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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 1354
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:54 pm 
 

Back in the 80's Metallica's more mature and serious, well to us at the time, lyrical structure and lack of cliche "I love you" stuff were a huge reason we loved them. That went for a lot of the thrash and that type of metal. And honestly, Halford being gay never even crossed my mind back then. But at the time I didn't listen to much of them as I thought they were lame compared to Metallica or Anthrax.

"Turbo? Fuck that poser shit put on Puppets!" would have been said.

Of course over the years my tastes have shifted and I'm not trying so hard to be a hard ass metal dude as I grew up.

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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9765
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:00 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
BastardHead wrote:
This is just standard Temple of Blood strategy here: make your implication incredibly obvious but never state it outright, and then backpedal and play dumb whenever it's interpreted the way it's clearly meant to be intended. Really standard tactics for the disingenuous.


This is standard BastardHead strategy: make personal attacks based on things that were not actually said and assume the worst about people you disagree with, even if you don't have any actual pesky evidence to back up what you say.


The bolded part is the important part and it's really all you've got going in your favor, and it's incredibly flimsy for anybody with even basic reading comprehension skills. That's your crutch, anything short of just openly saying the shitty part you know will upset people is plausible deniability and you're eternally off the hook. I've seen through your shit for years now, you're not outsmarting anybody.

Temple Of Blood wrote:
Megadeth, Pantera, Slayer


38 million, 9.1 million, and a two second google search has nothing concrete but at least 5 million between 91-13, and I think it's highly unlikely they picked up 45 million in the 80s to cover that ground.

But go ahead and keep saying that the sex in the lyrics was part of the reason they weren't as popular as a whole three other bands ever despite their immense prestige and popularity showcasing pretty definitively that it was at best a non-factor. Keep "trying not to think" about how icky gay sex is while listening to a song about sucking a really huge dick.
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DoomMetalAlchemist
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:10 am
Posts: 1839
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:33 pm 
 

Metallica was not even close to the only metal band in the 80s not singing about sex, and they weren't the first to shun that lyrical angle. Most non-hair bands languished in obscurity, or at best, were cult bands, and the hair bands were mega popular, and their hits (at least) were almost EXCLUSIVELY about sex (I said almost).

Metallica's appeal is their music. When I heard the song Master of Puppets it blew me away, because of the guitars and James' voice (the lyrics were a non-factor). James' voice is a great gateway to heavy music because it's sort of "extreme" to the average music listener but still full of melody, and easy to understand what he's saying. He doesn't sing in some crazy low voice like in death metal or some crazy high voice like in power metal. It's more relatable to the average person. Add to that that albums like Master of Puppets and And Justice For All had productions that made the guitars sound fucking MASSIVE. When I was a budding metal head and I first heard Slayer's Reign in Blood, I hated it. Not even necessarily for the actual songs, just the comparative-to-MOP weak production did the guitar riffs no favors to me. There's just something about that 80s Metallica album guitar tone that mesmerizes young metal fans. And the music, just like James voice, is extreme to the average music listener but on the other hand is more full of melody and far more hummable than the average "extreme" metal band.

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Back in the 80's Metallica's more mature and serious, well to us at the time, lyrical structure and lack of cliche "I love you" stuff were a huge reason we loved them. That went for a lot of the thrash and that type of metal. And honestly, Halford being gay never even crossed my mind back then. But at the time I didn't listen to much of them as I thought they were lame compared to Metallica or Anthrax.

"Turbo? Fuck that poser shit put on Puppets!" would have been said.

Of course over the years my tastes have shifted and I'm not trying so hard to be a hard ass metal dude as I grew up.


