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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:41 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
FUCKING GROAN. The mirror universe was done already in TOS and we got everything we need from it in DS9. This is pathetic.

Also, the pilot to TNG was not action-heavy.

What makes Discovery work in a franchise spanning almost 1,000 tv episodes and 13 movies is covering familiar Trek ground in a new way. I really love all incarnations of Star Trek but even I'll admit once DS9 was over, it just kept doing the exact same thing over and over and over again, self-perpetuating until it completely burned itself out.

I love Monster-of-the-Week style episodes, but let's not pretend it's the best utilization of the TV format and is almost in opposition to good storytelling. Mini-movie episodes have to cram the three-act film structure into 45 minutes, forcibly cutting out almost everything that isn't directly plot-related. The reset button isn't conducive to creating compelling characters.
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~Guest 226319
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:54 pm 
 

No Star Trek series ever hit the reset button after each episode. There has never been null-continuity Star Trek.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:32 pm 
 

TNG, VOY and the first two seasons of Enterprise are reset button lollapaloozas.
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Resident_Hazard
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:41 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
No Star Trek series ever hit the reset button after each episode. There has never been null-continuity Star Trek.


With the exception of the VOY episode, Threshold, where Paris and Janeway, *clears throat*, "evolved" into space salamanders and had space salamander sex and space salamander babies. They pretty much pushed that one out of canon after it aired.

What's extra stupid about that episode is that "Warp 10" was some kind of magical barrier that, once crossed, creates space salamanders out of people. Previously, in TNG, when they showed Captain Riker helming the Enterprise in the future, as I recall, it could travel Warp 14. :|
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:13 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
TNG, VOY and the first two seasons of Enterprise are reset button lollapaloozas.


Actually, Voyager did a lot of resets in that show. The ship was in remarkably great shape despite never being able to get to Starfleet for repairs, upgrades, and the like. Although, one of the resets I enjoyed was the Year of Hell stories, where things just kept getting worse until they hit the reset on Red Foreman's time ship.
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why
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:31 pm 
 

So i was pretty pleased with rick and morty so far, considering it a pretty good series until
Spoiler: show
REST AND RICKLAXIATION KNOCKED IT OUT OF THE PARK HOLY SHIT WHAT A BRILLIANT EPISODE THAT WILL REMEMBERED AS A CLASSIC FOREVER CONSIDER ME A FANBOY RIGHT ABOUT NOW

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Turner
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:03 am 
 

RE Rick & Morty: this latest season has been a step down, gotta say. BUT it's still enjoyable - I think the well is simply running dry with the Citadel-esque storylines, and the last episode felt very hastily smashed together. Still, I think R&M is one of the best "adult cartoons" out there - still hasn't hit South Park levels of cynicism, but it's faaaar better than your Archers and Metalocalypses. There's still a lot of "cartoon guy says a bad word lol!" type shit for the manchildren, but not as much of the pointlessly online-COD-player-esque edgy shit.

RE the Orville: Ok watched all 5 episodes now and this is pretty much what I wanted STD to be. Good sci-fi episodes in the vein of your older Trek, SG-1, etc. Less and less of the McFarlane humour in each episode as it gets into the series, which is a good thing - I don't want Family Guy in space. When you think about the humour in shows like TNG and SG-1 you know it can work, too - just has to be in small doses, so a matter of McFarlane honing his skills. Can't be 100% comedy apart from the occasional dedicated episode. Has to be 80:20 in favour of storyline, maybe more. Good spoof so far, but also not really a spoof. I hope it survives past the first season.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:00 am 
 

Orville isn't even close to being as good as Discovery. Orville is fun, disposable sci-fi cheese, whereas Discovery is aiming for something much higher.
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Turner
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:42 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Orville isn't even close to being as good as Discovery. Orville is fun, disposable sci-fi cheese, whereas Discovery is aiming for something much higher.


