Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:48 pm 
 

So... yeah. I've been listening to the gamerips of the new Doom Eternal soundtrack on Youtube (and doing some gamerips of my own so I can have it on my iPod). I enjoy them very much. I've learned a couple of the songs on guitar and bass.

With the new score, it sounds like Mick Gordon got a lot more comfortable with the sound that he created for 2016 Doom. 2016's soundtrack was more unhinged and raw, just trying to slap as hard as possible with enormous sounds, two-note bass synth riffs, and djent. Eternal's soundtrack slaps just as hard, but it's more focused. The amount of guitar-based music is more proportionate to the synth-based music, and the synths sound a lot "cleaner". There's still dirty parts, but it's not just the "run everything through as many pedals as possible" approach of 2016's soundtrack. And - believe it or not - the soundtrack takes a foray into genuine heavy metal riffs and not just djent on the Super Gore Nest combat suite. It's also really cool how a lot of themes from previous Doom games have been brought back.

I heard themes from all of these original Doom tracks:
At Doom's Gate (of course)
Dark Halls (twice - once in the main menu, once in the ARC complex, I think)
Opening To Hell (main menu & Icon of Sin original boss theme)
Sweet Little Dead Bunny (I don't think the track made it into the game, but it's in the game files)
Sinister (Cultist base, re-made by that guy with the super-deep vocals)
Residual (Doom 2016 ambient track, re-made for the Khan Maykr's realm)
Doom 3 intro (plays somewhere in the Mars Core mission, I think)
E1M8 "Victory" music (Betrayer's theme, also plays in Exultia)

The only thing I found to be a bit cheesy was the "heavy metal choir". It either sounds like a massive hardcore gang shout or very loud whispering. Both of which have been done before.

But everything else is very recognizable. It's a game score, but the pieces still stick in your head along with the gameplay. Usually I despise djent-based music, but the style that Mick Gordon has now perfected is unique enough for me to look past it. Hell, I'd be up for what all those like-grubbing Youtube commenters are saying about deeming the games' soundtracks a new genre: Vegacore... Marscore... "DOOM" metal... Ardjent...

While I consider 2016 Doom to be a superior game to Doom Eternal, I consider Eternal's soundtrack to be superior to 2016's soundtrack. I'm looking forward to the official release.

Edit: new DLC, new music.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.


Last edited by Lord_Of_Diamonds on Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
Goatfangs
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:02 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:27 pm 
 

Hahaha, I like "Ardjent"

And I agree that Mick Gordon not only made a kick ass soundtrack for Doom and Doom Eternal, but managed to make a new genre in the process. I don't know if it would be considered metal by MA standards, especially being that it relies on a LOT of electronica/industrial and ambient, but it's definitely something that has not been quite done before.

Also "Sign of Evil" (E1M8) is also in the soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9J94_Blfnk - this one gave me chills when I first heard it.

The sheer number of throwbacks in Doom Eternal really impressed me, especially as someone who grew up with id software games. I love that there are Commander Keen songs you can collect, and then wander around Fortress of Doom with that playing in the background.

It makes me want a proper Commander Keen sequel, not a mobile title knockoff either. A proper platformer for PC.
_________________
Openly LGBTQ+
In defiance of Christofascists

And they'll tell you black is really white - The moon is just the sun at night - And when you walk in golden halls - You get to keep the gold that falls - It's Heaven and Hell
RIP DIO

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:44 pm 
 

Goatfangs wrote:
Hahaha, I like "Ardjent"

And I agree that Mick Gordon not only made a kick ass soundtrack for Doom and Doom Eternal, but managed to make a new genre in the process. I don't know if it would be considered metal by MA standards, especially being that it relies on a LOT of electronica/industrial and ambient, but it's definitely something that has not been quite done before.

Also "Sign of Evil" (E1M8) is also in the soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9J94_Blfnk - this one gave me chills when I first heard it.

The sheer number of throwbacks in Doom Eternal really impressed me, especially as someone who grew up with id software games. I love that there are Commander Keen songs you can collect, and then wander around Fortress of Doom with that playing in the background.

It makes me want a proper Commander Keen sequel, not a mobile title knockoff either. A proper platformer for PC.


Whoa, that is Sign of Evil! That passed right by me when I heard it in-game.

