I listened to the extract you posted, your voice is slightly unsteady and there are slight pitch issues as a result, most likely a result of improper breath support. However you can more or less hit the notes throughout the piece, which is fairly impressive. Which makes it even more strange that you would attempt something as stupid as trying to sing a C#6. I think I can say with some confidence that there is no man who has successfully passed through puberty who could hit such a note in his modal register. Your recording evidences this quite nicely as it's obvious when you slide from the final note up to the high C# that your voice breaks into the falsetto register. Which is fine, because there is no musical context in which you would be required to.

My advice to you when your voice recovers is to stop thinking about range. Range shouldn't even be an explicit concern of your practice routine, your primary concern should be hitting the notes which are already within your range with good technique and tone, range expansion should occur naturally over time as your technique improves anyway, and your range is fine to begin with.



You as well. Stop thinking about range and start thinking about the sound coming out of your mouth. Case in point, the A4's on the chorus sound harsh and lacking in vibrato, more shouted than sung really. Because of the volume you use in hitting the note it sticks out too much compared to the notes around it as well. Can you sing that note and bring it down to a piano dynamic? If not, work on that, ideally you want to be able to sing every note in your range at every conceivable dynamic level from pianissimo to fortissimo. At the same time I would guess that you need to work on directing the sound towards the hard palate (As counter intuitive as it sounds try and visualise inhaling or drinking the sound up into the mouth and onto the roof of the hard palate), because it the moment it sounds like you're just belting the sound straight forward. Then focus of singing that note in the context of the song - you want it to sound smooth and effortless, the effect will be much nicer and more compelling than at present where it sticks out like a sore thumb. And don't think about G5's and G#5's until you've got that down - range is a secondary concern, it only gives the ability to hit certain notes, singing the notes is a whole other matter.

Hey, thanks for your critique. I'll focus on my breathing from now on, since that's an area I've largely ignored. That C#6 was a spur-of-the-moment thing; I wasn't planning on trying it, but about two seconds beforehand I thought, 'I wonder...' and that was the result. Just having a bit of fun, really. Out of curiosity, are you a vocal coach? Either way, I appreciate your criticism, and I'll definitely take your advice.

I'm not a vocal coach. I've had singing lessons in the past in addition to studying vocal pedagogy in my own time with the works of the bel canto masters from Tosi to Garcia. People who have heard me sing folk songs and Operetta arias have told that I have a decent singing voice. I will try and put up a clip in this thread as a show of faith because I recognise that sometimes I can get too big for my boots in these discussions. The range chasing craze which seems to plague the internet genuinely disturbs me though, it is a shallow appreciation of vocal technique which views the range of notes a person is capable of hitting as a measure of their greatness, akin to guitar players who obsess about picking speed. Without naming names I don't think I've heard a single rock/metal vocal teacher on youtube using that approach who has a 'good' sounding tone in their forcibly extended range. So when I see people who seem to be falling into that mindset I want to respond and hopefully convince them to reevaluate things.

In terms of breath support, I think the key thing is posture. You want to be stood upright, feet shoulders width apart. In terms of the chest, the sternum should be raised and the chest expanded outwards, a common analogy is to the position of a solider standing to attention (This is also sometimes referred to as the 'noble posture'). If you raise your arms and then bring them back down to your sides again you should get an idea of where everything should be. The shoulders should be relaxed and the breathing itself should occur with the diaphragm. Inhale slowly and deeply at first, don't take a loud gasp of air all at once, and use the diaphragm. Don't consciously push the belly area in when exhaling though, think about when you speak, you think of the phrase and you naturally have enough breath to speak it. It should be the same with singing, once you've adopted the correct posture and taken a good full breath in, you should be able to focus on singing the line, and your breathing will regulate itself. The term sometimes used for breath support in the classical world is appoggio so if your researching on the net, try that as a keyword.

Thanks for the feedback, Xanzotire. You see, this is exactly why I need a vocal coach. Singing is fun and all (especially the hardcore material ) but...there's still need to a lot of things done before I could handle these songs full of crazy high notes well.

For me it's definitely possible to sing those notes a bit softer, this will also mean the mean my notes will sound headier as opposite to that belt with a sort of chest voice quality to them.