Well if you're just going to go 1986 vs 1986, of course Metallica wins. Let's throw Black Sabbath in there: Master of Puppets vs Turbo vs Seventh Star. Wow, Judas Priest and Black Sabbath sure suck, don't they, apparently? :lol:

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HamburgerBoy
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:40 am
Posts: 1710
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:09 pm 
 

Regarding Metallica above, as someone that got into metal in the 90s because of a dad with a decent CD collection, the non-sexual and "mature" lyrics were definitely part of the reason I got into them. Hearing, say, Van Halen at the time (i.e. elementary school) was kind of embarrassing, but Metallica was something much cooler and meant to be taken seriously.

I used to have this imagined "big 4 of dad metal" purely based on anecdotal perceptions, with no consideration of actual historical relations and before I even researched music on the internet, and it consisted of Led Zeppelin, Judas Priest, Motley Crue, and Def Leppard. I don't think of Judas Priest remotely in the category of the other three now, but at the time, the lyrical themes and other elements kinda kept me away. In fact, it wasn't until I joined an Iron Maiden forum and seeing so many people that appreciated Judas Priest so strongly that I actually bothered to check them out.

amelanchier wrote:
An agreement: The sexuality of Halford's lyrics was always obvious with songs like "Eat Me Alive." The homoeroticism specifically wasn't obvious, but then if it had been obvious it might not have been particularly erotic, no? At least, I always find playing with double meanings more interesting and evocative than straight Whitesnake-style lewdness.

A disagreement: Iron Maiden "family-friendly"?! This is the band that was accused with inspiring Satanist mayhem after _Number of the Beast_ came out. To be sure, the band came out against those interpretations, but it didn't stop them from playing with that imagery again.


I know there was some infamy around Number of the Beast, but it didn't really stick with them afaik. Steve Harris always explained that it was just a song about a dream he had, and rapidly abandoned shock value over their career (spitting blood and other silly KISS-tier stuff pre-Di'Anno, a single's art featuring a stabbed Margaret Thatcher during Di'Anno, and then just Number of the Beast after). The PMRC didn't even include Iron Maiden on their "filthy fifteen" list. I mean, yeah Iron Maiden's still edgy compared relative to your average Christian rock band, but I don't think they were ever close to cutting edge of shock value. Even Eddie is ultimately kinda cute in a Goosebumps book way.

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_flow
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 355
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:41 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
the song HBfL was written by Glenn Tipton. But a reputable magazine like Kerrang!!11111!!111 would know that and wouldn't just publish pure BS, amirite?


One erroneous fact hardly makes the whole argument invalid.

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at the gaytes
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:07 pm
Posts: 447
Location: Bangladesh
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:45 pm 
 

HamburgerBoy wrote:
Regarding Metallica above, as someone that got into metal in the 90s because of a dad with a decent CD collection, the non-sexual and "mature" lyrics were definitely part of the reason I got into them. Hearing, say, Van Halen at the time (i.e. elementary school) was kind of embarrassing, but Metallica was something much cooler and meant to be taken seriously.


Mainstream rock is usually associated with lyrics about sex, partying, troubled relationships and doing drugs, so considering the usual disdain of metal for the mainstream, it's natural that many metal bands tried to create a more serious image distanced of the likes of AC/DC and Motley Crue. Metal lyrics are predominantly negative and there's usually nothing shocking to say about sex and relationships, so I prefer my sex lyrics to be about corpse fucking, women being sexually degraded or sick paraphilias

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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 8460
Location: York, North Yorkshire
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:38 pm 
 

You know, I probably just want to rant. But I feel that the vast majority of rock music and metal, as the logical successor to early rock 'n' roll (ask Lemmy), is inherently sexual in natural even when it's not bands singing about their boners. I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock. Not just that but live music should hit you in the genitals. It might not if you don't use good amplifiers and your modelling shit goes straight out of the PA. But good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS. And, sure, while some of the more extreme metal out there might divorce metal for its more sexually orientated roots it's still this primal, visceral thing... very sexual (even when it's just sweaty dudes in the audience). I would say metal is just as much about the bollocks as it is about the brains.

