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SF01
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:30 pm
Posts: 65
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:26 pm 
 

I think we should reconsider naming "types" of releases on MA.
Many releases are short Albums, but cannot be classified as Full length.
Furthermore, the term EP was incorrectly adapted and is incorrectly used to describe mid-length albums.
Basically an EP is a vinyl format between Standard Play (a 78RPM release) and an LP (Long Play, a microgroove 33RPM record).

Thus using EP for voth things is confusable.

We shuld replace the Full-lengths and EPs with Albums and Mini-Albums for long and short albums, that are not Singles of any type.

As an example, many releases that are here as "EPs" were actually released on LPs which technically should make them Fulllenghts, such as Burzum's Aske, Mayhem's Deathcrush (although it was first released as Demo), Rhapsody's Rain of Thousand Flames and A Cold Embrace of Fear, Helloween's Halloween, and others.
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Azmodes
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:38 pm 
 

Our categories "Full-length" and "EP" are not based on any type of physical medium, they are to be viewed as broad classifications of the actual content regardless of the physical format, that is, of full-blown albums and, well, mini-albums that aren't demos or singles or such. I don't think it's very confusing. The term "EP" does have that general connotation of a comparably shorter, but still more professional, non-demo/promo release. So does the term "full-length" for a proper album. They are generally understood as mini-album and album, respectively. Also, as you know, we go by what the band considers their release to be when it comes to distinguishing full-lengths from EPs, and less so any quantitative, absolute standard.

Furthermore, there'll be a new feature for multiple release versions eventually, where the actual format (CD, LP, 7'', etc...) will be listed in a separate field for each version. So there is really no need for any redefining.
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SF01
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:30 pm
Posts: 65
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:49 am 
 

But the EP is a ctually a format of a vinyl recording.
So having this type results in both binyl EPs to be added as such and Mini-Albums, which are a different thing than EP.

As I said there are LPs added as EPs, which is physically impossible for an LP to be EP.

I think that the term "EP" should be changed to "Mini-Album", or in the vein of full-length to a "mig-length", but this doesn't look as good as Mini-Album.

From the technical point of view, the 7" singles are EPs, som one would enter a single as EP (which happens often, Mayhem's Psywar, Behemoth's Bloww Your Trumpets), it was marketed as EP which reffered to the vinyl format, but many assumed that this is the type of release, not it's physical format.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:45 am 
 

And I say that the term "EP" has come to have a broader meaning than that, not confined to vinyl formats. It's not "physically impossible" for something defined by the content to differ from something that (used to be) defined strictly by the medium. We've had this nomenclature for twelve years now and I haven't noticed any incessant floods of confused reports/threads complaining about the use of EP for a mini-album. It's a simple division into albums and... shorter releases that aren't obvious singles or demo recordings, things that have come to be referred to as EPs as an umbrella term. We could change the latter to "Mini-album/EP", but I think that'd be pretty redundant at this point.

I do remember all that nonsense and back-and-forth about the new Behemoth single, but considering the number of releases listed on this site, a few cases of ambiguity are inevitable and would be with whichever other terminology.
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iamntbatman
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Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:04 am 
 

In the English-speaking world, the term "EP" has referred to a specific style of content (often a few new studio tracks plus covers, alternate versions/remixes, and/or live tracks, etc.) for so long now that I doubt the subtleties of the etymology of the term are even that widely known. To repeat what Azmodes said, once the multiple versions feature will include information about specific release format that will address this issue while we continue to refer to EP's as such because "mini-album" is not a term in broad use by any means.
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theunrelentingattack
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Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:18 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:36 am 
 

Tens of thousands of bands put out 5 song CD's and call them EPs and they definitely are not referring to vinyl.
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SF01
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:30 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:28 pm 
 

They are also calling Albums as LPs, whiel both of those terms are used interchangably with Album and Mini-Album.

Furthermore, right now there are many Singles put under the name EP.

I think we should make some at least basic rules about choosing type, to avoid such situations as on Behemoth's single.