You kind of missed his point, didn't you. You're still only concerned about getting the high notes right. How about improving your overall singing technique, and being proud of having a brilliant tone, accurate intonation and ingenious phrasing, or something? Those are some of the qualities your listeners will appreciate considerably more than your ability to hit high notes, especially if your singing is otherwise shaky.

Colin, can you explain what you mean when you say that the high notes become 'headier'? It sounds to me like you haven't really learned how to use the 'head voice' mechanism properly and are pushing the chest voice upwards for the high notes rather than bridging properly. At any rate, something is wrong if your only tonal options on a note are too loud and too soft, but it is difficult to pinpoint exactly over the internet. Hopefully you find a good vocal coach who can you help you.

Ilwhyan, I don't agree that singing the high notes properly isn't a problem in singing actually, but there is a problem (1) of making that the only question in singing and too (2) improper evaluation of what exactly the high notes are. Forums on the internet like 'The Range Place' claim impossibly large vocal ranges for any number of popular singers and people like Bret Manning claim six octave ranges for themselves and this leads some people to believe that the 'high notes' are universal to all singers and usually somewhere way up there in the fifth octave. But the reality is the high notes are relative. A high note for a baritone might be an A4 (Here is the Russian Verdi Baritone Dimitri Hvorostovsky interpolating an A4 in 'Largo al Factotum'), a high note for a bass would be an E4 or an F4. Since these voice types have different centers of gravity, what is considered a high note will be different, and offset in either case by the fact that these heavier voice types can also go lower with more power than a tenor. Of course if you are trying to imitate a singer with a higher tessitura than the lack of 'high notes' will immediately be felt as a pressing problem, because you will already be singing your real high notes for the bulk of the song, leaving you with nowhere to go. The revolutionary answer to the lack of high notes in this situation is of course to sing in the tessitura of your own voice, and then you will have somewhere to go, your own high notes, which may not be Geoff Tate's high notes, but they are your high notes.

Listening to Bobbie Wright's vocal development is instructive in terms of this question. On the first Brocas Helm record there is a very obvious strain in his voice, it sounds weak as if he is trying to imitate a tenor type singer but not succeeding because of the weight of his own voice. If you listen to the latter two records however, he sings more in his natural tessitura, and the difference is immediately obvious. He sounds so, so much better. He doesn't sound like Bruce Dickinson or Dio obviously, but he does sound like Bobbie Wright, and it turns out that's a pretty awesome thing to sound like. Unfortunately there isn't much call for an appreciation for the individuality of human voices when one is attempting to sell a one size fits all product ("YOU TOO CAN LEARN HOW TO SING LIKE DIO, RUN A SUCCESFUL OFF SHORE OIL DRILLING BUSINESS AND GROW A BIGGER DICK FOR THE LOW PRICE OF $9.99 A MONTH"), that would be bad for business. That's my cynical rant for the day.

Being able to sing high notes is great and all, and I enjoy listening to, say, Michael Kiske just for how easily he sang in chest voice. Dickinson especially used some extremely high notes to a very effective dramatic purpose. However, compared to other qualities of voice, those are irrelevant. As an analogy, the ability to shred fast on guitar is irrelevant unless you can play good riffs. In a band, there has to be someone to write the riffs for you, or even play them. Intermediate singers should focus on improving their overall vocal performance and not be at all concerned about their vocal range. That, of course, is not to say that said intermediate singers shouldn't implement some high notes when it's approppriate and comes comfortably.

I'm speaking from the perspective of a music listener, mostly; being that you have more knowledge in the vocal coaching department, I'm not going to argue which aspects of singing is the best to teach to learning singers. I'm merely pointing out what I would much rather hear a singer excel in, and what I would, as a singer, much rather focus on.

Actually, I agree with Ilwhyan. From the POV of a listener, the overall quality of a voice is much more important than indivdual aspects such as range. As a vocalist myself, I'm more concerned with how well my voice projects and how consistent it is. Hoy many notes I can reach is, at best, a secondary matter. Sure, I'd love to be able to wail like an aird raid siren (who wouldn't?), but that's no priority.

