only saying this because of the response to that other kid's extreme metal vs. pop culture thread.

Had he put that in his original post, especially the part about it being a requirement, then I wouldn't have given the response I did.

He never explicitly stated he was going to use our input in his project. It shouldn't even matter really.
Anyway, I believe that there's lots wrong with the modern education system (assuming we're referring to schools and not universities), but I've spent so long rambling about it in my old schooldays that I couldn't possibly express my thoughts on it as well as I'd like to now.

In a nutshell, I dislike the whole system. I dislike that a student of 16 or 17 is forced to decide what they want to do for the rest of their lives. I dislike standardized tests and the way students' value as learners and future-productive members of society are assessed. I dislike that in school students are taught little to nothing on how to function in the real world (pay taxes? how do you do that?) but are forced into mathematics and whatever else (though I do support a 'general education'). I dislike that system dictates to us the definition of success; that we need to get good grades to get into a good university to get a degree in a good and high-paying profession to...ultimately achieve happiness?

Well you probably shouldn't be asking a metal discussion forum to help you with your research since we're not a valid source but I'm feeling preachy today so *grabs megaphone and hops on soapbox*. Some of my appraisal of what's wrong with modern public schools and how we should make them a bit less fucked:

1. Reduce or eliminate private schools
These schools pull away the best teachers and wealthiest families from the public school system, reducing the educational opportunities of less well-off kids. No, vouchers are not a solution.

2. Use a statewide or nationwide funding system for public schools instead of local property taxes
This would be to ensure money is split up fairly between different schools and districts, giving better education to poorer students and putting a big dent in the growth of the underclass.

3. Reduce or eliminate standardized multiple-choice tests
These things are the goddamn education devil. Forget actually giving our kids an education, we'll just teach them what they know to fill in the correct bubble in a standardized state test. Tests should be largely devised by school teachers and administrators and use essay questions and other ways to properly test the children's actual comprehension of the material.

4. A national science curriculum
Fuck you, cretinists, you shouldn't be allowed to deny our children a decent grounding in the sciences.

5. Eliminate summer vacation and replace it with periodic breaks sprinkled throughout the year
Much of the work done in the beginning of a school year is remedial work to reteach what was forgotten over the summer. Giving students a few days to a week off every now and then with the school year being the whole 12 months would be much better.

6. Comprehensive sexual education courses that focus safe sex, personal boundaries, and how not to violate other people's boundaries
The "personal boundaries" thing is more important than "the penis goes into the vagina" because teaching kids to respect each other's boundaries will go a long way to reducing sexual harassment, assault, and rape.

7. Rigorous physical education programs
Would so many of us be lazy, sedentary, and fat if we had active lifestyles taught to us as children? Imagine what 5-10 hours of serious exercise a week would do to obesity rates. And no you can't opt out unless you're actually disabled, you pussy.

8. Mandatory civics, shop, and home ec for everyone
For the love of Christ, we force trigonometry and Algebra 2 on all kids when half of them will never use it but we don't teach them the basics of managing finances, fixing shit when it breaks, how our political system works and why you should not believe what comes out of the mouths of people wearing flag-shaped lapel pins, keeping a house in order, and other essentials of being a functioning human being.

9. Foreign language education in early elementary school
Little kids are geniuses at picking up languages. Teenagers on adults on the other hand, are really, really shitty at picking up languages. This is why immigrants who've lived in the US for decades still have thick accents but their children's English is flawless. So why are we teaching foreign languages in high school after the kids have lost their natural affinity for language learning?

10. Less completely bullshit history classes
No, Columbus did not discover America, nor was he a nice guy. No, George Washington is not the primary reason we won the Revolutionary War (the real reason is the French). No, our country is not above committing horrible war crimes.

11. Lose the "security"
We do not need metal detectors, drug dogs, and "resource officers". These are supposed to be schools, not prisons. If we make our schools into prisons we will raise a generation of prisoners. No matter how much people flap their hands and scream "NEWTOWN!", it's not worth the cost to the actual living children who have to learn in this oppressive environment.

12. Longer school days and much less homework
Homework really doesn't help learning or retention very much and could be replaced with more class time, allowing for more subjects to be taught, and since the kids get home later, they wouldn't be left unattended by working parents so much. Might suck for the advertisers who hawk products on afterschool cartoon programming though.

13. Spend the money to get some actually decent school lunches and ban junk food vending machines from schools
See above statements about lazy sedentary fat people and how they learn a lot of those qualities as children.

14. A health class with sensible, science-based diet and lifestyle advice
I'm going to harp on this, because this is the biggest public health crisis of our time and could totally bone our economy even more than it's already boned.

