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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1318
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:05 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Manic Maniac wrote:
Trump is not even a neo-con, he's a business democrat. He has done nothing fascistic.


Yeah. Riling up his base against a certain demographic of people isn't fascistic at all. Nor is locking people from that specfic demographic up in camps for an indefinite amount of time without basic care, separating children from parents, causing irrevocable damage to their development, or letting a kid die here and there. Nothing fascistic about it.

Fascism can also only mean one specific thing and there is definitely no way to categorize fascistic things by severity.


Guess what? All the things you listed are things that the US has done, or similar, before (or under) different presidents and it wasn't fascist then and it isn't now. It's like saying waging war is fascist because fascist countries waged war 80 years ago. Unless of course you by fascism mean "anything that is vile and evil" (as most people seem to think it means) but then the expression means fuck all except as a invective.

Fascism was a very definite political movement in Europe, specifically Italy, and really little of what you say had anything to do with it (more than any other ideology that overstepped its boundaries, killed people, tortured people etc). Fascism was first and foremost corporatist (taking from its roots in left wing) and secondly strongly culturally nationalistic (not based on race thinking which would have been impossible in Italy considering their heterogeneous population). Remember national socialism is a different thing, related but different in that it has a whole other base for its political ideas (blood and soil - race and homeland). Fascism was also anti-democratic, anti-liberal and paligenetic and authorotarian. It was hugely statist - "all inside the state - nothing outside the state".

If we are to seriously look at Trumps relations to actual fascist ideology I'd say the only parts where he actually comes close are that he to is paligenetic and he tends to lean towards a culturally nationalistic approach. He has little to nothing of the things that most strongly represents fascism (i.e. corporatism and statism).

What he is however is plump and ego-centered and I think that is the main gripe people have with him. When others started to build the wall in the border I heard no loud protests (yes folks parts of it existed pre-Trump). Both Bush and Obama wrecked havoc in the middle east and while critiqued it's nothing close to what Trump has received for being plump in his communication with China and North Korea (or Denmark!). And let's not speak of Guantanamo.

I don't particularly like it but I think we'll see more of Trump-like leaders all around (left, right and center in politics) because even though they seem ill-fitted and keep saying things that should make them get into trouble they tend to get through to people. They speak in a manner that "ordinary people" will understand.

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Mellifleur
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:59 pm 
 

The fact that the US has been doing fascistic things before Trump under previous administrations is actually an argument *for* the notion that Trump is leading us down a fascistic path, not an argument against, brohambulance. :P

You got some other things wrong too. Fascism has right wing roots, being rooted in conservative reaction against enlightenment principles of equality and rationalism and the modern labor movement which aimed to place economic and political power in the hands of the working class and take it out of the hand of traditional and capitalist elites. Going by your logic feudalism is a left wing ideology because it "incorporates" peasants into the estates. :lol: Just because someone says a group of people should work together doesn't mean they are progressive radical feminists. Trump is a reactionary, and definitely opposed to equality and rationalism (and even basic rationality :P ). Fascism isn't corporatist in the sense that is described in the doctrine of fascism (that document is largely fraudulent and never represented a real political program). Historical fascist economies never had a well planned structure and evolved ad hoc. The capitalist elites of the old regimes always entered power sharing arrangements with the ruling parties and pursued profit like normal. Since they were also war economies they did enjoy a lot of government contracts. So, the fact that Trump isn't building a planned economy doesn't mean he isn't taking the country on a fascist course. However, fascist leaders almost always use the state to personally enrich themselves through their privately owned businesses, and if you've been following the news lately that may sound familiar. That's not unique to fascist countries, obviously, but hilarious for this conversation! You are right to mention that fascism is a palingenetic ideology, but it's weird how you don't see the connection between that and MAGA. Fascism is about restoring the nation to an imaginary golden age and this process can only be accomplished by placing power in the hands of the party and its leader with the messianic will to enact the change. The obstacle is always internal enemies who hate the nation for no rational reason. These things are regular Republican party/Trump/Fox News talking points. These are a few points of comparison I can make off the top of my head. Other megasmarts on this forum can definitely think of more.