I know we're just going to fundamentally disagree on this point, but I really don't think it is. You've no doubt read a million people saying this, but Discovery really isn't aiming for anything higher. It's exactly as the Cracked article described (and I've no doubt the alt-right hates Cracked, as well as the Orville's last few episodes) and completely devoid of that "lesson" type thing that monster-of-the-week sci-fi does - it's blockbuster movie-type stuff condensed into an episode: all effects but no real substance, nothing to make you think. But Orville has that actual "discovery" vibe to it, and that's what I want. Plus it's filling a gap when these days I don't see any other sci-fi series doing that. I'll definitely watch more of Discovery, cause I always do just in hope, but I know it's not gonna go where I want it to. Which is cool, I don't wish them bankruptcy or anything like some of those more scathing reviews have, but I do really hope someday someone makes another ST series that just explores sci-fi scenarios without all the dark batman nonsense.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:28 am 
 

Turner wrote:
RE Rick & Morty: this latest season has been a step down, gotta say. BUT it's still enjoyable - I think the well is simply running dry with the Citadel-esque storylines, and the last episode felt very hastily smashed together. Still, I think R&M is one of the best "adult cartoons" out there - still hasn't hit South Park levels of cynicism, but it's faaaar better than your Archers and Metalocalypses. There's still a lot of "cartoon guy says a bad word lol!" type shit for the manchildren, but not as much of the pointlessly online-COD-player-esque edgy shit.


I think this season was the best yet - every episode just fucking killed and felt more well-written than before.

Are there really that many "cartoon guy says a bad word" moments? I never got that vibe really. Maybe in the first couple of eps of the whole series, but not even really then.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:33 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Turner wrote:
RE Rick & Morty: this latest season has been a step down, gotta say. BUT it's still enjoyable - I think the well is simply running dry with the Citadel-esque storylines, and the last episode felt very hastily smashed together. Still, I think R&M is one of the best "adult cartoons" out there - still hasn't hit South Park levels of cynicism, but it's faaaar better than your Archers and Metalocalypses. There's still a lot of "cartoon guy says a bad word lol!" type shit for the manchildren, but not as much of the pointlessly online-COD-player-esque edgy shit.


I think this season was the best yet - every episode just fucking killed and felt more well-written than before.

Are there really that many "cartoon guy says a bad word" moments? I never got that vibe really. Maybe in the first couple of eps of the whole series, but not even really then.


Totally agree, this season was outstanding. In my opinion, probably the strongest episode of the franchise is the one with Unity, which ends so bleakly, which was an early 2nd season episode. But this season was outstanding. While the last episode of the third season ended with less "severity" than how Season 2 ended, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. The series needed a semblance of grounding to keep it relateable and Rick was pretty much free to run on his own the entire time, and if there wasn't that grounding, the series would have risked going completely off the rails.

My favorite part of this season, however, is the overall change in Morty becoming much more confident, clearly jaded and seasoned, and tired of Rick's worst elements. I think there was a lot of great character development all-around, but especially with Morty. And I loved the new Citadel episode.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:50 am 
 

Turner wrote:
RE the Orville: Ok watched all 5 episodes now and this is pretty much what I wanted STD to be. Good sci-fi episodes in the vein of your older Trek, SG-1, etc. Less and less of the McFarlane humour in each episode as it gets into the series, which is a good thing - I don't want Family Guy in space. When you think about the humour in shows like TNG and SG-1 you know it can work, too - just has to be in small doses, so a matter of McFarlane honing his skills. Can't be 100% comedy apart from the occasional dedicated episode. Has to be 80:20 in favour of storyline, maybe more. Good spoof so far, but also not really a spoof. I hope it survives past the first season.


I'm not interested in a full show of "space spoofery" as that does not have much room for longevity. McFarlane's sense of humor works in small spurts, but long-term, it doesn't. Like, Spaceballs worked as a movie because it was a spoof of space movies, and that only needs to exist in one story. Currently, I'm not looking forward to the sequel. A whole TV show like that sounds tiring as fuck.

