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Ilwhyan
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:16 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Ilwhyan wrote:
You can knock off the "concentration camps aren't always bad, because there are also bad prisons" pretense. It also doesn't need to be discussed who deserves, or doesn't deserve, to go to a gulag or a concentration camp, because whenever humanity acts as a judge of that, innocent people suffer and die. I'm not in the mood for any more warnings about this kind of horseshit.


No one has said that "concentration camps aren't bad." All I've done is point out that the US is not innocent of equivalent crimes. If you choose to understand that as anything but what's on the tin, I can't help you with that, as it is a failure of your reading comprehension, not my argument.

We simply don't need whataboutism about concentration camps. So just drop it.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:31 am 
 

Could we instead focus on what the candidates are saying about how they would reign in the abuses of the American carceral state, and how they would compensate the victims of that system. That seems relevant. Is that ok with you?
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:58 am 
 

Not sure if this should get its own thread, but fucking lol, the reporting today is that the Saudi Crown Prince appears to have personally hacked the phone of Jeff Bezos. Fuckery in the Age of Trump, for sure.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... mazon.html
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l Lunaris l
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:14 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:19 pm 
 

The American prison system is awful, I'll say that much. But saying that US prisons are equivalent to Soviet concentration camps is completely absurd.

However, it is important to note the similarities. Both are very dehumanizing and don't treat prisoners like they are people with actual rights, and both focus on the idea of senseless punishment as opposed to rehabilitation and re-integration into society (something any good justice system would put first and foremost). They aren't exactly the same, and they definitely aren't comparable in terms of how awful they were for prisoners, but the roots of why they both fail as prison systems are indeed the same.
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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:23 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
droneriot wrote:
Considering North Korea is pretty much the one thing the USA, Europe, Russia, China, Japan, India, Pakistan etc agree on, it's a pretty lost cause to call propaganda on that one.


That's weird, because I primarily read English-language PRC sources for info (largely because Chinese reporters actually, you know, go to North Korea to do their reporting), and these paint a very different picture vs. what comes out of the imperialist media. It's like you haven't actually read any non-Western reporting on the DPRK, but yet you feel confident that you know what it says. Why is that?


This is the new peak on the series of "bruh" moments from the last two pages.

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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:57 am 
 

l Lunaris l wrote:
Both are very dehumanizing and don't treat prisoners like they are people with actual rights, and both focus on the idea of senseless punishment as opposed to rehabilitation and re-integration into society (something any good justice system would put first and foremost).


This is something that I think is a complete and utter failure - and the other thing regarding rehabilitation and re-integration is that you essentially come out of the system wearing a scarlet letter. Having to disclose their criminal records on job applications (and the judgement from an employer based on that). Rights such as voting or gun ownership. These are things that stay with these people for the rest of their lives.

When you think of someone who comes home, can't find a job, isn't allowed to vote, etc.; what do we expect them to do? They only having criminal enterprise to fall back on and then the cycle continues.

And when you really break the shit down, there are people (largely black and brown people) who find themselves in this situation over marijuana laws (for instance). It really is a broken system.

And that's saying nothing of Homan Square (and other black sites) that have been revealed. Then you roll in things such as Japanese internment, warrantless surveillance, the Patriot Act, etc.

I'm not debating which is worse between gulags and prison... My point in chiming in over the past two pages was just to demonstrate that red scare propaganda about "scary communist USSR" is still influencing people - and those people often don't think about the things the American government is actively doing right now, because we are taught that the government is doing these things to keep us "safe".

To me, this conversation is just an extension of the "satin glove over an iron fist" reference that is made about America.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:20 am 
 

l Lunaris l wrote:
The American prison system is awful, I'll say that much. But saying that US prisons are equivalent to Soviet concentration camps is completely absurd.

However, it is important to note the similarities. Both are very dehumanizing and don't treat prisoners like they are people with actual rights, and both focus on the idea of senseless punishment as opposed to rehabilitation and re-integration into society (something any good justice system would put first and foremost). They aren't exactly the same, and they definitely aren't comparable in terms of how awful they were for prisoners, but the roots of why they both fail as prison systems are indeed the same.

