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Texas King
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:55 am
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:04 pm 
 

IMO, with this album from 1978, Judas Priest changed heavy metal, mostly because they discarded a 'bluesy' element in guitar playing that early Black Sabbath(Iommi) had. And I would say that album was a true forerunner of NWOBHM and most of 80's heavy metal.

What do you think?

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Opus
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:39 pm 
 

Not as I remember it.
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Tanuki
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:06 pm 
 

I don't think Stained Class discarded the blues at all. Sure, it starts off with 'Exciter', I'll give you that. But after that it's pensive, somber, atmospheric, emotional. I mean, that solo in 'Beyond the Realms of Death' is a bluesy force of nature. I'd be more inclined to bill Sin After Sin as the creator of the streamlined "traditional" metal sound, with stuff like 'Call for the Priest' and 'Dissident Aggressor' eschewing the blues and going ham. (Though I happen to think Sin After Sin is astronomically weaker than Stained Class, and it's probably my least favorite classic Priest album in general. Sorry folks.)

Stained Class totally had a massive impact on the metal scene and specifically NWOBHM though, I'm not denying that.

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:56 pm 
 

I don't think it sold well upon release.

Total classic though.
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StainedClass95
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:14 am
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:03 pm 
 

I've seen the opinion that Judas Priest left/discarded/downplayed/etc the blues element in metal quite a bit, but I've never been too sure about that. As Tanuki mentioned, a lot of their early solos and a number of songs had a clearly bluesy feel to them. On the other hand, if I listen to Sabbath, Deep Purple, or the other, earlier acts, there's definitely a kind of jam feel a lot of times that the Blues (some other styles as well) often had that JP usually didn't. Even as early as Sad Wings, they definitely felt more divorced from older blues-worshipping rock bands, say Cream, than the previous works by Black Sabbath had been, yet there are just as clearly elements that tie them back to the blues all throughout their career. It's an interesting question certainly.

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:39 pm 
 

The fact that Tipton can play blues well makes his shredding a lot tastier.
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hakarl
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:03 am 
 

StainedClass95 wrote:
I've seen the opinion that Judas Priest left/discarded/downplayed/etc the blues element in metal quite a bit, but I've never been too sure about that. As Tanuki mentioned, a lot of their early solos and a number of songs had a clearly bluesy feel to them. On the other hand, if I listen to Sabbath, Deep Purple, or the other, earlier acts, there's definitely a kind of jam feel a lot of times that the Blues (some other styles as well) often had that JP usually didn't. Even as early as Sad Wings, they definitely felt more divorced from older blues-worshipping rock bands, say Cream, than the previous works by Black Sabbath had been, yet there are just as clearly elements that tie them back to the blues all throughout their career. It's an interesting question certainly.

Absolutely true, but at the same time, Sad Wings of Destiny also opened up some more rigid bluesy forms in metal. I like to think that Sad Wings was a very important inspiration for future metal bands that explored grander, more epic territories, and so helped pioneer power metal, for example. Stained Class might've been more influential to bread-and-butter NWOBHM fare, and especially speed metal, but Sad Wings of Destiny seems to me like a missing link between early metal, and bands like Iron Maiden, then Helloween, etc..
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caspian
Old Man Yells at Car Park

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:34 am 
 

Yeah I've kinda thought this in the past. It's not a terrible idea. I've tended to side more with Metallica, Slayer etc finally cutting out all the Led Zeppelin from their sound on their first albums as being the real turning point that properly codified metal, separated it from rock etc. But Stained Class and certainly that opening track are good candidates too.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:43 am 
 

In tracks like "Sinner" and then most of Stained Class, you can hear the birth of almost every later European power/heavy metal act - all your Gamma Rays, Iron Saviors and the likes. Those machine gun, no nonsense riffs and the anthemic choruses, with the at least lesser blues influence unlike your Deep Purples, Budgies and Sabbaths of that time period. Hugely influential stuff, albeit in a very early form there as is natural.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:24 am 
 

I think accept gave birth to the helloweens of the world in big part because of the major key drunken bar shout along choruses.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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Location: Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:30 am 
 

StainedClass95 wrote:
I've seen the opinion that Judas Priest left/discarded/downplayed/etc the blues element in metal quite a bit, but I've never been too sure about that. As Tanuki mentioned, a lot of their early solos and a number of songs had a clearly bluesy feel to them. On the other hand, if I listen to Sabbath, Deep Purple, or the other, earlier acts, there's definitely a kind of jam feel a lot of times that the Blues (some other styles as well) often had that JP usually didn't. Even as early as Sad Wings, they definitely felt more divorced from older blues-worshipping rock bands, say Cream, than the previous works by Black Sabbath had been, yet there are just as clearly elements that tie them back to the blues all throughout their career. It's an interesting question certainly.


I don't think it's in terms of not using blue notes from the scale, but rather the writing of the material itself. Both Glenn and KK could do bluesy but they also both did other stuff.