Mini-Album is a used term:
http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/ ... TrIaSw.jpg

As terms Album and Mini-Album are in existance, we should use them to reffer to type of release and leave LP/EP/SP to be used with vinyl type as it was originally used.
LP and EP were adopted from the vinyl days, because back then there was only vinyl, so they didn't have needed more universal terms.

Please don't act that narrow-minded as those dicks on discogs, they use the term LP specifically for 12"33RPM records, but they use EP for everything, while having the Mini-Album tag. They put "Album" tag when an artist call's it's release LP, but they don't do the same with EP and Mini-Album (See the battle over Cinemon's Cinemon LP).
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Azmodes
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:07 pm 
 

Are you sure you've really read and understood our responses so far?

If you have, well, apparently there's a fundamental disagreement here that you'll have to respect. Sorry.
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SF01
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:30 pm
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:42 am 
 

Then explain me, why Singles are treated on the same levels as mini-albums, there are mini-albums of even 50 minutes long which are called EPs here while there are some 3 track singles, which also are as EPs, are they the same category, are they of equall importance?
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Cursarion
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:56 am
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 6:28 am 
 

Is "importance" a factor now? We don't treat 80s Metallica albums and their later works differently, or double albums containing two hours of material and 30 minute full-lengths. Some EPs/mini-albums/"whatever you want to call these ambiguous releases which are somewhere between singles and full-lengths" are long, some are short.
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SF01
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:30 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:50 am 
 

So 50 minute EP and 35 mnute full length album is tottaly fair and correct?
Or even better, 18 minute Full-Length (Bumilingus).
35 minutes album is a Full-Length, but 50 minute EP is not Full-Length, how many minutes does it need more to be called full-length?

In UK there are rules for classifying releases in Charts.
We should at least have basic rules what to call a Single, Mini-Album and Album.
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Cursarion
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:03 am 
 

Those belong to different genres though? I don't really think we'd achieve anything by setting strict time limits for the categories, even if they were finetuned for each genre. There'd still be quite a few ambiguous cases.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:07 am 
 

SF01 wrote:
So 50 minute EP and 35 mnute full length album is tottaly fair and correct?


Yes.

Quote:
Or even better, 18 minute Full-Length (Bumilingus).
35 minutes album is a Full-Length, but 50 minute EP is not Full-Length, how many minutes does it need more to be called full-length?


The length of the release does not factor into it.

Quote:
In UK there are rules for classifying releases in Charts.


Good to know.

Quote:
We should at least have basic rules what to call a Single, Mini-Album and Album.


And thus we have them. If a band considers it a full-length, it is a full-length. If it is considered an EP by the band, we call it as such. Same for singles. When there is no clear statement of intent with a release type, we use common sense, taking into account things such as the rest of the band's discography, the content of the release, etc.
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SF01
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:30 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:19 pm 
 

The common sense whispers to me, that EP cannot be longer than LP, thus your explanation does not correspond with neither common sense nor logic.

There is a reason why LP is Long Play, because it playes longer than EP and EP is Extended Play when related to SP Standard Play.
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Metantoine
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:25 pm 
 

Thanks for your feedback, unfortunately there's really nothing to argue here. The classification heavily relies on artistic decisions and we try to respect that. Your stubbornness and your inability to respect/understand the comments kindly given to you has lead to this thread's demise.
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Azmodes
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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Location: Austria
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:41 pm 
 

How we see our average userbase/visitors: "Alright, gonna look up that new Candlemass EP, that new shorter-than-usual release that the band has deemed fit for such a tag for their own artistic reasons and within their discographical context without first consulting with the UK Chart Standard Association or comparing it to every single other released album of every single band so far."

How SF01 seems to see our average userbase/visitors: "Alright, gonna look up that new Candlemass full-length... wait a minute, what? Can't find it, there is only some strange entry about a supposed EP, even though it's clearly longer than 25,6743 minutes! Longer than some of those 20-minute "full-lengths" (hah!) I saw from these grind bands even!! What madness is this?! Doesn't anyone think of good and proper vinyl terminology anymore?? Oh the confused humanity!"

Yeah, as Tony said, it seems pointless to continue here. Respect our decision or feel free to leave.
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