Well you won't catch me pulling a counter-whataboutism on the whataboutism and claiming anything about the horrors of Soviet gulags or Nazi concentration camps justifies disgusting current day practices in any way. Just doesn't work that way for me because it's like saying killing a guy is okay because Jeffrey Dahmer was worse. That some crimes againt humanity are worse than others doesn't mean that any crimes against humanity are good.

Bingewolf's "red scare" points are moot to me because while my paternal grandfather was a POW in a Soviet gulag, my paternal grandmother had her home town fire bombed with white phospurus bombs by the British and Americans, and in post-war Germany capitalism in the West hasn't treated my parents and aunts and uncles in the West much better than socialism has treated my aunts and uncles in the East. Nothing I'll ever say about the Soviet Union will ever come from a feeling of moral superiorty of the West or the United States because there isn't much grounds for claiming that on. But I sure as hell am not going to turn it around and sugar coat the crimes against humanity of the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc because of anything the United States and the West did either.
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l Lunaris l
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Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:14 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:45 am 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
When you think of someone who comes home, can't find a job, isn't allowed to vote, etc.; what do we expect them to do? They only having criminal enterprise to fall back on and then the cycle continues.

And when you really break the shit down, there are people (largely black and brown people) who find themselves in this situation over marijuana laws (for instance). It really is a broken system.


Exactly. If you ever go to prison, that's basically it. Your life has been ruined, and that's pretty much the same whether you killed someone or stole a car or did something as inconsequential as smoke marijuana.

This is even WORSE for people on sex offender lists. This is definitely more sensitive territory, but honestly the idea of any sort of permanent list like that ignores the fact that people can change. More importantly, the things people do that can get them on sex offender lists can be ABSURD. Stupid teenagers sending each other nude pictures of themselves? That's distribution of child pornography. Doesn't matter that it's you, doesn't matter that you're both minors, and it doesn't even matter if you're both at the age of consent in your state. You get caught, and your future gets thrown away.

There's no compassion or empathy behind a justice system like this. It's disgusting.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:00 am 
 

The point I was trying to make, but obviously didn't make clearly enough is this. There is a tendency to hold socialism to a standard that we do not, as a society, hold "liberal democracy" to. That is, we act as if everything any socialist has ever done reflects a failure of socialism as a system, but treat similar behavior among the agents of capitalism/"democracy" as if they are exceptions to the rule, and solely the responsibility of their individual perpetrators. So, for instance, we treat Stalin and gulags as if they were systemic failures of socialism, but the abuses of the American justice system are rarely treated as systemic failures of capitalism/"democracy." This is a double standard, and it has its roots in propaganda, not fact.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:38 am 
 

I don't know where you get that strawman from because nobody said anything like it. I spent all of 2019 fighting for survival with only eating sporadically and constant panic attacks and suicidal thoughts thanks to severe systemic flaws in our capitalist system, notably the complete lack of law enforcement when it comes to corporate crime effectively being pure anarchy. And even though the European shit trinity of inequality - Germany, France, UK - is exceptionally bad by European standards, that's still nothing compared to what people in the United States have to endure. Any love letters to Western capitalism that you may see in this thread are something only you can see and I haven't got a clue where you get it from.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:55 am 
 

What part of as a society did you read as meaning you and only you, or "the forum" or "this thread?"
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:15 pm 
 

If you think society on the whole is any different you need to get out more and interact more. The silent majority stands with life in the West being shit.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:21 pm 
 

Mayor Pete just had his very own “please clap” moment.



(Also please excuse the dumb MAGA channel this came from. I saw this circulating on twitter and just found a YT version quickly.)

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:35 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
If you think society on the whole is any different you need to get out more and interact more. The silent majority stands with life in the West being shit.


I live in a country that elected Donald Fucking Trump as its leader; your "silent majority" is real fucking silent here.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:48 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
The point I was trying to make, but obviously didn't make clearly enough is this. There is a tendency to hold socialism to a standard that we do not, as a society, hold "liberal democracy" to. That is, we act as if everything any socialist has ever done reflects a failure of socialism as a system, but treat similar behavior among the agents of capitalism/"democracy" as if they are exceptions to the rule, and solely the responsibility of their individual perpetrators. So, for instance, we treat Stalin and gulags as if they were systemic failures of socialism, but the abuses of the American justice system are rarely treated as systemic failures of capitalism/"democracy." This is a double standard, and it has its roots in propaganda, not fact.


