Moxley/Robinson from NJPW BOSJ is must see.

Also, I am completely sold on Orange Cassidy.

It's kind of incredible how Moxley has become the biggest star in wrestling overnight simply by leaving WWE and going elsewhere. If anything, it's confirming everything that us WWE critics talk about in terms of how broken their creative system is and their complete inability to put on good shows or create new stars anymore.

Yes and no. It is also about the intrigue of seeing someone in a whole different setting. Whether he is a huge star or not we'll know for sure a year or two from now when the initial curiosity has dampened. Then we'll see if he has the same level of stardom, higher level of stardom or a less level of stardom. And to be fair WWE made him a star in the first place. Without WWE he probably wouldn't be over to this capacity today. But sure he probably was held back by many things in their system.

Hopefully he can take advantage of the positives WWE gave him and then at the same time know what it was that held him back over there and do something really great. He is off to a really good start.

But its always been the same when people leave WWE. Some really take advantage of it. In the post-WCW era I think Ravens one or two year run after him leaving WWE was perhaps the first great example of this.

I'm going to call bullshit on thinking that Moxley wouldn't be popular without WWE. The man is the most gifted natural promo since, at least, CM Punk. There is not a chance in hell that talents like the Young Bucks and Kenny Omega, three guys who are more popular with the wrestling fanbase than 90% of the WWE roster, get over without the WWE machine and Moxley doesn't.

Did the visibility help? Inarguably. Did his popularity hinge on the company that hasn't been able to make legitimate stars since 2003/2004 gave us Cena/Orton/Batista? Nope.

I think we are on the same page. I didn't mean to say he wouldn't be popular if not for WWE. I think he would. But this huge thing that surrounds him now I think wouldn't be there if not for WWE. We have to remember that prior to WWE he was very much a hardcore and death match wrestler and very few of those reaches huge stardom. And its not until the last few years where NJPW has been readily available for worldwide audiences and its not until very recently where we have a real American alternative in AEW (although we have obviously don't really know much about that yet). TNA was never a place where stars would go and develop. It was more a place where stars would go and then fade away little by little.

Ah, I see what you're saying. I still think he would have been a star with or without the TV-PG machine, though.

AEW has announced Moxley/Omega for All Out. I'm, uhhh...yeah. Talk about oddball booking. We have one guy who can talk and probably murder the other legitimately and one guy who's called a GOAT because he does anime flippy bullshit. This is going to be horrendous unless they add bells and whistles.

Really, Omega is the most annoying major talent since the early days of Cena, but at least Cena could run the ropes without looking like a doofus.

I also think Omega is very overrated as far as in ring work goes. Not my style at all. But he is a draw - there is no denying that. He would be better off being more grounded (in more ways than one).

I hope there will be counter trend in wrestling where we go back to strong, and more realistic type matches. Cody vs Dustin was awesome in that regard. NJPW is also good at this - at least as long as we deal with the Japanese talent. I'm so sick of the flippy style, no-selling and feeling like its a choreographed dance.

If nothing else, the two major companies being filled with flippy/spotty guys will open up a swathe of indie brawlers and hosses. We've already seen the hoss growth with Jeff Cobb, Brody King, Jonah Rock, Keith Lee, and a few others, so I'm eagerly awaiting the talent who catch on. Spike Trivet is going to be a big deal one day, and I can also see TK O'Reilly get back in touch with his early Roddy Piper cosplay schtick if/when he realizes he's the only member of the Kingdom with a real future.

Alexa Bliss is the main thing that draws me to WWE nowadays. There, I've said it. I dunno about you guys but I think she's got a killer combo: great looks, great mic skills, charismatic and solid in the ring.

This NJPW card from Dallas tonight has basically been outstanding thus far.

Way better than Fyter Fest, which turned out to be a bit of a disappointment in some ways.

NJPW is essentially the finest pro wrestling going right now.

Fyter Fest was really fun, but it clearly wasn't on the level of Double or Nothing, which is a current show of the year contender. I think everyone knew that going in though, so it's not like it's really a disappointment or anything. I anticipate Fight for the Fallen to be much the same, and then All Out's in August and that should be outstanding

That Dallas show was absolutely out of this world though. You wouldn't think the building was only 1/3 full by listening to the crowd, who were on fucking fire the entire night, and the matches ruled. Will Ospreay is very possibly the best wrestler in the world right now, and hopefully he gets a few big wins in this G1 tournament.

AEW has potential. Moxley is THE hottest thing in wrestling bar none.