Yeah, that's not a lot of "pro" to go with the "con" but the US school system doesn't have much going for it when compared with any of its First World rivals.

no.

Did you even read the rest of it? If you get your breaks a few days or a couple weeks at a time all year long and they add up to the same amount, is it really a loss?

I did read it, I agree and disagree with some of your points. Regarding that specific one, however, I don't know how long it's been since you went to school but yes, it is a loss. The summertime is a magical time in the year, the only time when you can be carefree and enjoy experiences youll be revisiting in your memories later in life. I suppose I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure most will agree that you cannot replace or 'redistribute' summer vacations. It just isn't possible. Maybe it's because I'm Mediterranean.

I would much rather have the 'break every few weeks' deal. It is much easier to retain information, and students could effectively be taught and tested on 1 or 2 units per school periods.

Agree with almost all the points you brought up, Woolie_Wool. For a system dedicated to learning, the management of education in this country is pretty goddamn stupid.

Imagine a summer that lasts five months with 35-40 C temperatures and 80% humidity. A lot of people where I live are not big fans of summer. We call the summer months the "dog days" because they drain your energy and will to live.

I think high school should be structured more like college where a student is allowed to pick what classes he or she partake in so as to cater to both their personal interests and what they most excel at. The whole "well rounded education" thing doesn't work a lot of the time since not only is a lot of the material pointless unless that's what you're planning to pursue that as a career or whatnot (who here remembers high school algebra stuff? Honestly.), but many of the students who are stuck in these classes do not give one genuine shit about it. I remember in my senior year of high school there were exactly two subjects I had any sort of interest in: English literature and a combined psychology/sociology class. If I had taken a science class that year, I would've been equally interested in that, although the only science available was chemistry and I'm absolutely terrible at that. Beyond those two subjects, there was literally nothing I had any sort of interest in.

But this suggestion holds only efficiency of learning in regard. School is as much about learning as it is about social interaction. In my eyes the summer is almost an incentive to work harder during term. It's the much needed downtime that clearly separates the academic year. I just associate it with the best experiences in my life (as do most people I know) and look forward to it throughout the whoe year. Again, this is highly subjective. Im sure summer means something a lot different to the Canadians here

@Woolie--that weather sounds just like where I'm from, friend. And it's heaven on earth for me.

I thought Greek summers were dry. There's a difference between dry heat and humid heat. A world of difference.



Well one problem with that model is that a lot of kids of that age are nowhere near mature enough to be able to decide the whole path of their life from that point on, and life can always find a way to fuck you (like, say, making your career specialization obsolete) down the road. That is, if they even think of such things instead of just trying to come up with the path of least effort. There's always a need for a robust set of core classes instead of just making everything electives.

They are, I admittedly payed no attention to your humidity report. Having experienced horrible Italian summer humidity, I can understand where youre coming from (and just look at the photo I posted in the beer thread two posts over yours to see where I'm coming from). Besides all of that though, I do disagree with your alternative for more practical reasons, too, and not just because the summer vacation has always been the universal norm. I'm still in university now so school memories are still rather fresh in my mind, and I can assure you the difference between two free weeks sporadically placed across the year and two consecutive months once a year is huge in terms of both physical and mental rest from the stress of academia. The 'not retaining the information' is a non-issue, a few weeks of catch-up revision won't kill a kid. It shouldn't all be about efficiency.

The simultaneous elimination of private schools and banning of school vouchers strikes me as just about the worst way to "reform" a broken education system imaginable. Apart from the teaching of abstinence-only education and the denial of evolution---neither of which, contrary to popular belief, are really all that common in private schools, even religious ones---private primary education is one of the few things done right in the US.

As for the claim that vouchers dumb down public schools by depleting them of resources.....please. The primary effect of school vouchers in Sweden---you know, that "socialist success story"---has been better performance for the surrounding public schools. If done right, there's little reason to think it wouldn't do the same here.


At the least, there needs to be more effort to let students/parents choose which public schools to attend.

Apart from that though, I think most of your recs are perfectly reasonable Woolie. I would expand the mandatory civics/home accounting stuff to college too, but then I'm of the opinion that college wouldn't be worth it for most people even with those things in it. Such an expensive rip-off.

I found woolie_wool's post to be either stating the obvious (mostly ones that don't apply to oz, I guess), plain dumb/not knowing about fairly important literature (1, 3 and 5 in particular, 7 isn't that well thought through, 13.. hahaha) or really simplifying very difficult problems (getting a national curriculum in Aus was super hard, and we have maybe 1/15th of the population, so count 4 out forever, 6 would be super hard to write curriculum for, 8, impossible). But that's one "great" thing about teaching, everyone thinks they can do it! "yay".