I love the collectible albums too. Basically every major id title has a song in the collectibles. The Quake Champions one interested me quite a bit. It's sort of a post-hardcore/metalcore thing that I wouldn't mind hearing more of. Never played the game, never heard the soundtrack, and I think the same guy who wrote it keeps popping up in my YouTube recommendations with Doom OST remakes all the time.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
Adriankat
Veteran

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:54 pm
Posts: 2775
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:26 pm 
 

Hot take, but I feel like Mick Gordon writes much more interesting djent music than most actual djent bands. I'm not even talking about the synthy industrial or ambient influence, but the parts where he just fucking rips & tears on the guitar. A big part of why I think this is because he writes actual riffs instead of just playing cool grooves and rhythms.

Ex: BFG 10,000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMNW7qTNjJ0

That main riff hits harder than a blood punch.

Edit
Quote:
The Quake Champions one interested me quite a bit. It's sort of a post-hardcore/metalcore thing that I wouldn't mind hearing more of. Never played the game, never heard the soundtrack, and I think the same guy who wrote it keeps popping up in my YouTube recommendations with Doom OST remakes all the time.

That would be Andrew Hulshult. The guy's sort of a boomer shooter icon at the moment. Did the soundtracks for Dusk, Amid Evil, and Wrath.
Ex: Keepers of the Gate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvyM6ZKZx6U
_________________
Scoop eyeballs, not mids.

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:09 pm 
 

Adriankat wrote:
Hot take, but I feel like Mick Gordon writes much more interesting djent music than most actual djent bands. I'm not even talking about the synthy industrial or ambient influence, but the parts where he just fucking rips & tears on the guitar. A big part of why I think this is because he writes actual riffs instead of just playing cool grooves and rhythms.

Ex: BFG 10,000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMNW7qTNjJ0

That main riff hits harder than a blood punch.

I agree with that. I mean, when he does do guitar stuff it's still two-note djenting but he makes it his own somehow. It's not quite cookie-cutter. I have no idea whether this is true or not, but Mick strikes me as a person who isn't very well-versed in the heavy metal world, save for a few big names & pseudo-metal acts like Meshuggah (I believe he is friends with their guitarist). Therefore, when creating metal-influenced music, he only has his own brain to draw from instead of just copying the style of some other band he heard.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
kingnuuuur
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 2335
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:24 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Whoa, that is Sign of Evil! That passed right by me when I heard it in-game.

You could say that that's not a good sign.

:boo:
_________________
Watch Dominion

Top
 Profile  
GoatBoat
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:33 am
Posts: 114
Location: Laos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:17 am 
 

I'm not a huge fan of it, honestly. The original Doom had a lot of variety in its music, and that's lost to a soundtrack that is mostly the same chuggah chuggah over and over with some electronic beeps in the background. It's definitely better than most -core, though.

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:10 pm 
 

GoatBoat wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of it, honestly. The original Doom had a lot of variety in its music, and that's lost to a soundtrack that is mostly the same chuggah chuggah over and over with some electronic beeps in the background. It's definitely better than most -core, though.


Yeah, the original Doom soundtracks were something else. They made great use of the technology that was available at the time. Like, on "Countdown to Death" from the Doom 2 soundtrack, there's a different MIDI track for each note of the pizzicato strings part, panned left and right incrementally to get a circular panning effect.

I agree that they were a lot more varied, but the songwriting bored the crap out of me. Most of the time, you have a twelve-bar blues chord progression on some instrument, and every time it starts over, you add a new instrument. Repeat several times for several tracks. But then, I suppose I'm unfairly biased because the main thing I hate about blues is the mind-numbingly predictable chord progressions and melodies.

edit: and there were a lot of shameless rip-offs of well-known metal/rock songs present too. Pantera's "This Love", S.O.D's "Sargent D and the S.O.D", and Alice In Chains' "Them Bones" come to mind immediately. I think there was also an unused track that was a rip-off of "Rusty Cage" by Soundgarden. (melodic racing bike noises intensify)
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 303
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:49 am 
 

The new Doom games are way too intense to support riff-based music. The songs basically only play when there's a battle going on and there's literally no time to appreciate a riff while you're trying not to die to fifty things at once so the move to a far more rhythmic djenty style where the music just senselessly beats you without getting in the way makes total sense. Also let's be real: if Doom 1 and 2 were riffing on the popular metal of their day, it only makes sense that a Doom game made in 2014-2016 would use the hot new "metal" genre. Cheesy 80's/90's metal would be absolutely tonally incoherent.