Also, saying people are wrong to criticize Trump for doing wrong things because they didn't criticize Obama or W for doing them is wrongheaded as well. A lot more people are aware of the bad things going on nowadays than there were before because Trump is more open and buffoonish about it. You can't blame people for not realizing that the cool and well spoken Obama was actually a soulless killer. Democratic presidents in general do a better job at the PR side of the presidency because they understand that their job is to put a pleasant face on the functions of empire. Republicans screw things up by getting too blatantly sexually aroused by the cruelty they inflict. The fact that more people are wise to what's going on is a good thing. Only someone apologizing for Trump would argue they are wrong for finally wising up.
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TheGrimWombat
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Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:03 pm 
 

Mellifleur wrote:
Fascism, being rooted in conservative reaction against enlightenment principles of equality.


Yes.
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:17 am 
 

TheGrimWombat wrote:
Sure, if you consider, like...North Korea communist.

It was literally explicitly communist until the mid-90's when it was exchanged for Juche which itself is just Stalinism mixed in with wacky Korean mysticism.

Watch this short series which gives a full-throated answer to the question "is Trump a fascist?":

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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TheGrimWombat
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Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:14 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
TheGrimWombat wrote:
Sure, if you consider, like...North Korea communist.

It was literally explicitly communist until the mid-90's when it was exchanged for Juche which itself is just Stalinism mixed in with wacky Korean mysticism


What has actually ever been “communist” about North Korea other than their Soviet aesthetics? Honestly.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:06 am 
 

Through state seizure and continued control of all industry and agricultural in the country? North Korea retains control of all land within its borders and can appropriate it at will without compensation or even reason. There's a reason tankies are so quick to team up with Juche gangers and Maoists. They all excercise a similar brand of authoritarian state-run communism. Plus, NoKor has a series of workers councils that direct production that's owned by the people.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:23 am 
 

Mellifleur wrote:
You got some other things wrong too. Fascism has right wing roots, being rooted in conservative reaction against enlightenment principles of equality and rationalism and the modern labor movement which aimed to place economic and political power in the hands of the working class and take it out of the hand of traditional and capitalist elites. Going by your logic feudalism is a left wing ideology because it "incorporates" peasants into the estates. :lol: Just because someone says a group of people should work together doesn't mean they are progressive radical feminists.


Its not that I claim they just had left wing roots I just didn't mention the right wing tradition specifically. Though the palingenetic stand and cultural nationalism is obviously of the right. And as you said conservative reaction to certain movements of thought in the enlightenment. It may sound like what the fascists themselves claimed but it truly was some sort of mix between left and right and while it may not have been all that successful (at least not ultimately) they were clearly a sort of third position - neither the right nor the left felt really at home with them.

Quote:
Fascism isn't corporatist in the sense that is described in the doctrine of fascism (that document is largely fraudulent and never represented a real political program). Historical fascist economies never had a well planned structure and evolved ad hoc. The capitalist elites of the old regimes always entered power sharing arrangements with the ruling parties and pursued profit like normal. Since they were also war economies they did enjoy a lot of government contracts. So, the fact that Trump isn't building a planned economy doesn't mean he isn't taking the country on a fascist course.


Well, it was their goal even though they may not have done as much as they could to achieve it. In the same way the communist countries have never achieved their goal of a classless society but that is their goal. Trumps goal was never corporatist. I see him as someone with autarkic leanings and national liberal tendencies to achieve what he wants.

Another point I failed to mention was that the fascist state in practice was very much imperial in their economic policies. So far I feel Trump is trying to to the opposite thing, at least in rhetoric, even though the US as a whole has been good about invading other countries and use their resources for their own needs before (but I am not well read on this point so please correct me if I'm wrong). He did have that spell when he spoke about destroying ISIS but I don't know what actually happened there (as we know he talks a lot!).