Anyway based on Oz's curriculum I'd say we're doing a pretty good fist of it. There's a lot of focus on equality, but the smart kids aren't being held back either really. Such a huge amount depends on the individual teacher, there's high standards for so many areas. It's hard to ensure teacher accountability without stripping them of the flexibility that's so necessary in the profession, though. It's a hard job, simply put.




spoken like a true "I'm in high school and I'm really angry" guy! hahaha. /ignores


For the record: I'm not a teacher yet, but I will be one starting next year. I wouldn't say I'm an authority but.. compared to most of the people's responses here, I think maybe I am! haha.

Yep. Honing too far in on specific subject courses in high school could easily leave one with little options if they decide the career they thought would be a great idea at 16 actually turns out to be shit.



Obviously this is different in the northern hemisphere, I don't know if it's be convention for adults to take summer breaks. At least from a southern hemisphere perspective, our long break over the summer is convenient as Christmas/New Years leave for parents coincides with the kids being home. Plus for a kid, they spend the whole year looking forward to that break - so many good times to be had as opposed to a couple of weeks then BOOM - school again.

One thing that proponents of the "short break" don't know is that it takes a long, long time to plan for a whole new year. It's not like you just rock up to school around the 1st of february and wing it, you're planning from around the start of january. A long break refreshes the kids, refreshes the teachers, makes it much easier to plan for, is one hell of a lot easier for the parents to wrap around work... basically it's all pros and no cons.

ALSO, and this is where we see that pro-short break dudes have really no idea, have you ever tried teaching kids in a classroom where it's really hot? Having done a prac this year where we got a week of 40C I can say that you never want to. Kids will not learn when it's retardedly hot, and most schools don't have the aircon that can handle that kind of weather. So yet another advantage of having a long summer break. Personally I'd argue for the Aus holiday to start just before christmas and go 'til the end of february (even longer than now, in other words).

Thanks guys for all the input!

One thing that seems kind of petty, but for me was a big issue, is how early my high school started. First period was at 7:20 requiring me to wake up around 6 AM. Being someone who has trouble getting to sleep before midnight, I ended up sleeping/barely staying conscious for most of the day. It was the same for just about everyone else too.

Then things would need to be pretty damn different. Well, it really depends on which school level, as your whole post. It certainly wouldn't be the case for university.

Yeah the year-round schooling thing wouldn't work very well. A number of public schools (mine included) don't have air conditioning and can reach 95-100 degrees inside during the summer. There's no way I could learn in that kind of heat.

Then again, I'm graduating in 2 months so I guess it's not my problem! ha!

Yeah I have trouble waking up/staying awake because I have clinical insomnia and it can get pretty bad.

I feel one of the largest problems of the modern school system is that math and science still have this stigma as "hard" and "boring". I'm not saying they aren't to many people, many people justifiably don't get along with those subjects. But in my opinion they are fascinating fields and a huge part of the problem with many people finding it difficult is because they've been raised to believe it is difficult, or they've had teachers who present it in a boring or in ways which make it impossible to find the applications. Sadly, other fields that are not as "applicable" are presented as much more fun, such as literature. I enjoy many books passionately, but the world has no use for literary analysis (same could probably be said for metal too, but there's no way in hell I'm giving up listening to music, and I'm trying to make a point).

At this point in history, science and math are incredibly important. What is driving society? Engineers! Computer experts! Scientists! The more of these, the better society will be in the future. Small businesses are very important and keep the economy going, but STEM fields move us into the future.

This isn't true, or at least has not proven to be in my experience. I think that choosing between pursuing math/natural sciences or the social sciences is one that comes very naturally and has everything to do with the gradual development of ones' character and interests. There are plenty of students out there that find studying history and 'the long-gone past' infinitely more boring that focusing on the science and the future (as you say). Surely bad teachers can be a problem, but they won't stop students with a genuine interest in the field. People need to stop perceiving schoolkids as brainlessly and helplessly subject to any and every influence around them...in their junior and senior years especially students really have a good idea of what subjects they find interesting and the general direction they wish to pursue later on.

I do not agree with this at all. Public schools follow a one size fits all approach, when one size inevitably does not fit all. It works for most people, but some fall through the cracks. Private schools allow a better education for some kids. Sure, it's not fair that it isn't available for all, but sorry, life isn't fair. I don't think limiting better education



Definitely agree with this. Although the redistribution of summer vacation time throughout the year probably is a better idea on paper, do we really want to ruin the magic of summertime for all these kids?