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:40 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
Also let's be real: if Doom 1 and 2 were riffing on the popular metal of their day, it only makes sense that a Doom game made in 2014-2016 would use the hot new "metal" genre. Cheesy 80's/90's metal would be absolutely tonally incoherent.

That makes sense, but the one downside to that musical approach is now everybody and their dog who didn't listen to metal before 2016 Doom but fell in love with the soundtracks thinks that they're metal. It's obvious that the soundtracks aren't metal (djent, nu-rock, and electronica being the primary focus), but people hear the heavy guitars and drums and now we have a new gigantic horde of people who have a misconception of metal. I actually got into a comments section war a few weeks ago about how un-metal the soundtracks are, which ended when someone said something like "I give up. I don't know why I even bother arguing with someone who thinks that Meshuggah is punk" (I had stated that djenting is a derivative of hardcore, not metal).

By the way, I think the official soundtrack was just released to the people who bought the Collector's Edition. Someone's uploaded it to YouTube.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 10162
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:24 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Vadara wrote:
Also let's be real: if Doom 1 and 2 were riffing on the popular metal of their day, it only makes sense that a Doom game made in 2014-2016 would use the hot new "metal" genre. Cheesy 80's/90's metal would be absolutely tonally incoherent.

That makes sense, but the one downside to that musical approach is now everybody and their dog who didn't listen to metal before 2016 Doom but fell in love with the soundtracks thinks that they're metal.


This is something metalheads don't seem to realize until they get a little older, but this is the absolute peak definition of a non-problem.
_________________
Lair of the Bastard: LATEST REVIEW: Pantera - Reinventing the Steel
The Outer RIM - Uatism: The dogs bark in street slang

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:40 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
That makes sense, but the one downside to that musical approach is now everybody and their dog who didn't listen to metal before 2016 Doom but fell in love with the soundtracks thinks that they're metal.


This is something metalheads don't seem to realize until they get a little older, but this is the absolute peak definition of a non-problem.

Maybe it's just a problem that I have. This site taught me what is metal and what is not, and I get annoyed at little things like that a lot more than perhaps I should.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
Juno_A
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:39 am
Posts: 23
Location: Ithaca, NY, USA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:57 am 
 

Quote:
(melodic racing bike noises intensify)


While I agree with both sides of the discussion here, I just wanted to say 'LOL' at this interpretation of a song.

Oh, yeah, and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3rO4UEqFjo -- Goddammit. As much as I would have preferred a straight-up metal soundtrack, I did appreciate his contributions to the frenetic gameplay and thought them appropriate given the difficulties of matching up awesome riffs to awesome gameplay, in my opinion. But to know he likely won't return for the sequel is pretty discouraging.

Top
 Profile  
VaderCrush
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:05 am
Posts: 72
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:21 pm 
 

Part of it might be that I find the new Doom games pretty boring overall, but Mick Gordon's music is incredibly samey and annoying to me at best. It just drowns into the background chugging monotonously while stuff happens onscreen. Wish they would have gotten Andrew Hulshult, he's got a way better track record with shooter osts

Top
 Profile  
kingnuuuur
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 2335
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:21 pm 
 

The bwaaa chugga chugga possessed vacuum cleaner routine does get old really fast.

I think full on extreme metal could work well in a DOOM soundtrack. I fully embrace the thought of Frank Mullen being the voice of Doomguy in combat, although I can see riff-heavy instrumentals working just as well too.
_________________
Watch Dominion

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:38 pm 
 

Juno_A wrote:
While I agree with both sides of the discussion here, I just wanted to say 'LOL' at this interpretation of a song.

Oh, yeah, and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3rO4UEqFjo -- Goddammit. As much as I would have preferred a straight-up metal soundtrack, I did appreciate his contributions to the frenetic gameplay and thought them appropriate given the difficulties of matching up awesome riffs to awesome gameplay, in my opinion. But to know he likely won't return for the sequel is pretty discouraging.

The official soundtrack is pretty disappointing, I gotta admit. Many of the transitions from song section to song section feel awkward, and of course the brickwall mastering sounds bad.

I, for one, kinda hope that they don't make a sequel to Doom Eternal. I liked the game initially when I first played it, but now that I've played it through a few times (and gone back and played 2016 Doom too), I've found so many things wrong with it that I really don't want id to have their legacy screwed up anymore. Now what I would like to see is a re-make of the original Quake, but with the graphics of a modern id Tech engine.

kingnuuuur wrote:
The bwaaa chugga chugga possessed vacuum cleaner routine does get old really fast.
I think full on extreme metal could work well in a DOOM soundtrack. I fully embrace the thought of Frank Mullen being the voice of Doomguy in combat, although I can see riff-heavy instrumentals working just as well too.