I haven't been able to get invested in WWE programming since last year. This year's WrestleMania was the first I didn't watch live.

I tuned in this week and last week after the news about Bischoff and Heyman. The product is still terrible.

The 7/2 Raw from right after Heyman was announced as running the show was, from what I heard, actually pretty good. Raw this week was fucking garbage though. Bischoff hasn't taken over Smackdown yet, but apparently that'll start on next week's show, the first after Extreme Rules.

AEW does have potential, there’s no doubt about that. I really want to like them, I really do.

But I am 5 minutes into Fight For The Fallen, and it’s Sonny Kiss vs The Librarian as the opening match. Pure, unadulterated “sports entertainment” from a company that promised a “real sports” feel.

No doubt these two are fine wrestling talent. But I have a bit of a hard time believing this company will deliver something that resembles real sporting with this level of cartoon gimmickry.

I guess my expectations were off. I was expecting AEW to basically be an American New Japan, but in reality I should’ve had zero expectations prior to seeing any of their shows. I guess I bought too much into the hype.

I think it is remarkable at how many people have such huge expectations. Like you based on the content, or the people that already talks of a competitor to WWE. It reminds me of the hype blockbuster movies get and their subsequent awesome ratings on IMDB. People love to ride the hype wave even before they have seen or heard something. And once it actually comes along the excitement for it can often override the actual quality. usually we see this with, say, the latest Marvel movies or the really big fan boys finally getting a new album with their favourite artist. Judgement is blurred by the expectations.

I'd like for AEW to succeed but on my end I have been the opposite many others. I really dislike the Young Bucks type of wrestling and I know (though not from watching it myself) that their social media is full of humour. So I kind of expected it to be a company with to much comedy and to much spot-fest type wrestling. Now it has been better than just that but I still don't have high hopes. And I wonder how they will fare once they have to produce weekly television.

I think that Cody's matches have been the most talked about and highly regarded of their first two official shows says everything. Omega is exposed for being the limited worker he is outside of the NJPW system and the comedy only appeals to a small portion of the audience, but delivering a dramatic match with peaks and valleys will always make people take notice.

It's like I've said elsewhere and caught gruff over: "Hard Times" drew more than any moonsault could.

Eh,, maybe my expectations were off regarding AEW, sure. But I guess what sticks with me is the idea that they are selling this promotion as closer to real sport, but give us: Sonny Kiss, The Librarian Leva Bates, The Librarian Peter Avalon, Shoko Nakajima (gets a slight pass due to the inherent nature of joshi puro), The Dark Order, Luchasuarus, and Jungle Boy (and this is just from last night's show).

Don't misunderstand, I am not disparaging the skill of any of these performers, and their matches were all very good to excellent (as was most of the card, in terms of in-ring). But this is sports entertainment outlandishness. There was nothing on Fyter Fest or Fight For The Fallen that would convince me to buy All Out, or any PPV at this point.

Contrast that with New Japan's G1 29 Day 2 show, which aired on AXS at the same time, and I am just finishing the replay of. Cobb/Ishii-this is pro wrestling with a real sports feel, and that's saying nothing of Robinson/Tagaki, Moxley/Taichi, and White/Goto, all of which had a big match feel with important stakes both in and out of the tournament. Yeah, you had Naito/Yano and Taichi is an outlandish gimmick, but even those do not feel nearly as hokey as some of the stuff AEW is doing while claiming to be closer to real sporting.

I mean, the NJPW on AXS show basically delivers a PPV worthy show nearly every week. And I think that's what I'll stick to for my pro wrestling fix. I'll check out AEW on TNT when it kicks up in the fall, but now I have a clearer idea of what to expect and I know going in that it will probably not to be to my personal tastes. No big deal-there's always NJPW on AXS.

I think a big thing is the style of wrestling as well. Even the crazy gimmicks in NJPW has some sort of foundations in a more realistic wresting style. A style where one can easier suspend their disbelief. In AEW you have the kind of matches that has plagued the US independents for years. Namely super quick, high flying and no selling. There is no suspense that there is a fight going on it is more of an exhibition of acrobatic skills.

I saw two matches from the recent AEW show and the first was painful in this regard. Two examples: (1) Sammy Guevara (I'm guessing a heel) wrestled like a total baby face. He did everything the audience wanted him to do and it was all high flying and spectacular (without anyone selling the injuries). His major spell in the match was ended when Joey Janela (apparently a face) did the most heel thing by cutting Sammy off (thus not giving the audience what they wanted - i.e. another dive). And (2) the use of the middle finger. It's great in the right place - it can elicit awesome reactions. In this match we saw i-don't-know-how-many middle fingers being thrown. Every time to little or no reaction because the people in the match doesn't know when to do what to create the biggest reaction. Even having the same spot several times in a match (I think they did the middle finger 7 times or so) is so bad.