Quote:
You are right to mention that fascism is a palingenetic ideology, but it's weird how you don't see the connection between that and MAGA. Fascism is about restoring the nation to an imaginary golden age and this process can only be accomplished by placing power in the hands of the party and its leader with the messianic will to enact the change.


Except I clearly wrote that: "[i]f we are to seriously look at Trumps relations to actual fascist ideology I'd say the only parts where he actually comes close are that he to is paligenetic and he tends to lean towards a culturally nationalistic approach."

My main gripe in general is of course to refer to Trump as fascist even though he has little in common with actual fascism. people just use that word because it is used to describe whatever one finds awful, inhuman and the like. Why not just call him for what he is? There is no need to try to fit him into a political ideology from a hundred years ago. He isn't fascist and never was.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:27 am 
 

Watch Cody Johnson's videos above. "Trumpism" is remarkably redolent of Mussolini's brand of facism, and comparing the two is apposite, if a bit reductive. Hitler comparisons to Trump, however, have little value right now.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:24 am 
 

Telling people to leave the country if they don't support the government, calling for people to be fired if they don't sing the national anthem, calling for people to be fired if they don't swear the pledge of allegiance, why is it even a debate...
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Manic Maniac
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:30 am 
 

Dude these children have been in the same care under Trump as they have under previous presidents. There is no evidence the adults they came with are their parents and they could be child traffickers. We have to split them up for the children's own safety. This is why we shouldn't have open borders.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:52 am 
 

Manic Maniac wrote:
Dude these children have been in the same care under Trump as they have under previous presidents. There is no evidence the adults they came with are their parents and they could be child traffickers. We have to split them up for the children's own safety. This is why we shouldn't have open borders.

Am I just incredibly tired or is this one of the most appalling things ever written on this forum?

On the plus side, this guy did an excellent job proving how Trump's rhetoric is empirically fascistic. Obama's "child separation policy" was exclusively for immigrants who committed federal crimes, which was an incredibly small fraction of those who crossed the border illegally. When Trump rolled out his neo-fascist "zero tolerance policy" upgrading all border crossings to a federal misdemeanor (rather than what it was for decades, a state civil violation), children were ripped from the arms of their parents and family and loved ones (and still are btw). Attempting to justify this by stating, without a shred of evidence mind you, "the kids are probs being trafficked by some very bad men," legitimately merits an invocation of Godwin's law. Beyond the goddamn pail, dude.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.


Last edited by darkeningday on Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:10 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Am I just incredibly tired or is this one of the most appalling things ever written on this forum?

It takes "guilty until proven innocent" and applies it to children, I'd say that probably goes beyond what people like einvolk would post back in the forum's more laissez faire days.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:27 am 
 

Next on the docket: "It's a known fact all Hispanics who cross the US border illegally carry Ebola, President Trump is actually doing them a HUGE humanitarian favor by putting these suffering souls out of their misery. And hey, Obama didn't like Ebola either so it's what he'd do too! #doublestandards "

Can't believe I'm actually missing einvolk, Wintersmere and Scorpio these days, at least they filled their rambling racist rants with some genuinely entertaining personal anecdotes and conspiracy theories.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
incelgender

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:45 am 
 

The catch-all is "Something something George Soros #maga"
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TheGrimWombat
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:14 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Through state seizure and continued control of all industry and agricultural in the country? North Korea retains control of all land within its borders and can appropriate it at will without compensation or even reason. There's a reason tankies are so quick to team up with Juche gangers and Maoists. They all excercise a similar brand of authoritarian state-run communism. Plus, NoKor has a series of workers councils that direct production that's owned by the people.


I'd actually argue that DPRK is more of a monarchy.
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TheGrimWombat
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:19 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Telling people to leave the country if they don't support the government, calling for people to be fired if they don't sing the national anthem, calling for people to be fired if they don't swear the pledge of allegiance, why is it even a debate...