Funny you should mention that, because I've actually been toying with the idea of doing a concept album about Doom with the musical style and all that, but with an increased emphasis on genuine metal music. I just have to learn how to write a decent death metal riff and re-create Mick Gordon's bass synthesizer sound first. Ha ha.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
Gravetemplar
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2160
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 5:56 pm 
 

Seems like the whole process was a mess.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/ ... en_letter/

DOOM Eternal OST Open Letter

Spoiler: show
An open letter to the incredible DOOM community.

Over the past couple weeks, I’ve seen lots of discussion centered around the release of the DOOM Eternal Original Game Soundtrack (OST). While many fans like the OST, there is speculation and criticism around the fact that the game’s talented and popular composer, Mick Gordon, edited and “mixed” only 12 of the 59 tracks on the OST - the remainder being edited by our Lead Audio Designer here at id.

Some have suggested that we’ve been careless with or disrespectful of the game music. Others have speculated that Mick wasn’t given the time or creative freedom to deliver something different or better. The fact is – none of that is true.

What has become unacceptable to me are the direct and personal attacks on our Lead Audio Designer - particularly considering his outstanding contributions to the game – as well as the damage this mischaracterization is doing to the many talented people who have contributed to the game and continue to support it. I feel it is my responsibility to respond on their behalf. We’ve enjoyed an amazingly open and honest relationship with our fans, so given your passion on this topic and the depth of misunderstanding, I’m compelled to present the entire story.

When asked on social media about his future with DOOM, Mick has replied, “doubt we’ll work together again.” This was surprising to see, as we have never discussed ending our collaboration with him until now - but his statement does highlight a complicated relationship. Our challenges have never been a matter of creative differences. Mick has had near limitless creative autonomy over music composition and mixing in our recent DOOM games, and I think the results have been tremendous. His music is defining - and much like Bobby Prince’s music was synonymous with the original DOOM games from the 90s, Mick’s unique style and sound have become synonymous with our latest projects. He’s deserved every award won, and I hope his incredible score for DOOM Eternal is met with similar accolades – he will deserve them all.

Talent aside, we have struggled to connect on some of the more production-related realities of development, while communication around those issues have eroded trust. For id, this has created an unsustainable pattern of project uncertainty and risk.

At E3 last year, we announced that the OST would be included with the DOOM Eternal Collector’s Edition (CE) version of the game. At that point in time we didn’t have Mick under contract for the OST and because of ongoing issues receiving the music we needed for the game, did not want to add the distraction at that time. After discussions with Mick in January of this year, we reached general agreement on the terms for Mick to deliver the OST by early March - in time to meet the consumer commitment of including the digital OST with the DOOM Eternal CE at launch. The terms of the OST agreement with Mick were similar to the agreement on DOOM (2016) in that it required him to deliver a minimum of 12 tracks, but added bonus payments for on-time delivery. The agreement also gives him complete creative control over what he delivers.

On February 24, Mick reached out to communicate that he and his team were fine with the terms of the agreement but that there was a lot more work involved than anticipated, a lot of content to wade through, and that while he was making progress, it was taking longer than expected. He apologized and asked that “ideally” he be given an additional four weeks to get everything together. He offered that the extra time would allow him to provide upwards of 30 tracks and a run-time over two hours – including all music from the game, arranged in soundtrack format and as he felt it would best represent the score in the best possible way.

Mick’s request was accommodated, allowing for an even longer extension of almost six weeks – with a new final delivery date of mid-April. In that communication, we noted our understanding of him needing the extra time to ensure the OST meets his quality bar, and even moved the bonus payment for on-time delivery to align with the new dates so he could still receive the full compensation intended, which he will. In early March, we announced via Twitter that the OST component in the DOOM Eternal CE was delayed and would not be available as originally intended.

It’s important to note at this point that not only were we disappointed to not deliver the OST with the launch of the CE, we needed to be mindful of consumer protection laws in many countries that allow customers to demand a full refund for a product if a product is not delivered on or about its announced availability date. Even with that, the mid-April delivery would allow us to meet our commitments to customers while also allowing Mick the time he had ideally requested.