Judas Priest singing about their dicks is one of many reasons why they're better than Maiden. :P
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LVB
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 172
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:00 pm 
 

Temple of Blood: We all know that you do not approve of homosexuality. Don't deny it. Who cares? Moves on... But your claim that JP is less popular that IM because of GAYNESS is a claim that will not stand. You cannot justify this claim so STFU. This thread inspired me to put on Defenders of the Faith, so thanks for that, Thread Starter.

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Tanuki
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:36 pm
Posts: 377
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:26 pm 
 

Acrobat wrote:
You know, I probably just want to rant. But I feel that the vast majority of rock music and metal, as the logical successor to early rock 'n' roll (ask Lemmy), is inherently sexual in natural even when it's not bands singing about their boners. I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock. Not just that but live music should hit you in the genitals. It might not if you don't use good amplifiers and your modelling shit goes straight out of the PA. But good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS. And, sure, while some of the more extreme metal out there might divorce metal for its more sexually orientated roots it's still this primal, visceral thing... very sexual (even when it's just sweaty dudes in the audience). I would say metal is just as much about the bollocks as it is about the brains.

Judas Priest singing about their dicks is one of many reasons why they're better than Maiden. :P

If no one has "good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS" as their new sig, I'm gonna be disappointed.

You're spot on, 'Bat. (This was my exact argument for why I like The Great Kat lol). If anything, I'd add that there are tons of extreme metal bands that like their pleasures of the flesh, too. Belphegor and all of their nun arses. Pretty much the entire South American black metal scene, most notably Sextrash. Black Dahlia Murder has Deflorate, and on it appears to be a song about getting sucked off by a giant spider. And the best example of metal being primarily about death and power (*COUGH*), Thanatos - Realm of Ecstasy:

Forever forced to serve the lust of one another
Forever forced to fuck the shit out of each other
What at first seemed close to heaven, turned out to be your hell
As a servant of Queen Lilith, forever you shall dwell

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9982
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:21 pm 
 

Mellifleur wrote:
Homoeroticism in Priest lyrics is a pointless thing to analyze or discuss, especially on this metal forum for analyzing and discussing anything related to metal. I don't care about it at all and neither should anyone else, because it's irrelevant and even if it was relevant it would be bad and shameful. I'm going to post several more times so you guys know how meaningless this conversation is and how much I'm not bothered!

Yeeeeep :lol:

I believe we call this "concern trolling".

BastardHead wrote:
The bolded part is the important part and it's really all you've got going in your favor, and it's incredibly flimsy for anybody with even basic reading comprehension skills. That's your crutch, anything short of just openly saying the shitty part you know will upset people is plausible deniability and you're eternally off the hook. I've seen through your shit for years now, you're not outsmarting anybody.

Also this

"I'm not saying that the homosexuality hurt Priest's popularity, but I'm also saying that it did, and also that it's normal and expected that it did, and it's also not inflammatory to say this at all, because homophobia is totally normal you guys."

I'm glad that this homophobic piece of shit is not fooling anyone, at least.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9765
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:17 am 
 

Acrobat wrote:
I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock. Not just that but live music should hit you in the genitals. It might not if you don't use good amplifiers and your modelling shit goes straight out of the PA. But good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS.


I don't have room in my sig for quotes but god damn if this isn't the most quote-siggable collection of sentences this forum has seen in years.
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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 183
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:28 am 
 

Did anybody ever notice how homoerotic head banging is (even experienced hookers could be jealous of the energy displayed)? Besides Muslim prayer the most homoerotic activity, I reckon.

Just joking, of course.

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ModusOperandi
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 12:52 am
Posts: 1418
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:16 pm 
 

^ Did you ever notice how none of your attempts at being humorous or clever work?
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at the gaytes
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:07 pm
Posts: 447
Location: Bangladesh
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:27 pm 
 

Acrobat wrote:
I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock.