I find it weird to be lumping in “democracy” - also, why the quotes? - with capitalism as though they have the same failures. Other folks in here can do a much better job at highlighting the weaknesses of capitalism, so I’ll leave them to it. But trying to label the worse parts of the American justice sytem as a failure of democracy itself, doesn’t make sense. If you want criminal justice reform, then you can vote for someone who wants criminal justice reform! When that doesn’t happen, it’s not a failure of democracy - it’s a failure of the people to choose wisely.
Conversely, the people who run a system such as the Soviets, are the system. They allow no other option, that’s why we don’t separate the system from its crimes like we can in a democracy.
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RugglesTx
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Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:22 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:10 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
The point I was trying to make, but obviously didn't make clearly enough is this. There is a tendency to hold socialism to a standard that we do not, as a society, hold "liberal democracy" to. That is, we act as if everything any socialist has ever done reflects a failure of socialism as a system, but treat similar behavior among the agents of capitalism/"democracy" as if they are exceptions to the rule, and solely the responsibility of their individual perpetrators. So, for instance, we treat Stalin and gulags as if they were systemic failures of socialism, but the abuses of the American justice system are rarely treated as systemic failures of capitalism/"democracy." This is a double standard, and it has its roots in propaganda, not fact.


I find it weird to be lumping in “democracy” - also, why the quotes? - with capitalism as though they have the same failures. Other folks in here can do a much better job at highlighting the weaknesses of capitalism, so I’ll leave them to it. But trying to label the worse parts of the American justice sytem as a failure of democracy itself, doesn’t make sense. If you want criminal justice reform, then you can vote for someone who wants criminal justice reform! When that doesn’t happen, it’s not a failure of democracy - it’s a failure of the people to choose wisely.
Conversely, the people who run a system such as the Soviets, are the system. They allow no other option, that’s why we don’t separate the system from its crimes like we can in a democracy.


How is it a failure of the people to choose wisely? Who makes the determination rather it was wise or unwise? Is that not why we vote in the first place?

In no way is it a failure of democracy, just the opposite in fact.

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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:07 am 
 

We’re on the same side here, Ruggles. Rights abuses happen in spite of democracy, not because of it. Democracy means we can choose to change and cancel a cruel or failed policy. In a totalitarian system, socialist or otherwise, you’re stuck with whatever goes wrong. The abuses might not be directly caused by socialism, but the inability to demand the country get off that course certainly is.
Sedition, that is not a double standard. It’s just the way reality works.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:43 am 
 

Ok, can we stop hijacking the thread. This conversation has literally nothing to do with what this thread is intended to discuss and the hijack has gone on for two pages now. Start a different thread to debate the pros and cons of socialism and democracy, if you want.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:25 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I live in a country that elected Donald Fucking Trump as its leader; your "silent majority" is real fucking silent here.

Well usually the rule with non-voters is that you don't know what they would have voted for, but if you include non-voters in the voting population, the very low percentage of the voting population that voted for Donald Trump pretty conveniently matches his approval ratings. So you can say with fair certainty that non-voters were generally not potential Trump voters. Basically, the 62 million Trump voters out of 214 million registered voters (28%) and a total population of 323 million (19%) are all that would have ever voted for Donald Trump. The remaining 72% of registered voters or 81% of the total population would not.
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RugglesTx
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Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:22 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:33 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I live in a country that elected Donald Fucking Trump as its leader; your "silent majority" is real fucking silent here.

Well usually the rule with non-voters is that you don't know what they would have voted for, but if you include non-voters in the voting population, the very low percentage of the voting population that voted for Donald Trump pretty conveniently matches his approval ratings. So you can say with fair certainty that non-voters were generally not potential Trump voters. Basically, the 62 million Trump voters out of 214 million registered voters (28%) and a total population of 323 million (19%) are all that would have ever voted for Donald Trump. The remaining 72% of registered voters or 81% of the total population would not.


That is a leap to make that conclusion to say the least IMO. That is the same logic the polls used in 2016 to predict HRC rolling into the White House., people not voicing loud open support for Trump would not vote for him. The verbal and social oppression use by many on the left in 2016 to try and shame Trump voters gave a false sense of security to them that HRC was going to win.