As we hit April, we grew increasingly concerned about Mick delivering the OST to us on time. I personally asked our Lead Audio Designer at id, Chad, to begin work on id versions of the tracks – a back-up plan should Mick not be able to deliver on time. To complete this, Chad would need to take all of the music as Mick had delivered for the game, edit the pieces together into tracks, and arrange those tracks into a comprehensive OST.

It is important to understand that there is a difference between music mixed for inclusion in the game and music mixed for inclusion in the OST. Several people have noted this difference when looking at the waveforms but have misunderstood why there is a difference. When a track looks “bricked” or like a bar, where the extreme highs and lows of the dynamic range are clipped, this is how we receive the music from Mick for inclusion in the game - in fragments pre-mixed and pre-compressed by him. Those music fragments he delivers then go into our audio system and are combined in real-time as you play through the game.

Alternatively, when mixing and mastering for an OST, Mick starts with his source material (which we don’t typically have access to) and re-mixes for the OST to ensure the highs and lows are not clipped – as seen in his 12 OST tracks. This is all important to note because Chad only had these pre-mixed and pre-compressed game fragments from Mick to work with in editing the id versions of the tracks. He simply edited the same music you hear in game to create a comprehensive OST – though some of the edits did require slight volume adjustments to prevent further clipping.

In early April, I sent an email to Mick reiterating the importance of hitting his extended contractual due date and outlined in detail the reasons we needed to meet our commitments to our customers. I let him know that Chad had started work on the back-up tracks but reiterated that our expectation and preference was to release what he delivered. Several days later, Mick suggested that he and Chad (working on the back-up) combine what each had been working on to come up with a more comprehensive release.

The next day, Chad informed Mick that he was rebuilding tracks based on the chunks/fragments mixed and delivered for the game. Mick replied that he personally was contracted for 12 tracks and suggested again that we use some of Chad’s arrangements to fill out the soundtrack beyond the 12 songs. Mick asked Chad to send over what he’d done so that he could package everything up and balance it all for delivery. As requested, Chad sent Mick everything he had done.

On the day the music was due from Mick, I asked what we could expect from him. Mick indicated that he was still finishing a number of things but that it would be no-less than 12 tracks and about 60 minutes of music and that it would come in late evening. The next morning, Mick informed us that he’d run into some issues with several tracks and that it would take additional time to finish, indicating he understood we were in a tight position for launching and asked how we’d like to proceed. We asked him to deliver the tracks he’d completed and then follow-up with the remaining tracks as soon as possible.

After listening to the 9 tracks he’d delivered, I wrote him that I didn’t think those tracks would meet the expectations of DOOM or Mick fans – there was only one track with the type of heavy-combat music people would expect, and most of the others were ambient in nature. I asked for a call to discuss. Instead, he replied that the additional tracks he was trying to deliver were in fact the combat tracks and that they are the most difficult to get right. He again suggested that if more heavy tracks are needed, Chad’s tracks could be used to flesh it out further.

After considering his recommendations, I let Mick know that we would move forward with the combined effort, to provide a more comprehensive collection of the music from the game. I let Mick know that Chad had ordered his edited tracks as a chronology of the game music and that to create the combined work, Chad would insert Mick‘s delivered tracks into the OST chronology where appropriate and then delete his own tracks containing similar thematic material. I said that if his additional combat tracks come in soon, we’d do the same to include them in the OST or offer them later as bonus tracks. Mick delivered 2 final tracks, which we incorporated, and he wished us luck wrapping it up. I thanked him and let him know that we’d be happy to deliver his final track as a bonus later on and reminded him of our plans for distribution of the OST first to CE owners, then later on other distribution platforms.

On April 19, we released the OST to CE owners. As mentioned earlier, soon after release, some of our fans noted and posted online the waveform difference between the tracks Mick had mixed from his source files and the tracks that Chad had edited from Mick's final game music, with Mick’s knowledge and at his suggestion.

In a reply to one fan, Mick said he, “didn’t mix those and wouldn’t have done that.” That, and a couple of other simple messages distancing from the realities and truths I’ve just outlined has generated unnecessary speculation and judgement - and led some to vilify and attack an id employee who had simply stepped up to the request of delivering a more comprehensive OST. Mick has shared with me that the attacks on Chad are distressing, but he’s done nothing to change the conversation.

After reaching out to Mick several times via email to understand what prompted his online posts, we were able to talk. He shared several issues that I’d also like to address.