:???:

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Bates
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:28 pm
Posts: 81
Location: South Sound, WA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:33 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Acrobat wrote:
I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock. Not just that but live music should hit you in the genitals. It might not if you don't use good amplifiers and your modelling shit goes straight out of the PA. But good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS.


I don't have room in my sig for quotes but god damn if this isn't the most quote-siggable collection of sentences this forum has seen in years.


To paraphrase, if it doesn't feel like you're playing with yourself, you're doing it wrong. And anyone who doesn't see the sexual references through most metal has either a poor understanding of metaphor, or some damn good blinders. Yes, the glam/hair stuff in the 80s and numerous sub-genres since, were very blatant about it. One does not have to scream "I love to fuck!" at the top of their lungs to let the world know they do, indeed, love to fuck.
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Acrobat wrote:
I dunno, I'm a guitarist and it always feels like playing a giant cock... good music hits you HARD in the GENITALS.

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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 183
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:32 pm 
 

ModusOperandi wrote:
^ Did you ever notice how none of your attempts at being humorous or clever work?


Totally works. These joyless stick up the arse replies may be predictable (here) but they're always amusing.

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idunnosomename
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
Posts: 427
Location: England
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:51 pm 
 

I think there's a lot more to look at in how Halford presented his homosexuality in Priest's lyrics and while this isn't horrible, it's hardly the final word.

I agree Jawbreaker is about more than sucking dick though. It really isn't literally about sucking a big cock. Although that probably was the inspiration for the title, the lyrics branch out into more general feelings of pent-up frustration.

It's also an important point, as mentioned, that the key song of their allegedly leather-fetish derived image, Hell Bent for Leather, was written by Tipton alone. Though the whole band knew Rob was gay (as did EVERYONE ELSE essentially) and he probably was the agent for the costume change for the band.

Thing I've never understood is Eat Me Alive. It does seem like a male dom on a female sub. You can't really rape a man spread-eagled against a wall. Unless you break his legs?

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ModusOperandi
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 12:52 am
Posts: 1418
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:36 pm 
 

HaPoStaPu wrote:
ModusOperandi wrote:
^ Did you ever notice how none of your attempts at being humorous or clever work?


Totally works. These joyless stick up the arse replies may be predictable (here) but they're always amusing.

Quite the contrary, I take immense joy in calling out Schrodinger's Douchebag, which is apparently all you have to offer.

You just also happen to really fucking suck at it. :lol:
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RakdosWarlord
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:26 am
Posts: 171
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:13 pm 
 

It's kinda old news. We have known Rob Halford is gay for ages now, I don't think it's a big deal really. I'm glad for those who find representation in his music though.

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emperorjvl
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:10 am
Posts: 141
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:47 am 
 

RakdosWarlord wrote:
It's kinda old news. We have known Rob Halford is gay for ages now, I don't think it's a big deal really. I'm glad for those who find representation in his music though.


+1. My first thought was "kinda late to the party, aren't you, Kerrang? :rolleyes"

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wednesdaysixx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:09 pm
Posts: 169
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:04 am 
 

RakdosWarlord wrote:
It's kinda old news. We have known Rob Halford is gay for ages now, I don't think it's a big deal really. I'm glad for those who find representation in his music though.



This.
If you look for something in lyrics, you can generally find it. Wasn’t that the go-to counter for the PMRC hearings? Halford wrote the lyrics across decades and then came out and people since go “Oh, so x isn’t about a, it’s about b. Huh...”.
If it means more people get into Priest, or metal as a whole or find something to hold on to or relate to then awesome.
This Kerrang! article seems to be out of nowhere though.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9982
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:58 pm 
 

HaPo, Modus: chill out, brehs

idunnosomename wrote:
You can't really rape a man

Let me stop you right there

Yes, you fucking can. End of story.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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tahu157
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 pm
Posts: 670
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:35 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
idunnosomename wrote:
You can't really rape a man

Let me stop you right there

Yes, you fucking can. End of story.