You only get fired if you don't pledge allegiance to the greatest ally, to be frank. Trump is, after all, the "Chosen One!" and the "King of Israel" in his own words. He's hardly a nationalist.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:37 pm 
 

Manic Maniac wrote:
Dude these children have been in the same care under Trump as they have under previous presidents. There is no evidence the adults they came with are their parents and they could be child traffickers. We have to split them up for the children's own safety. This is why we shouldn't have open borders.


So, ummm, what is your, ummm, policy on Brexit?
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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:21 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Watch Cody Johnson's videos above. "Trumpism" is remarkably redolent of Mussolini's brand of facism, and comparing the two is apposite, if a bit reductive. Hitler comparisons to Trump, however, have little value right now.


I think it is very reductive. Now I haven't had the time to watch all of the videos (and quite frankly it was quite annoying with the presenter trying to be funny in the process failing to really analyse anything he was saying on a deeper level. This is of course also a part of the modern problem - dumbed down, fast-food debate styles spread instantly through social media..

Examples (just from the first few minutes):

His first argument is how a Hitler speech sounds like a Trump speech if we just change a few words. This is a classic pedagogical trick. In Sweden often used but to show people how close some of what Hitler said was compared with our Social Democratic Party (especially in the 50's and 60's). It says nothing about fascism but abut the relatedness of certain topics and rhetoric.

He also glances over important information. He quickly mentions how Trump blames all crimes on immigrants (probably not a true statement in itself) and then says something along the lines of "even though immigrants commit fewer crimes than non immigrants". I don't know about the US but over here that claim is only true if we compare the number of crimes and do not take into account anything else. However if we take into account the amount of immigrants from, for example, North Africa we see that they are massively overrepresented in crime statistics in relation to the size of that particular immigrant group. Others are under-represented compared to Swedes like East Asians in general.

This article is by no means a masterpiece, it just hits on the very obvious in regards to Trump, but I think its main idea is better than what I saw from the videos posted: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... edirect=on

And if we are to seriously approach the matter I think articles such as the following one are more mature (even though I might not agree with them on every single point) compared to that You Tube comedian: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... e/download

It is very true though that white supremacy groups have tried to lay claim to Trump as their representative (or as in the case with the alt right trying to claim they were the reason he got elected - that's just laughable). But of course they do this only out of their dreams. In reality few of them, if any, would really support an pro-Israelian president who loves capitalism and really doesn't care about "the race issue".

droneriot wrote:
Telling people to leave the country if they don't support the government, calling for people to be fired if they don't sing the national anthem, calling for people to be fired if they don't swear the pledge of allegiance, why is it even a debate...


None of these criteria imply fascism specifically. Authoritarian or totalitarian perhaps. The same has happened in communist countries, theocratic countries and monarchies. And yes in democracies as well...

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Byrain
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:10 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
This is of course also a part of the modern problem - dumbed down, fast-food debate styles spread instantly through social media..


You have to remember that one of the requirements of modern news is being able to fit neatly inside a tweet and the target audience and participants don't have the attention span for anymore than that.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:30 pm 
 

The literal point of the video is that Trump is not Hitler and that the US is not a fascist country. Rather, Trumpism is a type of fascism, more or less comparable to Mussolini.

In the US, immigrants commit less crime per capita than non-immigrants. The CATO Institute has exhaustive breakdowns of this.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:20 pm 
 

Byrain wrote:
InnesI wrote:
This is of course also a part of the modern problem - dumbed down, fast-food debate styles spread instantly through social media..


You have to remember that one of the requirements of modern news is being able to fit neatly inside a tweet and the target audience and participants don't have the attention span for anymore than that.


Of course! Doesn't make it good though.

darkeningday wrote:
The literal point of the video is that Trump is not Hitler and that the US is not a fascist country. Rather, Trumpism is a type of fascism, more or less comparable to Mussolini.


I still haven't seen all three videos but he must disregard some of the major traits of Mussolinis fascism if he is to say Trumps policies are comparable to Mussolinis in such a way he could rightly be called fascist. To me it seems like he has to pick and choose which areas to compare the two. But, I'll get back to it when I see the videos - if I can stand the frantic cutting and sound effects of them.