2020 will be interesting, all those who think Trump really is as un popular and un supported as the media portrays might just be very surprised.

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insanewayne253
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:19 am 
 

...and yet HRC still won the popular vote by almost 3 million. Many of the polls were correct in that regard.

Keep in mind Trump won just by the skin of his teeth; around 80,000 votes spread across three states that many thought were in the bag and part of the blue wall. They took those states for granted and hell even polling companies stopped polling weeks before the election. You also had Comey come out 11 days before the election and the Rs jumping on that, the black vote at its lowest (56.8%, the lowest since 2000), plus Russian disinformation spread across social media. It was the perfect storm.

I don’t think ANYONE is taking anything for granted this year.

Quick side note: Congratulations Republicans, you just wrote your own attack ads against you with Trump and co. floating the idea of cutting Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security in order to make up for that tax cut for rich assholes and corporations basing projections on fantasy numbers of economic growth that would bring (or as Bush 41 called "voodoo economics") This smells of Moscow Mitch McConnell and Trump as some articles like to say is either an accomplice or a useful stooge.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:31 am 
 

I've always found it odd that no one talks about how Trump's 2016 win was by far the closest election in American history. No other president had lost the popular vote by that many votes and still took the presidency. I think GWB in 2000 won by fewer electoral votes, but Gore still had lower popular votes than HRC.

All that said, remember: the incumbent ALWAYS has the advantage and if the economy holds it will make defeating Trump all the more difficult.
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insanewayne253
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:13 am 
 

But this is Trump we’re talking about. He’ll say something dumb, stick his foot in his mouth, scream “fake news” and the dumb stuff he says will be on an attack ad faster than you could say Paracoccidioidomicosisproctitissarcomucosis

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:15 am 
 

How fucking amazing would it be if the Democrat in 2020 lost the popular vote but won the EC? They would literally never shut up. Sure, a Democrat has never done that yet, but who ever thought we'd have a corrupt syphilitic billionaire game show host as President either, so anything's fair game.
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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insanewayne253
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:40 am 
 

I guarantee the Republicans would be screaming to get rid of the Electoral College. Personally, I’d call that poetic justice.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:50 am 
 

The electoral college would be abolished the next DAY too, so it's a win-win-win any way you look at. Probably never going to happen though, I'm not even sure there's enough Republicans remaining in this country, frankly to EVER deliver a popular. Unless 9/11 2.0 happens, an eventuality I hope we'll never have.
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:18 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
The electoral college would be abolished the next DAY too, so it's a win-win-win any way you look at. Probably never going to happen though, I'm not even sure there's enough Republicans remaining in this country, frankly to EVER deliver a popular. Unless 9/11 2.0 happens, an eventuality I hope we'll never have.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but no it wouldn’t. Politicians do not bite the hand that feeds them. If the Democrats won thanks to the Electoral College, it would stay for at least one more cycle. Canada’s Liberals promised that 2015 would be the last hurrah for first-past-the-post, but it’s still here!
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:36 am 
 

I disagree. The Electoral College has only ever hurt dems and helped republicans. It would still be in their interest to abolish it. But since this scenario would never happen it's nothing but wishful thinking.
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:14 am 
 

RugglesTx wrote:
That is a leap to make that conclusion to say the least IMO. That is the same logic the polls used in 2016 to predict HRC rolling into the White House., people not voicing loud open support for Trump would not vote for him. The verbal and social oppression use by many on the left in 2016 to try and shame Trump voters gave a false sense of security to them that HRC was going to win.

2020 will be interesting, all those who think Trump really is as un popular and un supported as the media portrays might just be very surprised.

First, you gotta read your own post here and think about the logic of it. Polls saying one thing and then the election with crappy turnout saying another thing does not say the polls were wrong, it says "guess who stayed home?"