First, he said that he was surprised by the scope of what was released – the 59 tracks. Chad had sent Mick everything more than a week before the final deadline, and I described to him our plan to combine the id-edited tracks with his own tracks (as he’d suggested doing). The tracks Mick delivered covered only a portion of the music in the game, so the only way to deliver a comprehensive OST was to combine the tracks Mick-delivered with the tracks id had edited from game music. If Mick is dissatisfied with the content of his delivery, we would certainly entertain distributing additional tracks.

I also know that Mick feels that some of the work included in the id-edited tracks was originally intended more as demos or mock-ups when originally sent. However, Chad only used music that was in-game or was part of a cinematic music construction kit.

Mick also communicated that he wasn’t particularly happy with some of the edits in the id tracks. I understand this from an artist’s perspective and realize this opinion is what prompted him to distance from the work in the first place. That said, from our perspective, we didn’t want to be involved in the content of the OST and did absolutely nothing to prevent him from delivering on his commitments within the timeframe he asked for, and we extended multiple times.

Finally, Mick was concerned that we’d given Chad co-composer credit – which we did not do and would never have done. In the metadata, Mick is listed as the sole composer and sole album artist. On tracks edited by id, Chad is listed as a contributing artist. That was the best option to clearly delineate for fans which tracks Mick delivered and which tracks id’s Lead Audio Designer had edited. It would have been misleading for us to attribute tracks solely to Mick that someone else had edited.

If you’ve read all of this, thank you for your time and attention. As for the immediate future, we are at the point of moving on and won’t be working with Mick on the DLC we currently have in production. As I’ve mentioned, his music is incredible, he is a rare talent, and I hope he wins many awards for his contribution to DOOM Eternal at the end of the year.

I’m as disappointed as anyone that we’re at this point, but as we have many times before, we will adapt to changing circumstances and pursue the most unique and talented artists in the industry with whom to collaborate. Our team has enjoyed this creative collaboration a great deal and we know Mick will continue to delight fans for many years ahead.

With respect and appreciation,

Marty Stratton
Executive Producer, DOOM Eternal

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 7:40 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Seems like the whole process was a mess.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/ ... en_letter/

DOOM Eternal OST Open Letter

Spoiler: show
An open letter to the incredible DOOM community.

Over the past couple weeks, I’ve seen lots of discussion centered around the release of the DOOM Eternal Original Game Soundtrack (OST). While many fans like the OST, there is speculation and criticism around the fact that the game’s talented and popular composer, Mick Gordon, edited and “mixed” only 12 of the 59 tracks on the OST - the remainder being edited by our Lead Audio Designer here at id.

Some have suggested that we’ve been careless with or disrespectful of the game music. Others have speculated that Mick wasn’t given the time or creative freedom to deliver something different or better. The fact is – none of that is true.

What has become unacceptable to me are the direct and personal attacks on our Lead Audio Designer - particularly considering his outstanding contributions to the game – as well as the damage this mischaracterization is doing to the many talented people who have contributed to the game and continue to support it. I feel it is my responsibility to respond on their behalf. We’ve enjoyed an amazingly open and honest relationship with our fans, so given your passion on this topic and the depth of misunderstanding, I’m compelled to present the entire story.

When asked on social media about his future with DOOM, Mick has replied, “doubt we’ll work together again.” This was surprising to see, as we have never discussed ending our collaboration with him until now - but his statement does highlight a complicated relationship. Our challenges have never been a matter of creative differences. Mick has had near limitless creative autonomy over music composition and mixing in our recent DOOM games, and I think the results have been tremendous. His music is defining - and much like Bobby Prince’s music was synonymous with the original DOOM games from the 90s, Mick’s unique style and sound have become synonymous with our latest projects. He’s deserved every award won, and I hope his incredible score for DOOM Eternal is met with similar accolades – he will deserve them all.

Talent aside, we have struggled to connect on some of the more production-related realities of development, while communication around those issues have eroded trust. For id, this has created an unsustainable pattern of project uncertainty and risk.

At E3 last year, we announced that the OST would be included with the DOOM Eternal Collector’s Edition (CE) version of the game. At that point in time we didn’t have Mick under contract for the OST and because of ongoing issues receiving the music we needed for the game, did not want to add the distraction at that time. After discussions with Mick in January of this year, we reached general agreement on the terms for Mick to deliver the OST by early March - in time to meet the consumer commitment of including the digital OST with the DOOM Eternal CE at launch. The terms of the OST agreement with Mick were similar to the agreement on DOOM (2016) in that it required him to deliver a minimum of 12 tracks, but added bonus payments for on-time delivery. The agreement also gives him complete creative control over what he delivers.