Quote:
In the US, immigrants commit less crime per capita than non-immigrants. The CATO Institute has exhaustive breakdowns of this.


I'll trust you on that. I have no real insight into US crime statistics.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:31 pm 
 

The USA doesn't work the same way as Europe when it comes to people with darker skin and crime because in the USA most people with darker skin are US citizens for many generations while Europe was pretty much all white until after the war and almost everyone with darker skin is a first or second generation immigrant. Just saying it to make clear the link between racism and nationalism is very different between the continents so that aspect of the far right functions a lot differently - comparing the USA with Sweden is very difficult there.

Really difficult phrasing that one because I don't memorise user names and there's some guy who feels personally accused by everything someone says and I'm almost entirely (above 90%) sure it wasn't you, but not 100%.
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Mellifleur
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:43 pm 
 

The argument is that if there is any difference between Italian fascism in the 30's and Trumpism today then they are de facto not the same thing, therefor comparing them and seeing similarities is pure hysterics. Talk about reductive. :lol:
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:03 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
I still haven't seen all three videos but he must disregard some of the major traits of Mussolinis fascism if he is to say Trumps policies are comparable to Mussolinis in such a way he could rightly be called fascist. To me it seems like he has to pick and choose which areas to compare the two. But, I'll get back to it when I see the videos - if I can stand the frantic cutting and sound effects of them.

I really shouldn't have linked the first video. The latter two are the ones with the most substance, especially the third video which you should watch if you can't spare the time for the rest of them.

He explains that fascism is specific to the particular cultural sphere from which it emerges. It's all laid out incredibly well.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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InnesI
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:38 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Really difficult phrasing that one because I don't memorise user names and there's some guy who feels personally accused by everything someone says and I'm almost entirely (above 90%) sure it wasn't you, but not 100%.


No worries!

Mellifleur wrote:
The argument is that if there is any difference between Italian fascism in the 30's and Trumpism today then they are de facto not the same thing, therefor comparing them and seeing similarities is pure hysterics. Talk about reductive. :lol:


Nah, I also pointed to a few likenesses between the two. They are there and no one in here has denied that. It is quite different from saying that Trump is a fascist though when he clearly doesn't care much for some of the most important things that made fascism a distinct political ideology.

darkeningday wrote:
I really shouldn't have linked the first video. The latter two are the ones with the most substance, especially the third video which you should watch if you can't spare the time for the rest of them.

He explains that fascism is specific to the particular cultural sphere from which it emerges. It's all laid out incredibly well.


Ok then, I'll try video 2 and 3.

What did you think of the article I linked?

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droneriot
incelgender

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:10 am 
 

What I was trying to say was that when the European far right talks about immigrants being criminal, the word "immigrant" is a convenient code word because what they really intend to say is "the n-word are criminal" or "the sand n-word criminal" and with my disclaimer I was saying that I didn't mean you were saying that but the European counterparts of Trump are. And when Trump says the same it doesn't have as purely a racist a meaning but is by definition more nationalist because the majority of "the racial slur" aka the people of colour are American citizens for many generations.

Kind of puts the thing back on topic, too, if you remember that ad of the leave campaign talking about how EU membership hurts British healthcare and the NHS and it shows a hospital waiting room overcrowded with people with dark skin and after Brexit they all disappear...
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:42 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Kind of puts the thing back on topic, too, if you remember that ad of the leave campaign talking about how EU membership hurts British healthcare and the NHS and it shows a hospital waiting room overcrowded with people with dark skin and after Brexit they all disappear...


The whole campaign was a disaster from both sides. I'm not well read but thats my impression from afar. Leaving EU won't effect Africans in the NHS will it? They aren't EU citizens anyway. The people it effects most are, from what I understand, the Polish community which is huge in England.

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MegaMal
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:04 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
The whole campaign was a disaster from both sides. I'm not well read but thats my impression from afar. Leaving EU won't effect Africans in the NHS will it? They aren't EU citizens anyway. The people it effects most are, from what I understand, the Polish community which is huge in England.
Your average Brexit voter wanted less brown people and less illegal immigrants. Conveniently forgetting that neither of those have anything to do with the EU...