As far as I'm concerned, some of the best comedy ever put to television has been in otherwise serious shows. When Stargate SG-1, the X-Files, and Star Trek: DS9 ventured into comedic episodes and segments, they were fucking brilliant. They played with their own tropes, they toyed with their own ideas, they were willing to be silly. The sillier episodes of The X-Files by Darin Morgan (Jose Chung's From Outer Space, Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose, etc.) were outstanding. They're creative, they're hilarious, the characters are great, the episodes are fun, they are absolutely my favorites. When Col O'Neil and Teal'c are stuck in a time loop, that is the peak of comedy in Stargate. And dammit, DS9 not only made the Ferengi valuable and enjoyable characters, but this remains the only Star Trek series to do really, really good comedy episodes.

This is one of my favorite exchanges in DS9:

Brunt: "A child... a moron... a failure... and a psychopath. Quite a little team you've put together!"
Quark: "What do you want, Brunt?"
Brunt: "I'm here to sign up!"

From The Magnificent Ferengi.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:13 am 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
Totally agree, this season was outstanding. In my opinion, probably the strongest episode of the franchise is the one with Unity, which ends so bleakly, which was an early 2nd season episode. But this season was outstanding. While the last episode of the third season ended with less "severity" than how Season 2 ended, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. The series needed a semblance of grounding to keep it relateable and Rick was pretty much free to run on his own the entire time, and if there wasn't that grounding, the series would have risked going completely off the rails.

My favorite part of this season, however, is the overall change in Morty becoming much more confident, clearly jaded and seasoned, and tired of Rick's worst elements. I think there was a lot of great character development all-around, but especially with Morty. And I loved the new Citadel episode.


I need to rewatch that Unity episode. I think I had seen it when very tired and falling asleep.

Yeah, the way they're actually moving the characters forward is nice. They really want to have a good story beneath the jokes and zaniness. Some of my friends, mostly comedians, say the last few episodes haven't been as funny as the older stuff. I'd agree with that - the jokes per minute have definitely gone down and maybe they'll find a better balance as they go forward, they were quite ambitious with this season. But the writing and storytelling have just been so good. That Citadel episode was bonkers and some of them like Pickle Rick, Rest and Ricklaxation or the Whirly-Dirly Conspiracy have been up there with the best of the whole show, crammed with hilarious stuff and also character development.
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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:09 pm 
 

Mindhunter starts on Netflix tomorrow. Pretty excited for this show.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:32 am 
 

Turner wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Orville isn't even close to being as good as Discovery. Orville is fun, disposable sci-fi cheese, whereas Discovery is aiming for something much higher.

I know we're just going to fundamentally disagree on this point, but I really don't think it is. You've no doubt read a million people saying this, but Discovery really isn't aiming for anything higher.

I actually haven't; most criticisms I've read of Discovery reference "forced diversity," and how disgusting it is to have a black woman as a Mary Sue (despite not being a Mary Sue, of course).
Quote:
It's exactly as the Cracked article described (and I've no doubt the alt-right hates Cracked, as well as the Orville's last few episodes) and completely devoid of that "lesson" type thing that monster-of-the-week sci-fi does - it's blockbuster movie-type stuff condensed into an episode: all effects but no real substance, nothing to make you think.

That Cracked review only referenced the pilot, which indeed was an action-heavy sci-fi movie, exactly like every Star Trek movie made since First Contact. How the hell could you call Context is for Kings or The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry "blockbuster movie-type stuff?" Just because they don't have a painfully didactic sit-down lesson at the end of each episode doesn't mean it's not there. Did you not get the use of a nationalist declaration of war as a means to prevent civil war? Did you not get the overt conflict between Michael's "nature v. nurture?" Did you not get that sometimes, war may be the only way to kickstart significant scientific advancement? And there's a whole helluva lot more, and the frequent references to Lewis Carroll reminds me of Picard's dalliances in literature and applying them to situation at hand.