On February 24, Mick reached out to communicate that he and his team were fine with the terms of the agreement but that there was a lot more work involved than anticipated, a lot of content to wade through, and that while he was making progress, it was taking longer than expected. He apologized and asked that “ideally” he be given an additional four weeks to get everything together. He offered that the extra time would allow him to provide upwards of 30 tracks and a run-time over two hours – including all music from the game, arranged in soundtrack format and as he felt it would best represent the score in the best possible way.

Mick’s request was accommodated, allowing for an even longer extension of almost six weeks – with a new final delivery date of mid-April. In that communication, we noted our understanding of him needing the extra time to ensure the OST meets his quality bar, and even moved the bonus payment for on-time delivery to align with the new dates so he could still receive the full compensation intended, which he will. In early March, we announced via Twitter that the OST component in the DOOM Eternal CE was delayed and would not be available as originally intended.

It’s important to note at this point that not only were we disappointed to not deliver the OST with the launch of the CE, we needed to be mindful of consumer protection laws in many countries that allow customers to demand a full refund for a product if a product is not delivered on or about its announced availability date. Even with that, the mid-April delivery would allow us to meet our commitments to customers while also allowing Mick the time he had ideally requested.

As we hit April, we grew increasingly concerned about Mick delivering the OST to us on time. I personally asked our Lead Audio Designer at id, Chad, to begin work on id versions of the tracks – a back-up plan should Mick not be able to deliver on time. To complete this, Chad would need to take all of the music as Mick had delivered for the game, edit the pieces together into tracks, and arrange those tracks into a comprehensive OST.

It is important to understand that there is a difference between music mixed for inclusion in the game and music mixed for inclusion in the OST. Several people have noted this difference when looking at the waveforms but have misunderstood why there is a difference. When a track looks “bricked” or like a bar, where the extreme highs and lows of the dynamic range are clipped, this is how we receive the music from Mick for inclusion in the game - in fragments pre-mixed and pre-compressed by him. Those music fragments he delivers then go into our audio system and are combined in real-time as you play through the game.

Alternatively, when mixing and mastering for an OST, Mick starts with his source material (which we don’t typically have access to) and re-mixes for the OST to ensure the highs and lows are not clipped – as seen in his 12 OST tracks. This is all important to note because Chad only had these pre-mixed and pre-compressed game fragments from Mick to work with in editing the id versions of the tracks. He simply edited the same music you hear in game to create a comprehensive OST – though some of the edits did require slight volume adjustments to prevent further clipping.

In early April, I sent an email to Mick reiterating the importance of hitting his extended contractual due date and outlined in detail the reasons we needed to meet our commitments to our customers. I let him know that Chad had started work on the back-up tracks but reiterated that our expectation and preference was to release what he delivered. Several days later, Mick suggested that he and Chad (working on the back-up) combine what each had been working on to come up with a more comprehensive release.

The next day, Chad informed Mick that he was rebuilding tracks based on the chunks/fragments mixed and delivered for the game. Mick replied that he personally was contracted for 12 tracks and suggested again that we use some of Chad’s arrangements to fill out the soundtrack beyond the 12 songs. Mick asked Chad to send over what he’d done so that he could package everything up and balance it all for delivery. As requested, Chad sent Mick everything he had done.

On the day the music was due from Mick, I asked what we could expect from him. Mick indicated that he was still finishing a number of things but that it would be no-less than 12 tracks and about 60 minutes of music and that it would come in late evening. The next morning, Mick informed us that he’d run into some issues with several tracks and that it would take additional time to finish, indicating he understood we were in a tight position for launching and asked how we’d like to proceed. We asked him to deliver the tracks he’d completed and then follow-up with the remaining tracks as soon as possible.

After listening to the 9 tracks he’d delivered, I wrote him that I didn’t think those tracks would meet the expectations of DOOM or Mick fans – there was only one track with the type of heavy-combat music people would expect, and most of the others were ambient in nature. I asked for a call to discuss. Instead, he replied that the additional tracks he was trying to deliver were in fact the combat tracks and that they are the most difficult to get right. He again suggested that if more heavy tracks are needed, Chad’s tracks could be used to flesh it out further.