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InnesI
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:18 pm 
 

MegaMal wrote:
InnesI wrote:
The whole campaign was a disaster from both sides. I'm not well read but thats my impression from afar. Leaving EU won't effect Africans in the NHS will it? They aren't EU citizens anyway. The people it effects most are, from what I understand, the Polish community which is huge in England.
Your average Brexit voter wanted less brown people and less illegal immigrants. Conveniently forgetting that neither of those have anything to do with the EU...


It was really three things: immigration, the financial crisis and the euro crisis. The NHS thing was hugely influential of course. I as former immigrant in England was one of the few in my circle of friends and former colleagues who were pro-Brexit. For me its mainly about being able to move power down from a European level to a national level. In the long run I think this will benefit all of the British Isles even though there will be hits in the short run.

I think all of it is sound. Without EU you can decide on all three major things a lot closer to the people and not have to consider EU rules. But I'm still not certain the politicians will honour the democratic process. I think they will find ways to go around this (and will probably get cheered on for going against the will of the people).

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:29 pm 
 

Well the idea about Brexit is the most dishonest hypocritical idea there ever has been. The English are against the EU passing rules from above without asking them and deciding policy for them, so the English pass rules on the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish (and people from Gibraltar, Jersey and Guernsey) from above without asking them and deciding policy for them. Probably the biggest hypocrites and liars in human history. They do 100% to others without hesitation or second thought what they complain is being done to them. All those liars who supported that hypocrisy have forfeited their value in any kind of international community and just should be left aside by the world until this generation dies out. Co-operation and trade with England in any shape or form can be talked about to resume in 2050 at the earliest.

If people wanna vote leave, vote leave for Nicola in 2020. Every other English occupied territory that has been stepped on by English megalomania and cheated out of everything they have should follow suit. The European Union best be smart and welcome them with open arms.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:10 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Well the idea about Brexit is the most dishonest hypocritical idea there ever has been. The English are against the EU passing rules from above without asking them and deciding policy for them, so the English pass rules on the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish (and people from Gibraltar, Jersey and Guernsey) from above without asking them and deciding policy for them.


Well, the same could be said until we reduce the deciding making process down to every individual. But I'd sure prefer the decision making process to be closer to where I am than the opposite. If we play with the through I'd much rather have the EU over a world government. I'd also much rather have a Scandinavian Union rather than the EU. And I'd rather have Sweden be free rather than a Scandinavian Union.

That is also why I generally tend to support movements such as the Catalans in Spain and such. To move power down to a level closer to the people is mostly positive. I don't want a super state type of rule which the EU is increasingly becoming.

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:54 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
It was really three things: immigration, the financial crisis and the euro crisis. The NHS thing was hugely influential of course. I as former immigrant in England was one of the few in my circle of friends and former colleagues who were pro-Brexit. For me its mainly about being able to move power down from a European level to a national level. In the long run I think this will benefit all of the British Isles even though there will be hits in the short run.

I think all of it is sound. Without EU you can decide on all three major things a lot closer to the people and not have to consider EU rules. But I'm still not certain the politicians will honour the democratic process. I think they will find ways to go around this (and will probably get cheered on for going against the will of the people).

Can you give an example of some rules that UK would get rid of that would end up for the benefit of its people?
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Manic Maniac
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:39 pm 
 

"Racists" I am part Spanish. Hispanic is not a race. I don't have a problem with people entering the country lawfully. These people are not crossing it lawfully. They belong in jail.
Trumps "I'm the chosen one" comment is about his voters, not Israel, you idiots.
"So, ummm, what is your, ummm, policy on Brexit?" They should leave. The EU is an authoritarian state.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:42 pm 
 

I must have missed the part where someone asked for infowars quotes.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:08 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Can you give an example of some rules that UK would get rid of that would end up for the benefit of its people?