But this is the style that the founders of AEW love. While Shawn Michaels (one of the best ever) needed one super kick (or just the teasing of one) to gain a massive reaction The Young Bucks so 100 super kicks. Devaluing every single one of them. And this is why a more restrictive style will always last better. Whether it is the more hard hitting NJPW style or the WWE main event style (at least from a few years ago - I'm not watching much these days).

So silly gimmicks aside I think the general style of wrestling also is important. Comedy in NJPW works as a contrast and most is seriously executed. Comedy in AEW is not balanced by a serious product but by matches being exhibitions. The whole feel to AEW is more lightweight whether it is comedy or the in-ring style.

Aside from the first match on the Buy In and that unnecessary 6 man tag, I didn't think anything else on the Fight For the Fallen show was too offensive or silly. Not super remarkable but a better show than the last one at least. AEW does have potential, it's just too unfocused but hopefully that can improve with time.

Extreme Rules was a pretty good show, had several title changes though the everyone knew Brock was cashing in at the end. That's okay though cause Rollins wasn't doing anything for me as champ anyway.

I'm not going to judge AEW too harshly until they are on TV with normal PPVs. These last two feel like house shows. All In and DON were good.

SummerSlam was a bit boring. It was cool to see Trish Stratus wrestle again since she was an active wrestler and at the top of WWE's Women's division when I was a kid/teenager.

Goldberg squashing Ziggler seems to have been most people's favourite moment of the show. To think that a middle-aged Goldberg is one of the most interesting things about WWE in 2019... it really says a lot about the current state of the company.

Oh and Alexa and Nikki winning was fun and I'm enjoying their run as tag champions. Alexa Bliss is one of the best things about WWE, imo. That being said, it's painful to see Asuka and Kairi Sane being wasted. Once Io Shirai gets promoted to the main roster they'll probably waste her as well.

In modern day WWE, I don't think even Rock and Austin would reach their full potential. And tbh, even when they debuted in the mid-90s WWF they were Rocky Maivia and The Ringmaster, respectively. We all know both men are legends these days, but I doubt 99% of fans would have thought that fucking Rocky Maivia and The Ringmaster would have become two of the biggest legends of the business.

Really makes you think if some of the guys in WWE's current roster that you view as boring/plain might actually have a ton of charisma and WWE just doesn't let them talk or get a character that fits them. It's funny, when I was a kid people always told smarks that in WWE mic skills are the most important thing and not the workrate, and that's why guys like Benoit got stuck in the mid-card while guys like Cena got pushed to the moon... but nowadays it seems to be the opposite. The ones who are good on the mic are reduced to comic relief characters or something like that. Like Elias, for example.

WWE has focused more on workrate in the past 5 years or so, but what good is it to have a lot of good workers if the matches are either meaningless/filler and the booking is lousy? Watching fake fights without a good story or purpose on a 3 hour Raw and a 4 or plus hour PPV is torture, man. It's like WWE doesn't know what its identity is anymore and they're pretty much a more sanitised and mainstream version of an indy fed at this point...

I agree that watching 30 minute matches with no story or purpose is torture. Anymore I just watch the condensed highlights on YouTube of WWE. One problem with WWE today is that wins and losses aren't treated like they matter. People get title matches just for coming out and challenging the champion. The booking is also very inconsistent. There's one really good Raw for every 5 average par for the course shows. I'm not really expecting AEW to really turn out to be a viable alternative because they have too many small indy guys and not enough believable guys with an actual physique. Wrestling is supposed to be about suspension of disbelief, but two 150 lb guys just taking turns doing moves to each other with no psychology is so easy to see through and so far from what made wrestling so popular in mainstream culture for so many decades.

You’d be well off to watch New Japan. I believe they are delivering what you’re looking for.

This year’s G1 has been incredible.