Also, people still go for "the media" conspiracy theories? The source of those is... other media. Conspiracy theories have a patchy track record for trustworthiness to begin with, but when they're the result of industry infighting you can throw them in the bin straight away. Imagine the weapons industry and the tobacco industry start accusing each other of being harmful to people, not even worth a laugh.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:51 pm 
 

Trump is so colossally loathsome that it seems conceivable that an incumbent President heading into an election with a 3.8% unemployment rate might actually fail to be reelected. Conceivable, but not likely.
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RugglesTx
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:50 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
RugglesTx wrote:
That is a leap to make that conclusion to say the least IMO. That is the same logic the polls used in 2016 to predict HRC rolling into the White House., people not voicing loud open support for Trump would not vote for him. The verbal and social oppression use by many on the left in 2016 to try and shame Trump voters gave a false sense of security to them that HRC was going to win.

2020 will be interesting, all those who think Trump really is as un popular and un supported as the media portrays might just be very surprised.

First, you gotta read your own post here and think about the logic of it. Polls saying one thing and then the election with crappy turnout saying another thing does not say the polls were wrong, it says "guess who stayed home?"

Also, people still go for "the media" conspiracy theories? The source of those is... other media. Conspiracy theories have a patchy track record for trustworthiness to begin with, but when they're the result of industry infighting you can throw them in the bin straight away. Imagine the weapons industry and the tobacco industry start accusing each other of being harmful to people, not even worth a laugh.


The media clearly and regularly paints him as unpopular with the American people. Can't blame them for doing so because he does not cower to them and they feel disrespected. But the fact is they do paint him as overall unpopular, and I would guess many people believe them and their narrative. It's not a conspiracy at all.

The social media and public attacks on Trump supporters were plain to see in 2016, still are today. The left is overall ridiculous in how they react socially to anybody even having a simple conversation with Trump, as we saw at the NCCA title game recently.

The nation thought HRC was waltzing into the office in 2016, include me in that group. The liberal comical outbursts that night showed that the left was is utter disarray because they could not understand how they had been so wrong. HRC herself was too shaken and cowardly to even face her own supporters that night. I think we very well may be headed to seeing the same thing this election to a much lesser degree though.


Sanders the socialist seems to be leading in Iowa now, if he gets the nomination the Dems have a huge almost epic uphill battle in November.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:00 pm 
 

Yeah on this very forum, when Hillary was announced as the winner of the Democratic primaries, I posted congratulations to Donald Trump for winning the presidency. Some people made some derisive remarks about my post, but the fact is that Hillary is by far the least popular Democratic politicians in recent history and it showed when people didn't come to the polls at all or would rather vote for Jill Stein than for her.

As for the "the media" stuff, well, at least you're not alone in being completely lulled into that. Always makes me think of this:

John Trent : You're waiting to hear about my 'them', aren't you?
Dr. Wrenn : Your what?
John Trent : My 'them'. Every paranoid schizophrenic has one; a 'them', a 'they', an 'it'. And you want to hear about my 'them', don't you?
Dr. Wrenn : I want to know how you got here.
John Trent : Things are turning to shit out there, aren't they?
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Deutschpunk - Why German Punk Rock Is... Different - [A Zero Budget Documentary]
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Mellifleur
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:04 pm 
 

It is unfortunately that the same term, "conspiracy theory" is used for two distinctly different kinds of things. There are "conspiracy theories" that powerful corporations and states use public relations, marketing techniques, and propaganda to mold public opinion and manufacture consent for the things they do to accumulate power, and there are "conspiracy theories" that those corporations and states have been infiltrated by shape shifting lizards. That's two very different kinds of ideas, one which is completely borne out by history and evidence, and the other which is crazy nonsense. You guys can figure out which is which. 8)
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RugglesTx
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:22 pm
Posts: 64
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:47 pm 
 

Mellifleur wrote:
It is unfortunately that the same term, "conspiracy theory" is used for two distinctly different kinds of things. There are "conspiracy theories" that powerful corporations and states use public relations, marketing techniques, and propaganda to mold public opinion and manufacture consent for the things they do to accumulate power, and there are "conspiracy theories" that those corporations and states have been infiltrated by shape shifting lizards. That's two very different kinds of ideas, one which is completely borne out by history and evidence, and the other which is crazy nonsense. You guys can figure out which is which. 8)


Flat Earth.

Man do I love to watch me some people try and sell a Flat Earth on videos. By far my favorite conspiracy theory.