Also, Discovery is serialized storytelling. You cannot even approach serious depth when using Monster of the Week design.
Quote:
But Orville has that actual "discovery" vibe to it, and that's what I want. Plus it's filling a gap when these days I don't see any other sci-fi series doing that. I'll definitely watch more of Discovery, cause I always do just in hope, but I know it's not gonna go where I want it to. Which is cool, I don't wish them bankruptcy or anything like some of those more scathing reviews have, but I do really hope someday someone makes another ST series that just explores sci-fi scenarios without all the dark batman nonsense.

Yes, the "discovery" of blatantly ripping off Star Trek just shy of copyright infringement. I think the show is really fun, sci-fi fast food roughly on par the weaker Voyager episodes, but it's so embarrassingly pastiche and simplistic and dull I just have difficulty imagining an adult could like it more than Discovery...
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:19 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:

Also, Discovery is serialized storytelling. You cannot even approach serious depth when using Monster of the Week design.


Ooooohhhh yes you can.

Indeed, a very good argument could be made for non-serialized storytelling being better at serious depth as it allows for a wider range of stories. Look at the Walking Dead, which is serialized. After 7 seasons, character depth is still ludicrously poor. Most of the time, they only bother to give you "depth" about a character in the same episode in which they die. The characters largely face the same threats, or similar kinds of threats repeatedly and the show is forced to linger on in rampant stupidity in order to maintain it's serialized bullshit.

They defeated the Governor, so what was the next logical course of action? Repair the prison or move into Woodbury, or set up outposts at both locations. What'd they do instead? Go wandering around so they could stumble into the same bullshit again having learned nothing.

Now, let's look at non-serialized shows like X-Files, Star Trek TNG or DS9, and Stargate SG-1. These regularly explored character depth, very serious depth, in a way that serialized storytelling largely would not allow. Since they didn't have to cling to a serial plotline, they were free to have, say, Daniel or Teal'c themed episodes that explored their characters (SG-1).

They were able to explore the character of Data and his quest for humanity, particularly as he developed a friendship with Geordi (TNG).
DS9 was brilliant at allowing us to get to know characters over a vast array of episodes, even if O'Brien ended up in trouble/abducted/imprisoned every time he left the station.

Mulder and Scully were cast in a wide range of plots and concepts and ideas which allowed their characters to be explored from damn near every conceivable angle on the show, right down to a full episode where Mulder literally does nothing but sharpen pencils and call Scully because he's bored. That episode (Chinga) was vastly separated from the alien invasion arc, but it greatly explored how resilient Scully could be on her own and how useless Mulder could really be without her around, and what little he had in his life beyond his hunt, his longing, his beliefs, and his apparently deep knowledge of porn (which was mentioned across several episodes).

Serialization really only shows us how characters work in the limited focus of the serialized plot. Monster-of-the-Week storytelling, on the other hand, allows us to see the characters cast in a wide range of plots, and it can be done far more easily.

The serial element also needs to come to an end at some point and TV shows typically suffer once those arcs finally end. Either they went on too long and the show petered out, or the arc was wrapped up too soon and interest in the show vanished (which was notorious for the original Twin Peaks), or the show simply fails to offer up a compelling arc after. While Stargate SG-1 and X-Files had their underlying mythologies, the monster-of-the-week (planet-of-the-week) episodes broke things up and kept the show fresh. At the same time, they both became weaker shows when their primary arcs largely wrapped up. When the Goa'uld were largely done for in SG-1, they moved onto the Ori, which was never remotely as good (and they focused on it far more heavily). The exact same thing happened to The X-Files once Mulder and the alien arc were laid to rest in favor of the Super Soldier arc.