Since I haven't lived in England for 10 years I'm not particularly well read on the specifics of the UK as it is. But there are a few general things that also apply in my home country worth mentioning. The main thing will always be the loss of independence.

* Laws can be made on an EU level directly effecting an individual country without the laws having been accepted in the national parliament.

* EU has non democratic tendencies. No matter what the public votes in separate countries say the EU hasn't accepted the result if they happen to be the "wrong one" (Denmark 1992, Ireland in 2001 and 2008, France in 2005 and the Netherlands in 2005). Sweden voted no to the Euro currency but it seems like we have been bound to give up our national currency anyway before 2025 because of the Maastricht Treaty.

We also have the somewhat suspicious election of the very top names in the union which becomes increasingly undemocratic. And it happens between closed doors since there is no transparency principle in the EU (like we have in Sweden).

* We risk giving up our neutrality or independence in case of war (a big thing in Sweden) since we are bound to support whatever directions the EU give us.

* Free movement and loss of border controls has made the influx of weapons and drugs massively increase but most of all harder to track. The free movement also increases the pollution in Europe. And cheaper meat comes from countries with less restrictions on animal health and animal care. Making it cheap to buy bad meat while Swedish farmers get outrivaled. It also leads to loss of major companies who can move easier to countries where the labour is cheaper. It also leads to national workers loosing jobs because it is cheaper to hire seasonal workers from elsewhere. Social dumping.

* EU is a threat to the free internet as we know it (first IPRED and then article 11 and 13).

* EU spreads poverty. Compare the streets of Stockholm today - beggars in every corner - to Stockholm 10 years ago. Massive difference!


Last edited by InnesI on Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:09 pm 
 

Yeah none of that is actually true but okay.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:13 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Yeah none of that is actually true but okay.


Instead of just a one line reply feel free to actually put some arguments forth. Otherwise we will end up with a "-You're wrong! -No, you're wrong!" type situation and no one wants that.

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InnesI
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:04 pm 
 

Some links to back up my claims:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_o ... _Union_law (and in some areas countries, or Sweden at least aren't even allowed to pass laws like trade and business competition where EU has the legislation rights.

60% of the law legislation has its source in the EU (in a Swedish context https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Kv ... eus-beslut ).

EU and the Internet - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yright-law

An individual country's neutrality potentially threatened by the Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP) - https://eeas.europa.eu/topics/common-fo ... cy-cfsp_en

Maastrish treaty and the euro (even though we had a vote clearly rejecting the Euro in 2003) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

Quote:
"Sweden does not currently use the euro as its currency and has no plans to replace the krona in the near future. Sweden's Treaty of Accession of 1994 made it subject to the Treaty of Maastricht, which obliges states to join the eurozone once they meet the necessary conditions.[1][2] Sweden maintains that joining the ERM II (a requirement for euro adoption) is voluntary,[3][4] and has chosen to remain outside pending public approval by a referendum, thereby intentionally avoiding the fulfilment of the adoption requirements"




Weapons and open borders - https://www.svd.se/svart-att-enas-om-va ... or-hela-eu

Social dumping - https://www.socialeurope.eu/the-europea ... -a-way-out
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... workers-eu

On the referendums that wasn't accepted by the EU:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Dani ... referendum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-ei ... _Bill_2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Fren ... referendum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Dutc ... referendum

And on the situation with beggars in Stockholm feel free to pay us a visit. We have a beggar outside of every supermarket, in the most busy streets and in the general vicinity of ATM's. I can't provide you with a time machine to go back ten years in time (or perhaps fifteen) but you'll have to take my word for it that we had barely any beggars out in the streets back then.

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:25 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:

60% of the law legislation has its source in the EU (in a Swedish context https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Kv ... eus-beslut ).


I've never understood this criticism. So what if a lot of laws have their source in the EU? They're being voted on by democratically elected officals from each member state.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:21 pm 
 

Manic Maniac wrote:
"Racists" I am part Spanish. Hispanic is not a race.

We've done it lads, we've solved racism!
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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