Education has lost sight of its real purpose, the more it gets subjugated to governmental will. As long as a teacher can be counted on to pass amoral, relativistic liberal-socialist "values" that the modern regime supports, he/she qualifies as a teacher. They've forgotten that education properly means giving growing minds the knowledge to form their own worldviews, neutrally.

The consequence is a 10th history teacher straight-up denying to me that Germany ever used dirigibles as bombers. But it's okay! She can teach because she's bilingual, and therefore represents the "value of diversity". As if a business will thrive by hiring a gaggle of idiots with different racial origins, sexual preferences, whatever, just for the sake of being accepting and tolerant.

We all got one freebie assignment per term that we could choose not to complete, and it would disappear. They had to keep class averages "up" at a mediocre 67% somehow! But God forbid they should do it by teaching those capable to learn, while allowing the inferiors to fail. No, their primary task as progressive indoctrinators was to reinforce everyone's equal specialness.

This results in high school standards becoming so laughably low that every dumb bastard gets high enough marks in their grad year to qualify for college/university cutoffs. Of course, they never hesitate to offer loans left right and centre in case you're too piss-useless to work your way through a degree. That way they ensure a maximum, bloated enrolment in the pricy post-secondary ranks. Gradually, profs succumb to the dumbed-down quality of HS grads thry're stuck with, and lower their standards accordingly.

Four years later, you attend your graduation ceremony with 6,000 other totally unremarkable Bachelors - all of whom spoon-fed and hand-walked to the finish line. So after all that you're not proud or even hopeful for your future. You berate yourself for all the wasted effort! You stand up on stage with your diploma, right next to some wannabe rapper stain on society, finally realising: all my work has gotten me no further ahead than the pieces of shit who coasted along, spending most of their off-class time drawing gang signs on the bathroom walls.

As a teacher myself, I see the American education system sinking rapidly. It is mostly due to more federal government interference, the economy, and the lack of family values as well as crappy parents that should not be parents. Honestly, I would like to see public education go away and education in general should be privatized. This would reduce costs for everyone while increasing the quality of learning and the learning environment. The way I see it, education is a priviledge, not a right. You want? Go get it! It shouldn't be rammed down your throat. And yes, you are right... it should be more individualized.

Nah bro. It's a pity you're a teacher yet you seem to not understand that ones own education can impact an entire society. Like, somehow the world didn't benefit and receive anything from other people becoming educated, even though knowledge is the very thing that transformed western society out of the dark ages. Yes- there's benefits of education like getting a better job. But better jobs pay because they help society more (theoretically... exclude hedge funds and the anomalies that are famous for no reason).

Also, putting a direct high price on the student will not make a overall better education system, only an exclusive one. What- you think the only ones trying to do well in school are ones able to afford some private education system? All this would do is worsen the already shitty distribution of wealth in this country because there would be almost no opportunity for poor people to get the credentials needed for a job that would put them above the poverty line.

In general, I believe that public school teachers need a pay raise in this country (it's one thing I wouldn't mind having my own taxes increased for as long as there was effort to cut spending in other areas) and tenure should be completely eliminated. If a higher value is put on those who give knowledge to younger people, then the value of younger people's knowledge will increase. Bottom line. Never mind the fact this would inherently make becoming a teacher more competitive and increase the quality of the education. Tenure being eliminated would make sure teachers don't get lazy when they hit a certain year of teaching.

I'm finishing my first (and, I've decided, last) semester as an adjunct professor. There are many things to complain about with regard to education, but I'll add this: People who seek a career in higher education have very little to hope for, even with regard to basic things like job security and a livable salary.

It doesn't seem that difficult to get a job as an adjunct professor. Most college educators are adjuncts, who are hired on a semester-by-semester basis, earning maybe a couple thousand dollars per course; if they're "fortunate" enough to get assigned a maximum course-load (teaching as many as six courses in a semester), they can expect to be paid roughly $20,000 a year. As for the prospects of "advancement" (i.e. doing a lot of the same work, but not being treated as a second-class citizen in academia): I read a column on the Chronicle of Higher Education in which an anonymous member of a community college hiring committee reported that an opening for a full-time professorship had about 100 applicants. I don't doubt that that's entirely typical, and that many of the applicants had years of experience and positive student evaluations.

How did this come about? I don't know, and don't particularly care. Nobody expects it to improve anytime soon. But I've decided I can't tolerate the vision of myself in my mid-30s still deciding between living with my parents and living in poverty, continuing to get rejected from full-time positions. It's rather appalling that so many people go as far as they do in the educational system, earning MAs or PhDs, only to find themselves in just that situation.