If the serialization is the primary point, as it is with the Walking Dead, then the longer it goes on, the more ridiculous things become. The lazier the writing gets in order to justify clinging to it. I'm a good season behind on Walking Dead (I don't have cable), but season 6 nearly killed the franchise for me, as it had to be some of the dumbest writing I've seen in a TV show this side of Primeval or Fox News. Instead of going in a healthy new direction for Walking Dead, they have to keep meandering into these arcs of blatant stupidity that makes the show frustrating. It ran out of steam a while ago as far as I'm concerned. Negan doesn't even make any sense. These people are all still in the same, what, tri-county area of rural Georgia or whatever--where the fuck do they all keep coming from? How is gasoline still usable six years later? That shit expires, you know. It doesn't last long. A logical endpoint would have been to just set up a smart alliance in the town they put together, but no, the show must go on.

Most TV shows peak in seasons 3-6. This is when the strongest writing occurs, characters are established and they can start exploring them, and the writing staff and showrunners are in a comfortable creative groove. Walking Dead didn't have the steam to get through Season 6. It peaked at 5 and should've stopped there, and that is already painfully obvious. Some might say it peaked at 1, given the way AMC fucked it over afterwards.

But check TNG and DS9, Stargate SG-1, The X-Files, and just so many other shows. In general, if season 6 isn't a peak, after which a decline begins, then season 6 is the point where the show clearly lasted too long, and the downward trajectory that follows gets real painful real fast.

Serialized shows only really work if they're short--maybe 5 or fewer seasons. The serialized plot has to end, and character development is dependent on the plot, when the arc ends, it goes downhill fast. Monster of the week/planet of the week shows can run for longer, typically peaking around 6 or 7, and their decline is less pronounced. So while TNG season 7 was weaker, it wasn't a gross drop-off the way Twin Peaks (infamously) was, nor was Stargate SG-1, which peaked around 7 and had a 3-year decline. Indeed, serialized shows have less "good" time available for strong character development because the steam will run out faster.

MacGyver was actually the same way, now that I think of it. It's peak was those seasons of roughly 2-5 where they had a mix of his militaristic/government/espionage work and social commentary, after which, it was mostly just social commentary and the show ended. Dexter is another show with a serialized format, generally notable for the first two seasons being great, the third and fourth being decent, but clearly falling into a groove, and after that no one seems to remember anything except how it got way more ridiculous and then ended. Most of the characters on the show didn't get a whole lot of exploration as everything was focused on dealing with the current serial killer and how Dexter was hunting/befriending/hunting-friending said killer on his own time. I really liked Dexter, but I have to admit, after about season 4 or 5, aside from Yvonne Strahovsky and his sister discovering his secret, it's mostly a blur.

All of this is to disagree and say that no, serialization is not necessarily better for developing deeper characters. If the entirety of TNG had been focused on "let's fight the Borg," we likely would not have, say, been privy to Data becoming a parent or playing Sherlock Holmes, or witnessed Worf struggle with conflicting identities as a Klingon warrior against his Starfleet discipline.

All the serialization in the world didn't make anyone on The Walking Dead smart enough to just fucking repair the perfectly good homes they had available to them prior to meandering into the woods to, oh look, run into more rapists and cannibals. Jesus fucking christ.
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ThePoop
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:39 am 
 

Anybody got an opinion on The Good Place? It was recommended to me by a coworker whose taste I consider to be respectable and trustworthy. I figured I'd give it a shot since I'm a fan of what Michael Schur has done in the past. After a couple episodes, the premise intrigues me but it hasn't exactly been as sharp or funny as I expected. I haven't found a basic cable comedy show worth watching in a very long time and this show has a bit of a shitty basic cable aesthetic that I typically am not drawn to (everyone's slightly too attractive, the color palette is very bright). However I have heard that the show gets a lot better. I'll probably stick with it, but for the hell of it I'll ask, should I?
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:27 am 
 

I like it. It's funny and handles itself pretty cleverly. A lot of the characters/actors are a joy to watch, particularly Bell and Danson (and there's a hilarious cameo by Adam Scott). And suffice it to say, the basic premise gets expanded a bit later on.
Spoiler: show
Or rather... modified.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:05 am 
 

WTF, DS9, SG-1 and X-Files were heavily serialized...