Yes, I believe that's what fans mean with "50/50 booking". Everyone seems to have about the same star power, which isn't very high. Seth Rollins and Kofi Kingston simply don't feel like big stars. They'd be mid-carders at best in the 90s and 2000s WWE and would eventually get released after a few years and spend the rest of their careers at TNA, Japan or ROH. Also, dn't forget how finishers no longer are, you know, ACTUAL FINISHERS. Everyone kicks out of everyone's finisher these days. The trend began with the HBK vs. Taker WM matches. It's fine to have false finishes in a couple of main event matches throughout the year, but when you see people kicking out of a finisher a couple of times in 90% of the matches it becomes ridiculous and ruins the surprise factor as well as the credibility of said finisher. Batista was like the 3rd guy EVER to kick out of the Tombstone Piledriver at WM 23, which was in 2007 and Taker's been around since 1990 or so(!). But then more and more people began kicking out of the Tombstone Piledriver, which kinda ruined it. As for Lesnar, I remember Roman Reigns kicking out of like 5 F-5's in a match. Ridiculous.

Thing is, WWE's matches aren't really that great. They all have the same exact formula and are full of false finishes and spot fests. It's like WWE's style has become a watered down Puroresu and indy type of wrestling.

Most of the guys who are actually good on the mic such as Elias are basically comedy characters. Alexa Bliss has been booked very well, but she's a woman. Let's face it, as much as WWE tries to present itself as progressive, no one pays or tunes in specifically to watch the women there. So having Becky vs. Ronda vs. Charlotte main eventing this years WrestleMania was not a good thing, imo.

I feel like WWE began losing identity around the time Triple H got more power and Johnny Ace less. That's when NXT changed and WWE began poaching a LOT of indy talent, and when the average WWE match began changing its formula to what we have today.


NJPW is fine and all, but the shows are also long and the macthes are actually good and you don't want to miss a second, which gets you a bit tired after the 3rd match of the night.

I don't, and never will, buy that Rollins wouldn't be a big star. He was a big unsigned indie guy who became the big star in ROH and then was the big star of FCW/NXT before becoming one o fb the big stars on the main roster. Similar to Owens, really, in how he was a major star for every company that hired him before signing to WWE, so he was going to be a focal point one way or another. What out perceptions of stars are, though, are highly colored by the talent we grew up with and jaded because, well...WWE hasn't been targeting us for a while. They want younger fans, and toss the older ones a bone because they know that at least 2-3 million of them aren't going anywhere.

As for the finisher kickout festivals, that can actually be traced to the final days of King's Road and Kurt Angle, respectively. King's Road, as a style, necessitated the introduction of new match-ending moves thanks to the power creep common in Japanese fiction. Goku needs to go one level higher as Super Saiyin to beat the big bad alien attacking Earth, Kobashi needs to come up with the Burning Hammer to beat Kawada, etc. It became a bigger thing in the WWF around late 2001, as we'd see Jericho and Austin and Rock and Angle trade finishers galore to increase the drama as the audience was growing tired with the declining stories, but Angle ran hardcore with it as a style from 2002 onward. It's his biggest flaw, really, in that he began constructing matches around finisher trades and near-falls rather than letting them happen organically, and it became the go-to in ROH when the generation who came of age as Angle fans decided to use that layout as the "big match" structure.

If you think Rollins is bad? Check out Davey Richards as ROH World champ. Or most of the Progress roster the last 5 years. NOAH before Misawa's death, even. Rollins is tame, comparably, but he lacks the overt personality to really make it matter, and that's weird because he's so naturally sympathetic with his bumps and body language.

Decent timeline for WWE going Puro Zero, too. Trips wants people to see him as a huge deal, as a legend in the business, and knows the crowd who stopped caring tuned into ROH 2005-2007 and the indies and NJPW after 2010 or so. He signs those guys because he wants to get us to buy into him, into his product (and, let's face it, NXT when he was more involved was incredible), and into his legend.

He's like if Trump actually knew how to politic.

Well, maybe you're right. Tbh, it's hard to tell if someone even has what it takes anymore once they get to WWE's roster, since the booking and writing is so bad these days that they make everyone look plain and dull.

Well, of course they want younger fans, since wrestling's fanbase is cyclical and your average fan moves on once they feel like they're "too old" for wrestling. Even back in the TV-14 days they kept selling action figures to kids and the swearing and the controversial stuff didn't stop younger kids from watching Stone Cold and The Rock. But, thing is, WWE went back to PG in mid-late 2008 in order to cater to cater 100% to kids again in hope to sell more toys with their Mattel deal and such... but the ratings kept slowly falling throughout the years as did the PPV buyrates. Sure, WWE is financially healthy due to the Network, Saudi blood money and exploring untapped markets like the Indian and the Chinese one, but it's arguably at its lowest point in popularity in North America since 1994-1996 and possibly also other countries where it historically had a strong fanbase such as the UK, Australia, Canada, etc. But since WWE have been the only big game in town for nearly two decades now, their fall isn't as noticeable. Let's see how AEW does.