Pretty egregious half quote ya got there. The whole quote is:
idunnosomename wrote:
You can't really rape a man spread-eagled against a wall. Unless you break his legs?

He wasn't spouting any "men can't be raped" bs he was just pointing out that the sex-position described in the song is significantly more difficult to perform on a man than on a woman. And following from that logic it seems to him that the sub in song is likely a woman, as puzzling as that would be given Halford's sexuality.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9982
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:38 pm 
 

tahu157 wrote:
Pretty egregious half quote ya got there. The whole quote is:

The whole quote doesn't matter because guess what, a man can be raped regardless of the position he's in, and regardless of his rapist's gender, and I can't believe I have to explain this...
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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tahu157
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 pm
Posts: 670
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:19 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
The whole quote doesn't matter because guess what, a man can be raped regardless of the position he's in, and regardless of his rapist's gender, and I can't believe I have to explain this...

To be perfectly clear, I am in total agreement with your stance and no you don't actually have to explain it. However, your initial post sounds very much like you are unfairly insinuating that IDSN's stance on the rape of men is some "boys can't be raped" nonsense which is very clearly not the thought IDSN was trying to convey. Apparently that wasn't quite your intent, but regardless rather than swearing at him and leaving your response open to misinterpretations like mine, you could have countered with exactly what you said here, that the gender and position don't matter because rape can take many many forms, and there would have been no misunderstanding. Such an approach would have also benefited immensely from the whole quote, which is why I think that it DOES matter quite a bit.

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Conan Troutman
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:29 am
Posts: 283
Location: South Yorkshire, United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:33 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
tahu157 wrote:
Pretty egregious half quote ya got there. The whole quote is:

The whole quote doesn't matter because guess what, a man can be raped regardless of the position he's in, and regardless of his rapist's gender, and I can't believe I have to explain this...


What if he's up to his waist in quick sand with a balaclava covering his mouth?

Of course the whole quote matters. It's the act of a coont who deliberately edits a post to completely change the meaning of that post. And you don't HAVE to explain anything. There is nothing to explain.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9982
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:18 pm 
 

tahu157 wrote:
To be perfectly clear, I am in total agreement with your stance and no you don't actually have to explain it. However, your initial post sounds very much like you are unfairly insinuating that IDSN's stance on the rape of men is some "boys can't be raped" nonsense which is very clearly not the thought IDSN was trying to convey.

This makes no sense. If you're suggesting that the position matters to determine whether or not a man can be raped, then... yes, that's exactly what he's saying. Christ.

He even had to say "unless you break his legs?". Like that is relevant.

Conan Troutman wrote:
What if he's up to his waist in quick sand with a balaclava covering his mouth?

What if we're all brains in a jar and nothing is real? This is disingenuous trolling.

Quote:
Of course the whole quote matters. It's the act of a coont who deliberately edits a post to completely change the meaning of that post. And you don't HAVE to explain anything. There is nothing to explain.

I didn't change any meaning, "coont". Now fuck off.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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StryckenFromHistory
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:27 pm
Posts: 270
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:32 pm 
 

edit
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Last edited by StryckenFromHistory on Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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idunnosomename
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
Posts: 427
Location: England
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:04 pm 
 

Of course, could be no penetration involved and he's forcing frotting spread-eagled to the wall. is that better?

It's just it's contextualised with "rod of steel injects".

Everyone knew Rob was gay in the 80s because well, did you see him hanging out with girls? It was barely a revelation to anyone.
But I wonder if he did sometimes write his 80s lyrics to be about both gay and straight sex, particularly if it would get the mainstream appeal Priest were after then in the US.

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tahu157
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 pm
Posts: 670
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:11 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
tahu157 wrote:
To be perfectly clear, I am in total agreement with your stance and no you don't actually have to explain it. However, your initial post sounds very much like you are unfairly insinuating that IDSN's stance on the rape of men is some "boys can't be raped" nonsense which is very clearly not the thought IDSN was trying to convey.