And so was The Wire.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:31 pm 
 

Well he did say serialized shows work with 5 or fewer seasons. If you take out the one-off episodes, DS9 probably has significantly less than 5 seasons of "main plot" episodes.

Anyway I can see his point, strictly serialized shows like The Walking Dead do often end up spinning their wheels for significant amounts of time. I think DS9's mix of main plot and one-off episodes is the healthiest for a longer-running show. Even with a generally amazing serial show like The Wire, I thought the last season was clearly the weakest. Earlier seasons of The Sopranos were better, too.
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AboveTheThrone
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:25 pm 
 

American Horror Story, anyone? I just finished the "Roanoke" season last night, now I'm two episodes into "Hotel". I always shunned the show because I figured it would be some watered-down, family-friendly series, but I was completely wrong. It's actually addictive and seeing Cuba Gooding, Jr. was a pleasant surprise.

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Sinfulsot
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:32 pm 
 

I have been watching American Horror Story since its beginning. Season 1 sets up the AHS universe and they've been consistent throughout. ghosts in particular. From Freakshow going forward, their storytelling has definitely gotten tighter. Hotel was very character oriented. Coven was the weakest, but overall it's been good quality primetime horror.

I am mostly caught up on the current season and i am on the edge of my proverbial seat.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:24 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Well he did say serialized shows work with 5 or fewer seasons. If you take out the one-off episodes, DS9 probably has significantly less than 5 seasons of "main plot" episodes.

Anyway I can see his point, strictly serialized shows like The Walking Dead do often end up spinning their wheels for significant amounts of time. I think DS9's mix of main plot and one-off episodes is the healthiest for a longer-running show. Even with a generally amazing serial show like The Wire, I thought the last season was clearly the weakest. Earlier seasons of The Sopranos were better, too.

Yeah, I think a general trajectory of TV shows is that they usually peak around the 3-5 season mark. That said, I really think DS9 pretty much required an 8th season (as Ronald and Ira wanted, but Berman said 'but TNG!'), and it really hurt not having it.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:37 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
WTF, DS9, SG-1 and X-Files were heavily serialized...

And so was The Wire.


The Wire was strictly serialized, and followed my note that serialized stuff needs to wrap up fairly quickly, as it did in 5 seasons. Which really should have been four, given that the final season was completely ridiculous. For as great The Wire was, that last season was a turd, and fell into Walking Dead territory, where stupidity became a way to maintain repeated nonsense, particularly with McNulty. "McNutty."

DS9, SG-1, and X-Files had background arcs, but the vast bulk of those shows lied in Planet/Monster-of-the-Week stories. I also rewatched all three of these over the past two years, with my son and I just recently finishing SG-1. The final two seasons of SG-1 were far more serialized (the Ori arc), but prior to that, it was Planet-of-the-Week stuff.

Both The Shield and Damages were serialized and both of those ended strongly.
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Erotetic
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:09 am 
 

ThePoop wrote:
I haven't found a basic cable comedy show worth watching in a very long time and this show has a bit of a shitty basic cable aesthetic that I typically am not drawn to (everyone's slightly too attractive, the color palette is very bright). However I have heard that the show gets a lot better. I'll probably stick with it, but for the hell of it I'll ask, should I?