Read more here: http://www.alternet.org/education/acade ... paging=off

How ironic it is that those "liberal-socialists" you're shitting in are the only people in American politics who are trying to save public education, while American "conservatives" (who really aren't that conservative anymore, maybe they should call themselves "radical hypercapitalists") are doing all they can to completely destroy it. How pitiable our capitalist class is, forgetting that to acquire physical capital you need human capital, and thus they're undermining the foundation of their own economic dominance (see also: companies demanding years of experience for entry-level positions instead of training green young workers so there will actually be a decent number of skilled workers 30 years from now).


I've heard of the Germans (ineffectively) using dirigibles as bombers in World War I but not in World War II. Dirigibles are shit bombers compared to piston planes like the He 111; they are extremely large, slow, vulnerable targets with tiny payloads for their size. But I'm not sure how this is even remotely important compared to the much greater lies told in American history classes where the crimes and incompetence of people part of or supporting American power are glossed over. I remember my history books telling me My Lai was some sort of exception, an aberration from the usually responsible conduct of US soldiers in Vietnam. In reality, the United States is responsible for the deaths of around 3,000,000 Vietnamese and monstrous atrocities happened constantly, in nearly every unit.


Of course, the grinding poverty, the private education system siphoning off all the best teachers, the shitty school budgets, moronic curricula often set by religious fundies, the kids having no fathers because the fathers all got locked up for smoking harmless marijuana and they can't get a job because OH NO WE CAN'T HIRE DOPEHEADS, those have nothing to do with it...


And of course, this is because of those liberal-socialist values, unlike, say, Finland, whose infinitely more liberal-socialist values give them one of the best educational systems in the world.

While I agree that education should be more individualized to the needs of every students, I realize that something like this is quite expensive and that we already place a lot of money into education (it needs to be invested in key areas though) but I truly believe into a greater accessibility and the privatization goes against this. My society, after the 1960s, established a public system to even the odds and give all the kids a better chance till they're at least 16 years old and I agree with this concept. Building a society is also building apt and able citizens. Also, education is truly important as a cultural vector for the immigrants, that's where you build a sense of belonging to your new society. Removing the public system would simply nurture the need for religious and private schools hence supporting the ghettoization of the ethnic groups. I'm not for complete and total cultural assimilation of course as I wouldn't be honest to my cultural ancestry who fought against against that for centuries. A cosmopolitan society is a treasure and it should be treated as such, what is desirable is a better integration and the public school system is definitely one of the better tools for this.

I'm firmly opposed to your views and I'm sad that a fellow teacher spouts that education is a "priviledge" (that's an obsolete word, btw). Education is a right and the merchandising of education should definitely be stopped, it's consuming the power of knowledge and distilling his true necessity (to create a better and educated society and not simply an intellectual elite). I say "fuck off" to those who say that social sciences are unnecessary and shouldn't be funded since there's no job perspectives, that's society that decides whether or not it's important. The priorities are not at the right places, especially when we look at the military expenses, I don't know but putting almost 700 billions in military is okay for the US but $50,000/year for university is totally fine...But maybe the situation is thoroughly different in the States and the public school system is total bullocks, still I don't think the privatization of education is the good solution for any educational systems.

As for my current experience, I'm actually doing an internship in an alternative school (the only one of its kind in Québec) and I like the system. It's developing the autonomy of the kids (it works with modules) and the classes are there to offer guidance, support and answers their questions while they work on their own. A secondary 1 student can finish his 1st history year in 5 months and jump to the 2nd year so they can actually finish their high school in 4, 5 or 6 years. It's a personalized school with a lot of sport and art programs and it's a good learning environment. But what I really like about the system is the "counsel group", every teachers are responsible for like 20 students (usually grouped within concentration and levels, my associated teacher is taking care of the musical comedy group). It's something really fun, the kids are really taking care of, they meet their counselor (who can be their counselor for their whole school experience) every day and they're really followed and not on their own. That's something that should be in every high schools in my opinion.

You think that military budget is crazy already, Metantoine? Over $1B per year is spent just on one giant mega-embassy in Iraq. An "embassy" that has swimming pools, theaters, a stadium, and 3,600 mercenaries providing "security".

The reason education is universal and mandatory among the young is because America reached a general consensus a long time ago that making education a right and not a privilege was essential for the Lockean (pre-Hayekian/proto-libertarian) values this country was (rhetorically) founded on. Namely, that everyone deserves an equal opportunity at success. Education is essential to that. It is most certainly not a privilege.




Denmark has a higher rate of school privatization than the US and they are tied for first with Finland on the UN's Education Index. The mere existence of private schools by itself has no detrimental effect on the U.S. education system.