This makes no sense. If you're suggesting that the position matters to determine whether or not a man can be raped, then... yes, that's exactly what he's saying. Christ.

He even had to say "unless you break his legs?". Like that is relevant.

No, I literally just agreed with you that position doesn’t matter. In the part of my post you quoted above. To be honest your responses are making me a little skeptical that you’re really reading what anyone is writing.

I don’t want to put any words in IDSN’s mouth but my interpretation of his post was that he has a mental picture of the scene described in the song that involves penetrative rape specifically which would in fact be very difficult to do to a man if his back is up against a wall, unless his legs are broken. Does that interpretation fail to consider the possibility of other types of rape? Sure, but that is really not the same thing as making a declaration that men can’t be raped or that it can only be called rape if he was in a certain position. Honestly the post isn’t very offensive at all. To assume that his post was meant to pointedly restrict the definition of rape is pretty unfair at best.

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idunnosomename
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
Posts: 427
Location: England
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:07 pm 
 

I mean if it helps I have no experience whatsoever of raping a man spread eagled against the wall with my rod of steel, I could be very mistaken as to the mechanics

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9982
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:16 pm 
 

tahu157 wrote:
No, I literally just agreed with you that position doesn’t matter. In the part of my post you quoted above. To be honest your responses are making me a little skeptical that you’re really reading what anyone is writing.

On the contrary. I am reading what is written, and actually understands the meaning behind the words instead of making excuses. You are being both condescending and obtuse here.

If you say that "a man can't be raped while in spread eagle unless his legs are broken", you are, in fact, restricting the definition of rape to only penetrative (receiving) rape. It's amazing that you can't see that.

If idunnosomename had written, "a man can't be penetrated while in spread eagle", then there would be no problem. But that's not what he wrote. Perhaps he meant to say that, and he chose his words poorly. That's possible. But he still said that a man can't be raped in that position (which is false), and his "added" context does not excuse the poor wording here, because it's still wrong regardless, and I'm not going to apologize for pushing back on that.

Quote:
Does that interpretation fail to consider the possibility of other types of rape?


Exactly and that's the problem. Glad we agree~

Quote:
Sure, but that is really not the same thing as making a declaration that men can’t be raped or that it can only be called rape if he was in a certain position.

Sigh.

Look. It's a bit like saying, "a woman can't really be raped by a man without a penis". That would be factually restricting the definition of rape here. And then if I pushed back on that, by pointing out that of course she fucking can (hell, a woman can be raped by another woman), would you disingenuously go "wahh that's not fair" or would you continue to be deliberately obtuse?

Edit: well, see below. I was right, and idunnosomename seems to think the only way to rape a man is by penetrating him. This is very, very wrong.

idunnosomename wrote:
I mean if it helps I have no experience whatsoever of raping a man spread eagled against the wall with my rod of steel, I could be very mistaken as to the mechanics

Bruh... Rape is non-consensual sex. It's not limited to being forcibly penetrated. A man can be forced to receive, or give, oral sex. That's rape. A man can be forced to penetrate a man or a woman against his consent. That's also rape.

Please educate yourself https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... _sec2title
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Von Cichlid wrote:
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tahu157
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 pm
Posts: 670
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:35 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
On the contrary. I am reading what is written, and actually understands the meaning behind the words instead of making excuses. You are being both condescending and obtuse here.
I apologize for the tone. From my perspective it seemed very much like you were ignoring everything I wrote and that was frustrating.

Morrigan wrote:
If you say that "a man can't be raped while in spread eagle unless his legs are broken", you are, in fact, restricting the definition of rape to only penetrative (receiving) rape. It's amazing that you can't see that.

If idunnosomename had written, "a man can't be penetrated while in spread eagle", then there would be no problem. But that's not what he wrote. Perhaps he meant to say that, and he chose his words poorly. That's possible. But he still said that a man can't be raped in that position (which is false), and his "added" context does not excuse the poor wording here, because it's still wrong regardless, and I'm not going to apologize for pushing back on that.