Spoiler: show
Sartre + Desperate Housewives decor = The Good Place


couldn't possibly think of anyone I'd recommend it to

it definitely doesn't get a lot better
Spoiler: show
it just has a twist ending
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demonomania
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:39 am 
 

Just finished the third episode of "The OA" - very involving, mysterious stuff. Diggin' it.
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Erotetic
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:27 pm 
 

finished American Horror Story s2.
really enjoyed it.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:08 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
The Wire was strictly serialized, and followed my note that serialized stuff needs to wrap up fairly quickly, as it did in 5 seasons. Which really should have been four, given that the final season was completely ridiculous. For as great The Wire was, that last season was a turd, and fell into Walking Dead territory, where stupidity became a way to maintain repeated nonsense, particularly with McNulty. "McNutty."


The Wire Season 5 was one of the best ones, I loved the news/media angle and I can't wait to get to that one again on my next repeated viewing.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:11 pm 
 

The Wire season 5 was a lot of fun. It felt a bit more comfortable in its own skin and was just trying some weird, out-there shit plot-wise, and it was a fun trip to watch, even if it didn't have the emotional resonance of the earlier seasons or the same rage of the underprivileged and whatnot. I want to rewatch the whole show sometime.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:34 pm 
 

Watched Broadchurch season 1 after a friend gave it a shining recommendation. hm, pretty good overall, but not great. I was expecting a lot of crude red herrings thrown my way, but I think that was handled reasonably well. They didn't overdo it and things were never presented as some lucky break in the case leading directly to the killer (which they obviously couldn't have been), by and large the detectives constructing a case and trying to eliminate potential suspects. And still, it felt a bit stuffed with everybody having some goddamn dark secret/past and making things harder for the police for what seemed more rule of drama than anything else.
Spoiler: show
Then there's the psychic bullshit, which should definitely have been left out. Really unnecessary and actually insulting. Seriously, stuff like that pisses me off. Tennant is completely justifiably chewing the guy out for being a vulture and fraud and then the latter is lazily redeemed and Tennant's scepticism presented as cynical and irrational in a grounded series where any of that woo just feels shoehorned in. Fuck off.


Spoiler: show
I'm told the second season largely deals with Joe Miller's trial, is it worth checking out?


demonomania wrote:
Just finished the third episode of "The OA" - very involving, mysterious stuff. Diggin' it.

It showed some promise and I found Jason Isaacs' character and his... research arc interesting, but as the season progressed there was too much wishy-washy spiritual try-hard nonsense for my taste. It just got silly and I only skipped through the final episodes.
Spoiler: show
Sorry, but that ridiculous-looking dance crap in the finale... no.
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ThePoop
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:17 am 
 

Azmodes wrote:
I like it. It's funny and handles itself pretty cleverly. A lot of the characters/actors are a joy to watch, particularly Bell and Danson (and there's a hilarious cameo by Adam Scott). And suffice it to say, the basic premise gets expanded a bit later on.
Spoiler: show
Or rather... modified.

Thank you. After a few more episodes, I'm warming up to it considerably. Pros starting to outweigh cons, a few characters starting to grow on me.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:19 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
Resident_Hazard wrote:
The Wire was strictly serialized, and followed my note that serialized stuff needs to wrap up fairly quickly, as it did in 5 seasons. Which really should have been four, given that the final season was completely ridiculous. For as great The Wire was, that last season was a turd, and fell into Walking Dead territory, where stupidity became a way to maintain repeated nonsense, particularly with McNulty. "McNutty."


The Wire Season 5 was one of the best ones, I loved the news/media angle and I can't wait to get to that one again on my next repeated viewing.


The news media stuff was great,. The "let's invent a serial killer in a complicated scheme to get more money for the police department" was fucking bonkers. For me, what was when the show jumped the shark, and went from realistic, grounded drama, to slapstick nonsense where believeability was cast aside in favor of low-brow entertainment.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:20 pm 
 

I wouldn't go anywhere near calling it slapstick, jumping the shark or low-brow. I loved it and it seemed completely realistic to me given how many cases we see of cops "inventing" cases for many nefarious reasons.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:40 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
I wouldn't go anywhere near calling it slapstick, jumping the shark or low-brow. I loved it and it seemed completely realistic to me given how many cases we see of cops "inventing" cases for many nefarious reasons.