You right a huge difference between the two. I do not the general overall media is in a organized conspiracy against Trump. They act individually but in the same manner because they all generally dislike him. He is not a easy guy to like or root for :)

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5157
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:37 am 
 

RugglesTx wrote:
droneriot wrote:
RugglesTx wrote:
That is a leap to make that conclusion to say the least IMO. That is the same logic the polls used in 2016 to predict HRC rolling into the White House., people not voicing loud open support for Trump would not vote for him. The verbal and social oppression use by many on the left in 2016 to try and shame Trump voters gave a false sense of security to them that HRC was going to win.

2020 will be interesting, all those who think Trump really is as un popular and un supported as the media portrays might just be very surprised.

First, you gotta read your own post here and think about the logic of it. Polls saying one thing and then the election with crappy turnout saying another thing does not say the polls were wrong, it says "guess who stayed home?"

Also, people still go for "the media" conspiracy theories? The source of those is... other media. Conspiracy theories have a patchy track record for trustworthiness to begin with, but when they're the result of industry infighting you can throw them in the bin straight away. Imagine the weapons industry and the tobacco industry start accusing each other of being harmful to people, not even worth a laugh.


The media clearly and regularly paints him as unpopular with the American people. Can't blame them for doing so because he does not cower to them and they feel disrespected. But the fact is they do paint him as overall unpopular, and I would guess many people believe them and their narrative. It's not a conspiracy at all.

The social media and public attacks on Trump supporters were plain to see in 2016, still are today. The left is overall ridiculous in how they react socially to anybody even having a simple conversation with Trump, as we saw at the NCCA title game recently.

The nation thought HRC was waltzing into the office in 2016, include me in that group. The liberal comical outbursts that night showed that the left was is utter disarray because they could not understand how they had been so wrong. HRC herself was too shaken and cowardly to even face her own supporters that night. I think we very well may be headed to seeing the same thing this election to a much lesser degree though.


Sanders the socialist seems to be leading in Iowa now, if he gets the nomination the Dems have a huge almost epic uphill battle in November.


1. Trump is not popular with the public. Regularly in polls from both sides of the aisle, between 40-60% of the population wants Trump removed from office.

2. Bernie will curbstomp Trump in the general based on the aphorism that's always trotted out by the right and corporate America whenever they have major butthurt: you can't compete with free. Free healthcare, free debt cancellation, free college. How could your average American say no to that? Sure, highly intelligent alpha men like you can see right through it, but I thought the whole point of being a highly intelligent alpha man is that you stand well above the vast majority of your fellow countrymen? Do you really think your intellectual inferiors will be able to vote AGAINST free stuff because they understand the economic nuance that you do? If you believe the majority of voters is as high information as you then hell, why be opposed to socialism in the first place?! Clearly the will of the American People want exactly what you do!
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 681
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:15 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
2. Bernie will curbstomp Trump in the general based on the aphorism that's always trotted out by the right and corporate America whenever they have major butthurt: you can't compete with free. Free healthcare, free debt cancellation, free college. How could your average American say no to that? Sure, highly intelligent alpha men like you can see right through it, but I thought the whole point of being a highly intelligent alpha man is that you stand well above the vast majority of your fellow countrymen? Do you really think your intellectual inferiors will be able to vote AGAINST free stuff because they understand the economic nuance that you do? If you believe the majority of voters is as high information as you then hell, why be opposed to socialism in the first place?! Clearly the will of the American People want exactly what you do!

I know you're most likely being sarcastic and/or condescending, but I would say that that is exactly what is happening (not exactly how I would word it though). Politicians like Bernie are promising unrealistic things like free healthcare, debt cancellation, and free college, but it's just not doable (And I wouldn't be surprised if Bernie knew these promises were unrealistic, but he makes them anyways because he wants to win. He's is a politician after all). They're problems in those fields, sure, but he's going in the wrong direction in fixing them. And people are buying into it because, like you said, how can you compete with "free." I don't see it as "alpha man" vs. "intellectual inferiors" however, I just see it as people (not all but most) who have received poor training/education/information and making bad life/financial decisions based on their poor training/education/information, and now wanting the government to erase their mistakes.