Whether Kofi or Rollins might have the charisma to be pretty big stars in them or not, the fact of the matter is, WWE hasn't done that great of a job of being believable at making them out to be big stars that we should tuen in to watch every week. Rollins is solid in the ring, but I don't care much for his character. Might be a personal problem of mine, but he was always my least favourite member of The Shield. My favourite has always been Ambrose. I also liked Reigns back in his Shield days, but ofc WWE had to sabotage his character once he became a babyface and the FOTC. This is something WWE has been doing for years: pick a tall good looking guy, turn him face, and make him a smiling and bumbling idiot who tells cringey jokes. This trend began with The Rock upon his return in the middle of the Invasion angle in 2001, where he stopped being the cool, slow talking guy who were 500 dollar shoes and shirts and would be a douche to both guys and girls. They turned him into basically a stereotypical popular jock that you ee in American high school dramas and made him a ladies man, including a make out session with Trish Stratus on TV. But eventually they dropped that and both didn't become an on-screen couple. Also, remember how in 2001-2002 Rock was starting to get some boos from the audience? WWE also tried to turn Lesnar into a bumbling smiling idiot with his brief face turn in late 2002. And also pulled something similar with Randy Orton in 2004 and even paired him up with Stacy Keibler. And Cena... well, I don't even have to explain. We all know by now what made fans turn on him and why kids and women respond much better to him than men do.

It's like to Vince it's really important to have a good looking guy. I guess because he feels that's the only way women and teenager girls will even bother watching wrestling.

Also, I'm not a fan of making Rollins and Becky a couple on TV either. Just because two wrestlers are dating in real life doesn't necessarily mean their relationship should also take over the WWE storylines. The whole "The Man" thing is getting cringey at this point and seems like a poor attempt of WWE at looking like they support feminism and progressive causes. As if Vince would truly care about that. Just look at how the women have historically been treated at WWE. It wasn't THAT long ago that bra and panties matches and sexualised photo shoots were a thing. It all feels disingenuous and like something WWE are only doing to keep the PG rating and the lucrative deals with sponsors going and also because nowadays it's the cool thing to do in the American media, making minorities and women main characters in movies, comics, tv shows, etc. And clearly WWE is trying to tap into that in order to get more accepted by mainstream and Hollywood. I seriously doubt Vince and his family truly care about such progressive causes. Sure, not a bad strategy to try and get more media attention and gain more fans... but it doesn't seem to be working. I feel like the only current WWE wrestlers that seem to truly be in touch with the current young generations are The New Day. I'm not a fan of The New Day, but clearly they must be doing something right since kids seem to love them.

Yes, Triple H's ego and insecurities are a very known thing. I do wonder if he'll actually take over once Vince steps down or dies. Everyone knows about the McMahons and Triple H, but there's other people with high positions in WWE. We just don't see them on TV. Like George Barrios, the co-president of WWE. Afaik he never appeared on Raw, SmackDown or on a PPV. Just like Johnny Ace didn't become an on screen character until the Summer of Punk storyline in 2011.

In the last few years, I've been seeing fans online claiming that WWE don't want to create huge stars anymore because they're afraid they'll become bigger than the company and leave to Hollywood after a couple of years instead of staying at WWE for years and also taking part in shitty WWE-made movies. I used to think that was just an absurd conspiracy theory, but I dunno man. I'm starting to believe it holds water. Vince is nuts and he seems to think WWE can't fall no matter what, even if ratings and buyrates go down a tad. That's what having no competition does, I guess. Although AEW is here now. But I don't think Vince has the stamina and drive to fight a war anymore. I also feel that he's probably too old to give a damn anymore and wont' care if his children and HHH eventually sell WWE to Disney once he dies. Vince isn't really a wrestling fan and sees WWE as more of an entertainment company, anyway. Didn't he praise Jericho and Foley when they first met him when they came to WWE and then criticised them once he saw their matches, which confused them, until Cornette came in and told them "actually, you see, Vince had never seen you wrestle before. He just signed you because we told him you were a great worker and thus suggested you to him".? Also, didn't he also enter the locker room one day, saw Raven and asked someone "who the hell hired Raven?". Gee, I wonder why his WWE career wasn't that memorable

I feel like, once Vince steps down or dies, there's gonna be some sort of succession fight behind the scenes and it's not gonna be pretty. Also, if internet rumours are anything to go by, it's said that there's tension between Shane and Triple H.

I'm glad Y2J won. I still need to watch the replay. Mox dropping off and having another fantasy football draft on Saturday kept me from watching it live.