Oh shit, definitely think I read some stuff too quick here. It's good that there are some actualy critics here that can point out my faults when it comes to singing. Funny enough I often keep thinking I can do this! while trying high vocal stuff, but yes, I do agree that for now I should put my ego away and just start mastering some songs that while range wise might not be the most impressive, are still somehow enjoyable and eventually try a little harder stuff.



What I meant was that the loud chesty quality of my notes was a stylistic choice. In fact, when I was still having singing lessons I'd often do the opposite of what I did in the clip: sounding very light, brighter but with less power in my higher notes. After I quit lessons I experimented more (something I better be careful with, too) adding weight to my notes. (I think the light vs heavy sounding thing is also mentioned as ''early/late bridging'' but I'm not too sure.)

Anyway...it's vacation now and I really hope to find a good coach. I really need guidance when it comes to singing as I tend to overlook a lot. Once again, I want to thank you both for your critism and feedback.

No I agree with you basically.

Reporting back on my own vocal progress by the way. Today I had a consultation with a local singing teacher. I sang a short song for her (Norwegian Wood by The Beatles) and then we did some simple scales to test my range. Her conclusions were:

- I can already sing in tune with a nice bright tone and clear diction.
- The timbre of the voice indicates that I'm a tenor but the technique and muscle co-ordination aren't in place yet for me to produce the tenor high notes.
- The existing voice has enough potential to develop into a voice which would be capable of having an Operatic career, it will take at least two to three years to get to that point however.

I was pretty happy afterwards. She seemed fairly knowledgeable and agreeable. I was not expecting such a positive evaluation but she seemed serious and confident of her assessment. I'm going to start taking singing lessons with her from next week onwards. She teaches mainly classical and musical theater singing styles so when I go to her we'll be working on aria's and folk song. I'm happy enough with that, I can learn technique and gain experience in traditional singing styles from her and work on becoming a USPM vocalist on my own time

Congratulations! That's a very great thing.

So, I am a bassist primarily, but I also do vocals when necessary. One of the problems I have been having is that while I can learn to sing and play a song at the same time, it throws off my vocal technique. I think it is just a matter of focus, but I lose a lot of power and control on my cleans, and it makes my harsh stuff more throaty and damaging. Does anyone have any suggestions to improve on this?

I'm having some issues with gutturals. Right now, my gutturals have a little too much "R" in them (probably from my mouth shape and tongue placement, but I think it might be more of an issue with breathing). They are certainly low, but they aren't as wet/loud/nasty as I want them to be. I know ideally they should be at speaking volume at minimum, and I'm almost there with that, but I think my technique is fucked up. I've watched a bunch of Youtube videos and am finding out what works/doesn't work, but I've been at it for 3 months and I feel like I should be way farther than I currently am.

I try to push from my diaphragm, and I practice at least 5 minutes a day and drink oceans to keep my throat wet. The sound I want is sort of a mix of AJ Magana and Steve from Visceral Disgorge. Obviously I'm not trying to copy these dudes, I want to start adding my own touches after I've got the basic guttural I have in mind sounding good.

Can anybody give me some pointers?

It's just practice. Start simple. It's really frustrating to start on stupidly easy songs, definitely, but it's the best way. If you can notice your biggest problem on a really easy song and correct it (tensing up, losing focus, etc), then you've just knocked out your biggest problem. So on and so on until you're correcting little tiny things that will make you sound really good

Yes it's really about practicing, it's like the brain should be seperate in 2 parts! One thing that can help is to begin with simplified bass lines to be able to focus more on vocal technique.

I've been working on my vocals a lot more. I haven't really done anything since the last show we played a couple months ago. I've lost the low growl that I had before and am slowly getting it back, I really need to cut back on the cigarettes. I've been trying to get the banshee scream that Dani Filth used to do a long time ago, and I'm getting closer and closer. I can do it after a couple tries but I have almost no consistency and it isn't near loud enough. Also, Devin Townsend does it way better than Dani. There's a video or two where he does one for a second or so and it just sounds fucking monstrous. After not practicing for a long time I've found a better way to do death metal highs, it gives me more power while being a bit higher in pitch and it's a bit easier but it isn't as raspy as the other way I do it. I've been trying to do really weird vocals that no one has really heard before, adding more of my actual voice into growls and screams and I definitely like the way it's progressing.