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RugglesTx
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:22 pm
Posts: 64
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:46 am 
 

The general belief that Trump was not popular with the general American public lead to the shock on election night in 2016. That same belief could very well lead to yet one more night of the vastly entertaining scenes of liberal media heads exploding on the screen election night as it did in 2016. The left can not even settle on a ticket because they can not decide who has the best chance to beat Trump. The Dem primaries are based around beating Trump, not around who best represents their ideology. That is because they have a better understanding how popular he is vs what they thought in 2016.

Socialism won't win the day in 2020, the American people do not want it. Not yet anyway, one day most likely but not in 2020. It's an oppressive system and Americans still do not care for oppression from their govt.

As far as free stuff goes that is a double edge sword of epic scale. Do you think all the millions and millions of people who have paid their way thru college or their kids thru college want to now turn around and vote for that to be free? For college loan debts to just be just erased? Want their taxes to now go to pay off those loans when they paid their own off....want their taxes to go up so kids other than their own can go to college free. They understand it's not free at all, it just paid thru taxes instead of tuition.

Free Healthcare.... How truly successful or popular has Obama Care been? People don't want the govt in charge of their health care, do not want to give up the best medical care on Earth to hand it over to Washington D.C. to botch it up even more.

Bernie Sanders is not as vile a person as HRC (he seems like a generally good guy) was to so many Americans, but his policies are even more so. Trump's position is a easy one....the economy is doing great because we lifted so many govt restrictions, do you want 4 more years of that or do you want Bernie to go to D.C. and stick the nose of govt into everything ?

Biden is the only hope the Dems have of beating Trump. Sanders would be crushed, Warren even more so. Bloomberg, well no one seems to care about him on either side, no matter how much money he spends...maybe he should use that money to buy all of America a 64oz Big Gulp soda of their choice :)

The U.K. walks away from the socialist club of the E.U. this week and away from a leftist political party in the U.K. There are a number of easy connections to make between the election in the U.K last year and the one in the U.S. this year.

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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 681
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:33 pm 
 

RugglesTx wrote:
The general belief that Trump was not popular with the general American public lead to the shock on election night in 2016. That same belief could very well lead to yet one more night of the vastly entertaining scenes of liberal media heads exploding on the screen election night as it did in 2016. The left can not even settle on a ticket because they can not decide who has the best chance to beat Trump. The Dem primaries are based around beating Trump, not around who best represents their ideology. That is because they have a better understanding how popular he is vs what they thought in 2016.

I insist that Trump won not because he was more popular than people thought, but because people underestimated how unenthusiastic the general population were towards Hillary being president. The Democrats totally could've won in 2016 had they not had one of the most unlikable candidates in history as their nominee.

RugglesTx wrote:
Biden is the only hope the Dems have of beating Trump.

I use to think that but now I'm not so sure. He's giving the same vibe that Hillary had, the vibe that he's taking it easy because he's confident that he has this "in the bag". That'll cost him the election as it did with Hillary.

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RugglesTx
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:22 pm
Posts: 64
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:25 pm 
 

I think your right about the dislike of HRC drove voters to Trump in 2016. Bernie does not have that same vileness to him.

Trump is a extremely arrogant man and that's a understatement :). No doubt he thinks 2020 is in the bag for him.

I just can not imagine that the strength of the economy would not put him back in office in 2020 though. What can any Dem ticket offer to offset the strength of the economy right now? I can not think of anything that would sway voters.

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Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 154
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:33 pm 
 

There was a whole lot more to Trump's victory in 2016 than just people underestimating his popularity with the public, because even at the moment he won, he was deeply unpopular with Americans at large, and he still is. People underestimated his appeal to working class whites in 'blue wall' states like Pennsylvania and Michigan, people underestimated the depth of animosity and distrust towards Hillary Clinton (much of which I felt was overblown), people underestimated the extent of the internal schisms within the Democratic Party in the wake of the 2016 primary... There was a whole lot going on and none of it had to do with Trump being personally popular with the public. He never has been. His approval rating has been underwater for practically the entirety of his presidency.

Also, Sanders would probably be only slightly less of a strong candidate against Trump than Biden. I don't think he'd make a good president but he definitely wouldn't get 'crushed' by Trump in a general election and he'd still have a pretty good shot at victory.

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