Yeah, but inventing an entire serial killer to get more money, and then having to funnel that money from serial killer hunting to regular policing without it getting too suspicious and without too many people knowing? I found that completely absurd. Cops plant evidence and they frame people at times, but that's like "oh looks like I found some pot" and "nice broken taillight you got there" kind of shit. This stretched to the point that I couldn't take it seriously. The only realistic part was McNulty losing his job over it.

It was a monumental show--except for this plotline.

Last night, I watched the first episode of their (the makers of The Wire) new one, The Deuce. I've always found the sleazy 70's interesting, and while the pilot movie set up a shitload of characters and plot points, it looks like it might be pretty good.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:43 pm 
 

I dunno, entire police departments are known to fabricate issues which they then funnel money for said issue into other things. Doesn't strain my credulity even in the slightest.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:04 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
Last night, I watched the first episode of their (the makers of The Wiere) new one, The Deuce. I've always found the sleazy 70's interesting, and while the pilot movie set up a shitload of characters and plot points, it looks like it might be pretty good.

Oh, that completely flew under my radar! Thanks for mentioning it, will have to check it out.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:17 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
rexxz wrote:
I wouldn't go anywhere near calling it slapstick, jumping the shark or low-brow. I loved it and it seemed completely realistic to me given how many cases we see of cops "inventing" cases for many nefarious reasons.


Yeah, but inventing an entire serial killer to get more money, and then having to funnel that money from serial killer hunting to regular policing without it getting too suspicious and without too many people knowing? I found that completely absurd. Cops plant evidence and they frame people at times, but that's like "oh looks like I found some pot" and "nice broken taillight you got there" kind of shit. This stretched to the point that I couldn't take it seriously. The only realistic part was McNulty losing his job over it.

It was a monumental show--except for this plotline.


I really thought the whole thing was a blast to watch. I thought the show deserved to let loose and have some fun in its final season after four seasons of dour, socially conscious, morally complex drama. I can see where you're coming from but I thought the first four seasons were great for what they were and the fifth likewise for its own slightly different template - it tied together a fitting end through McNulty's motivation for doing all of that crazy shit, which was to help the police department get shit done. I thought it was an interesting, if over the top, way to close out the series.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:50 pm 
 

I thought season 5 was absolutely worth watching and definitely had some good plotlines - finally nailing Marlo, the whole newspaper side - but the "fake serial killer" thing really did strain my suspension of disbelief and just seemed dumb anyway. It felt way more "cable cop drama" than the gritty realism of the first four seasons, and for me that was a definite step down.

Spoiler: show
Also season 5 really starts to suffer from character attrition. No villains were ever as good as Stringer and Avon. None of the child actors were as good as Wallace and Bodie and the others from season 1. None of the criminals was ever as relatable or complex as D. And fuck, the show suffered a lot once Omar was killed.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:55 pm 
 

I mean it wasn't the complex money in politics storyline or the heart-wrenching schoolkid storyline but to me it felt like a very realistic representation of what police and police departments do behind the scenes. It was more sensational than the dour affairs of the previous seasons but it never had me scratching my head and feeling like it was a plotline that didn't belong with the rest. I thought it was a great way to cap off the show, especially given that all of the underhanded efforts to reign in the murder didn't amount to anything in the end, further showing the absurdity of law enforcement using ineffectual means to combat drug violence.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:01 pm 
 

It just didn't feel realistic to me. Like maybe cops have invented serial killers that get national coverage to redirect huge amounts of money into a totally different case before (even though I doubt it), but everything else in the show seemed like the kind of stuff that might be happening in any major American city at any time. I still found a lot to like about season 5, and even the worst season of The Wire is still loads better than nearly every other cop show, but for me it's the one I least enjoy rewatching. Them's my onions and I'm stickin' to 'em!
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