It'd all be so much easier if I didn't have to play tech death drums at the same time

There's no way I could even pull off anything higher than Shagrath's croaking let alone a banshee screech...
but I can pull of a mean Ross Dolan or Craig Pillard or even old school Chris Barnes death grunt, though

I never thought I could either until someone said it was "vocal fry," so I looked up a video on it thinking it would teach me how to screech like pterodactyl, boy was I wrong. Although it did give me an important detail. It's really different than doing any sort of scream, at least the way I've come to be able to do it. I tried to think back long, long ago when I was a wee lad and was able to make such a sound, the way that I did it. It helped a little bit. And I really don't use much air with it, so once I get it down hopefully I'll be able to do retardedly long screams.

I'm the opposite. My lows are quite weak, so I do most of my vocals in the black metal rasp/scream range. I can pull off deep lows, but they're breathy and strained, and most of the resonance is high-pitched (bree bree...). I can't get the smooth, effortless growls of Dolan, for example. My vocal range is baritone, so I guess my physique just isn't well suited for it. I'm sure I can overcome it with practice.

So it's been about three weeks now and my voice is still knackered. It's recovered a little bit, but only in the lower registers. I'm not getting very worried yet, as I know it might take a few months to fully heal, but it is a little concerning. I hope I didn't cause permanent damage. That would be such a waste, just for one measly note.

Thiestru, sounds like you really hurt something. Talk as little as possible, don't hum, don't rub it, put hot pads on your throat periodically. You can drink honey tea if you want, obviously, but since you can't drink in your trachea, only rest is going to really do anything.

Why isn't this thread a sticky anymore?

Anyway, I wanted to ask a certain thing. I can release deeper and smoother and rawer growls when I have drier throat. Does this happen to you guys too?

Not usually, but after having been yelling or doing harsh vocals for about 15 minutes then my low growls become much fiercer and more gurgly.

I do some higher-pitched screams when I warm up. Usually they're like Chuck Schuldiner's early screams or Mark Shelton's high screams in the 80s. They do get my throat a tad raw, but they help in getting some gravelly character and distortion to the lower growls. In that sense I'd say yes, but with a dry throat, my growls are terrible.

It's very inadvisable to perform harsh vocals without sufficient lubrication (ie. don't growl with a dry throat).

^ That. Lukewarm water during vocal sessions, and a glass of milk afterwards to help recoat your throat. Milk during a session is seen as not a smart move, but I personally haven't really had a problem with it. I know soda isn't exactly great for my throat but again, it doesn't really effect the sound of my technique. If you really wanna open up, either do some really angry "AAAARRRRRRGH"'s or bark like a dog... literally, it helps. That and say your vowels in a death growl. It'll get your voice to really rattle

I've been practicing growled vocals for about 5 months, for about an hour/session, a few days a week. I dont have any formal training so I have no clue know what all this C# stuff is, but I was wondering if any of you would be willing to give me any pointers or criticism. This is a clip i recorded a few days ago: https://soundcloud.com/ross3897/sample-vocal-track-raw

What did you use for a microphone and how close were you to it? Edit: Sorry I am a jerk, you had the mic info on the page there.

Depends what type of music you wanna play. What are you going for? Your vocals sound fine in themselves, if a little weak. I say work on your highs. When you can get your highs down with the death growl, then you can use this to make your lows sound even meaner and fuller. Right now, they sound pretty thin.

Work on getting more power out of your growl before concentrating on shaping your tone overmuch. Currently you seem to have a fairly small useable range. Using a booklet for a pop filter is probably going to make your voice sound terrible compared to what it could be recorded with an actual one, and is probably throwing me off somewhat, so take what I say with a grain of salt or two. What I gathered was that you're straining and doing a lot of work to shape your tone, which most likely sucks much power out of your raw, unshaped growl. My advice is to work on that unshaped growl, and not give too much a fuck about whatever overtones there are that you don't like yet.

Practice a headier growl which isn't all the way high, but not utterly guttural and brutal death metally. See early Edge of Sanity for an idea - lots of head resonance, but depth and bottom end as well. Do it without shaping your mouth, throat or anything else in any particular way. When you get that to sound well-rounded, well-defined and powerful, you can start figuring out how to add some deeper flavours to it.