Of course the wording is still wrong. I'm not really contesting that and I hope I haven't said anything that makes it seem that way. I just don't think that accidentally implying something problematic should be treated as the same offence as outright stating something problematic. At least not while there's room to give someone the benefit of the doubt (I explain my thought process on that below). As I said above, a calm and educational response would have sufficed but your opening move was an agitated punch.

Morrigan wrote:
Look. It's a bit like saying, "a woman can't really be raped by a man without a penis". That would be factually restricting the definition of rape here. And then if I pushed back on that, by pointing out that of course she fucking can (hell, a woman can be raped by another woman), would you disingenuously go "wahh that's not fair" or would you continue to be deliberately obtuse?

I think I can kinda see where you're coming from now and I agree the counterexample makes it seem a lot more obviously wrong. As for me and where I'm coming from, I've just been trying to reverse engineer IDSN's post to figure out his thought process. I asked myself what factors would lead him to believe that the rape of a man spread eagle against a wall would be implausible. The answer I came up with was that he must be pretty sure that the song specifically refers to penetrative rape because of its lyrics. From there I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he doesn't actually have a narrow definition of rape, he's probably just convinced that a very specific variety of rape is occurring in the song and didn't feel like it was necessary to clarify that. Maybe that's just rationalizing the problem though, I don't know.

Anyway, I think I've said all that I want to say here. I'm done arguing.

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Conan Troutman
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:29 am
Posts: 283
Location: South Yorkshire, United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:19 am 
 

Vet - please don't feed your dog chocolate.

Morrigan - can I just stop you at "dog". Wow, just wow, a vet telling people not to feed their dogs. I saw through that one.

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StryckenFromHistory
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:27 pm
Posts: 270
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:54 am 
 

Shame Tahu cowed to her
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Zodijackyl
63 Axe Handles High

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 7490
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:15 pm 
 

idunnosomename wrote:
But I wonder if he did sometimes write his 80s lyrics to be about both gay and straight sex, particularly if it would get the mainstream appeal Priest were after then in the US.


What's the difference? He's not singing about the person sucking his dick, he's singing about getting his dick sucked. That's Jawbreaker, but Eat Me Alive could be a pussy-eating anthem, even with a gay man singing it. Songs about sex don't need to be gay or straight, and Judas Priest is living proof of that, where countless people have taken these songs as a celebration of overt sexuality, however they prefer it. Sex is sex, and there's a lot in common no matter who you're doing it with. Halford's lyrics were ambiguous, and could be enjoyed as straight, gay, or somewhere else on the rainbow. They're about sex, not orientation.

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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
Posts: 5369
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:33 pm 
 

idunnosomename wrote:
Unless you break his legs?

That doesn't sound like a convincing barrier at all.

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Subverter
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:32 pm
Posts: 46
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:31 am 
 

Conan Troutman wrote:
Vet - please don't feed your dog chocolate.

Morrigan - can I just stop you at "dog". Wow, just wow, a vet telling people not to feed their dogs. I saw through that one.

God help us all if the veterinarian was also Palestinian in that scenario.
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kluseba wrote:
It's baffling how often abusive men manage to be in relationships while true gentlemen often remain single for prolonged periods of time.


Last edited by Morrigan on Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Permanent banned: self-admitted troll account (check profile)

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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
Posts: 1615
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:26 pm 
 

For the record? Any individual can be thrown spread eagle against a wall. Y'all need to get out more.
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Subverter
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:32 pm
Posts: 46
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:36 pm 
 

acid_bukkake wrote:
Ya'll cowards ain't even getting violently sodomized against walls in your free time
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kluseba wrote:
It's baffling how often abusive men manage to be in relationships while true gentlemen often remain single for prolonged periods of time.

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