Of course, Stained Class is massively important in metal's development. Sad Wings... is, of course, massively important, too. I think they both helped solidify metal as a more album orientated genre rather than stuff with singles. Stained Class is important as none of its lyrical themes are "Hey, let's rock, babe!" it's a consistently dark album (even 'Better By You, Better than Me' takes on some significant, contextual darkness and is surprisingly tough for a love song). Instrumentally, while Priest had a great drummer on their previous album, it is clear that Les Binks is much more metal in the way that he plays. KK and Glen add more neoclassical stuff than they had done before and their interplay is ripping. The one-upmanship present would obviously inspire future bands like Maiden, Mercyful Fate, Trouble, you-name-em. Halford's performance, of course, would inspire many. Even the lyrics are very metal - "impaled with betrayal" and how about one of the most nebulous album artworks in the 1970s?

There's a lot of 'of coursing' here, you'll notice.

That consistent darkness must have been an influence - consciously or not - on many bands who thought they could do this metal stuff without the rock songs as a mood-breaker.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:03 pm 
 

the machine like aspect of metal is one of its fundamental traits and Priest in the 70s definitely pioneered the development of it. I have to mention virgin killer but especially taken by force by the scorpions as 2 other albums that were at the front of this development

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Terri23
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:18 pm 
 

Is Exciter the first example of metal using double bass drums? I know guys such as Barlow, Moon, Paice, Mason, Mitchell and Baker used them in the 60s and 70s, but I'm not sure anyone used them before Binks on Stained Class in metal.
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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:23 pm 
 

Cozy Powell and, probably, Philthy Animal were using them prior to Binks. Hell, wasn't there even double bass on Sin After Sin?

Edit: I need to check Philthy actually - I can't remember much of the debut.
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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:08 pm 
 

Yes.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:56 pm 
 

Acrobat wrote:
Cozy Powell and, probably, Philthy Animal were using them prior to Binks. Hell, wasn't there even double bass on Sin After Sin?

Edit: I need to check Philthy actually - I can't remember much of the debut.


I'm sure Overkill is the first use of double bass by Philthy.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:56 pm 
 

doesnt space truckin by deep purple have double bass?

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Lord_Jotun
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Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:07 pm 
 

Fireball definitely does.
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idunnosomename
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
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Location: England
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:10 pm 
 

Exciter's pedal riff leads directly to Painkiller, but otherwise it's just 70s crunchy heavy metal akin to Uriah Heep etc in its sound. Nothing as heavy as Dissident Aggressor.

Invader, Savage and Heroes End are totally bluesy rock and not that great songs either

(brilliant album overall, don't get me wrong)

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StainedClass95
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:14 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:46 pm 
 

Exciter reminds you of Uriah Heep? I'm sure the guys in JP were familiar with them, and I enjoy some of their early work, but I don't think I've ever been tempted to compare them like that. UH always struck me as more of a proto-Rush or a looser Deep Purple than, "crunchy heavy metal."

I agree that chunks of SC are still rooted in the blues, but Judas Priest were definitely making a leap around that time period. The exact size of the leap and perhaps with which album(s) are the main questions.

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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:29 pm 
 

Stained Class is an incredible album that was undoubtedly influential due to its quality. The musical traits I would pick out of it would be the heaviness and intensity of the guitars and vocals. That being said, Killing Machine came out only months later, and was a bit more of a template for ordinary NWOBHM. I think Stained Class was really a pinnacle and touchstone for many very creative bands who came later - not necessarily the most popular, but the themes, as Acrobat mentioned, are things that many of the more imaginative and innovative bands of the 80s. The ones who weren't all about "let's rock, babe!"

I disagree on the points about blues and double bass, though. Blues influences persisted later in Priest and other metal bands, and double bass was used before, during, and after this era by many hard rock and metal bands, wherever you draw the line... it just wasn't the only thing drummers did, because this was back when drummers played the drums, before they were replaced by drum machines, breathing metronomes, and Dave Holland.

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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:25 pm 
 

Exciter came before Overkill.
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Cosmic_Equilibrium
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Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:06 pm 
 

IMO Stained Class is definitely a milestone in metal and an absolute game changer for heavy music. Personally I think the NWOBHM and thrash scenes owe a huge debt to this record. My review of it below explains more:

https://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/Judas_Priest/Stained_Class/434/Cosmic_Equilibrium/339629

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chuggingpus
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:56 am
Posts: 125
Location: Vatican City
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:25 pm 
 

Terri23 wrote:
Is Exciter the first example of metal using double bass drums? I know guys such as Barlow, Moon, Paice, Mason, Mitchell and Baker used them in the 60s and 70s, but I'm not sure anyone used them before Binks on Stained Class in metal.


Priest had Dissident Aggressor on Sin After Sin. I think Exciter was Priest’s answer to this earlier Japanese basher https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u8qUA9p0bA0 for their Japanese tour they didn’t want to be outdone.

You also have this Budgie tune from 72 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TUqvECWXOdA and of course Deep Purple

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Eli_the_Destroyer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:37 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:21 am 
 

It's a bold opinion, and not exactly my own, but some of the most knowledge metalheads I know consider it to be the first true heavy metal album. Its a controversial theory, but if you think about it hard it does have some merit.


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Space_alligator
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:43 am
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:18 am 
 

The "S" albums as a whole did help shape metal beyond what Sabbath achieved.

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