I have no idea about how your mic sounds. For myself, I've found the SM58 to be the best for growls.

Hey everyone, I'm an amateur growler trying to get a good solid base for doing harsh vocals. I practice a lot of bands that use the "classic" death growl. Lately, focus has been on the band Bloodbath. Where I get to work on both low grunts, more mid-ranged death growls and a few high pitched shrieks. I've known how to "growl" for a few years, but it isn't until recently I've started to practice it every other day. I really wanna master everything there is to master about growling and screaming. Check out my performance below and let me know what you think. The microphone isn't the best, and I warn you about the volume on the shrieks here. They are screeching loud to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2M5bxEaAMQ

My personal issues that I've noticed is that sometimes my enunciation fails and I can't keep up with the lyrics. And the second problem is that I'm not growling deep enough compared to the vocalists who originally growled on the track. I think my screams and mid ranged stuff when I get a good "fry" sound to it are nice, but sometimes my vocals are too hollow and a bit too close to my normal voice whenever my voice breaks... Well, let me know what you think I should improve!

Sounds like you need a little more projection on your growls, and also you need to work on keeping them consistent. Your highs are pretty good, but I can't tell much because they are too distorted by your mic. One thing that worked for me when I was learning growls was something I saw the vocalist of Abysmal Dawn doing in the studio. He comes up to the camera and says "A, E, I, O..." and then he growls the U while holding it out and projecting it. I did that and it really helped me learn to stay consistent with my gurgling, and also how to project the growl through my face instead of balling it in my chest.

looking for black metal/depressive vocalist to collaborate on my already recorded/finished tracks.. I usuallly do it myself but living in an apartment has its limitations. will send the track if you are interested

Go to your bedroom. During the day, no one uses the bedroom except for loud shit anyway.

The same as for most of the "growlers" posting here: it's not loud! Put the mic 10 feet away, and it won't even be audible. I'd say your growls are a bit quieter than your speaking voice. That's not how it should be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P-KX0h1abM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odhb88kowGE

You're right. I'm honestly trying my hardest to make these low-mid growls as audible as I can. I do think my highs are pretty loud in comparison. But by being that loud I have to sacrifice depth. I really wanna learn how to sound more "beastly". But you're right, I'm pretty weak right now. Is it just a question on practicing? I'm "pushing" as much as I can with my diapraghm.

Your voice could simply not be meant for the sound you are trying to get. It doesn't mean you are a bad vocalist, it just means we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. I would like to sound like early Mikael Akerfeldt when growling, but I have more of a Peter Tagtgren mid-range growl, and I can simulate his highs without sounding just like him. It just depends on your own strengths, like I said.

me again, i listened to the advice i had been given and have worked on being more forceful and loud. i recorded a video of me and the mic in my camera seems to produce the same sound as my other mic, but it levels out the volume a bit better. the song is "Whore to a Chainsaw" by TAIM. i know that allot of people here dont like this kind of death core, but i wanted a song that i a) know the lyrics to, b) has both shrill highs and nice lows, and c) was intense enough to get me to scream with sufficient power. i think i did my best growls and screams in the "die you fucking whores... bitch your dead" part.

http://youtu.be/g3jSZkO5ubI

I'm not really the one to give vocal advice, but I think the problem is that you are skipping a step. Just like all these incredibly fast Youtube death metal drummers. They have amazing technique that allows them to play along to the most difficult technical DM, but they will never become complete drummers, because they skipped the step where you learn to play AC/DC and James Brown grooves.

I think you would benefit from practising/learning "proper" singing, then moving on to screams/thrash vocals, and then progress to growling.
Your latest video was much better, but it still sounds as if you're just mimicking a sound, rather than singing in your own voice.

The ability to project (clean) voice is absolutely essential, yes. It's the most important step in terms of being able to preserve your voice despite using a harsh technique, because using excessive force (amount of air) is damaging. You might be able to growl loud and without immediate pain, but your voice will get hoarse and it'll lose edge.

Practice normal singing as well as growling - once you get the harsh vocal technique right and it comes intuitively, you hardly need to practice growling much - mostly just voice projection.

how loud should your singing voice be in comparison to your normal speaking voice? and how loud should your growled voice be in comparison to your singing voice?