After considering his recommendations, I let Mick know that we would move forward with the combined effort, to provide a more comprehensive collection of the music from the game. I let Mick know that Chad had ordered his edited tracks as a chronology of the game music and that to create the combined work, Chad would insert Mick‘s delivered tracks into the OST chronology where appropriate and then delete his own tracks containing similar thematic material. I said that if his additional combat tracks come in soon, we’d do the same to include them in the OST or offer them later as bonus tracks. Mick delivered 2 final tracks, which we incorporated, and he wished us luck wrapping it up. I thanked him and let him know that we’d be happy to deliver his final track as a bonus later on and reminded him of our plans for distribution of the OST first to CE owners, then later on other distribution platforms.

On April 19, we released the OST to CE owners. As mentioned earlier, soon after release, some of our fans noted and posted online the waveform difference between the tracks Mick had mixed from his source files and the tracks that Chad had edited from Mick's final game music, with Mick’s knowledge and at his suggestion.

In a reply to one fan, Mick said he, “didn’t mix those and wouldn’t have done that.” That, and a couple of other simple messages distancing from the realities and truths I’ve just outlined has generated unnecessary speculation and judgement - and led some to vilify and attack an id employee who had simply stepped up to the request of delivering a more comprehensive OST. Mick has shared with me that the attacks on Chad are distressing, but he’s done nothing to change the conversation.

After reaching out to Mick several times via email to understand what prompted his online posts, we were able to talk. He shared several issues that I’d also like to address.

First, he said that he was surprised by the scope of what was released – the 59 tracks. Chad had sent Mick everything more than a week before the final deadline, and I described to him our plan to combine the id-edited tracks with his own tracks (as he’d suggested doing). The tracks Mick delivered covered only a portion of the music in the game, so the only way to deliver a comprehensive OST was to combine the tracks Mick-delivered with the tracks id had edited from game music. If Mick is dissatisfied with the content of his delivery, we would certainly entertain distributing additional tracks.

I also know that Mick feels that some of the work included in the id-edited tracks was originally intended more as demos or mock-ups when originally sent. However, Chad only used music that was in-game or was part of a cinematic music construction kit.

Mick also communicated that he wasn’t particularly happy with some of the edits in the id tracks. I understand this from an artist’s perspective and realize this opinion is what prompted him to distance from the work in the first place. That said, from our perspective, we didn’t want to be involved in the content of the OST and did absolutely nothing to prevent him from delivering on his commitments within the timeframe he asked for, and we extended multiple times.

Finally, Mick was concerned that we’d given Chad co-composer credit – which we did not do and would never have done. In the metadata, Mick is listed as the sole composer and sole album artist. On tracks edited by id, Chad is listed as a contributing artist. That was the best option to clearly delineate for fans which tracks Mick delivered and which tracks id’s Lead Audio Designer had edited. It would have been misleading for us to attribute tracks solely to Mick that someone else had edited.

If you’ve read all of this, thank you for your time and attention. As for the immediate future, we are at the point of moving on and won’t be working with Mick on the DLC we currently have in production. As I’ve mentioned, his music is incredible, he is a rare talent, and I hope he wins many awards for his contribution to DOOM Eternal at the end of the year.

I’m as disappointed as anyone that we’re at this point, but as we have many times before, we will adapt to changing circumstances and pursue the most unique and talented artists in the industry with whom to collaborate. Our team has enjoyed this creative collaboration a great deal and we know Mick will continue to delight fans for many years ahead.

With respect and appreciation,

Marty Stratton
Executive Producer, DOOM Eternal

So it's all because of a deadline that they had to meet, huh? Not Bethesda's fault at all, huh?

Hopefully this means that the official soundtrack release on streaming and CD and all that will be a 100% Mick Gordon mix.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
Kerpak
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:48 am
Posts: 201
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 11:28 pm 
 

Adriankat wrote:
Hot take, but I feel like Mick Gordon writes much more interesting djent music than most actual djent bands. I'm not even talking about the synthy industrial or ambient influence, but the parts where he just fucking rips & tears on the guitar. A big part of why I think this is because he writes actual riffs instead of just playing cool grooves and rhythms.

Ex: BFG 10,000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMNW7qTNjJ0

That main riff hits harder than a blood punch.



Djent is an abortion of a genre so I like to think of this as the natural evolution of Fear Factory.

Top
 Profile  
MaleficDevilry
Anointer of the Sick

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:23 am
Posts: 615
Location: USA
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 1:00 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
So it's all because of a deadline that they had to meet, huh? Not Bethesda's fault at all, huh?

Hopefully this means that the official soundtrack release on streaming and CD and all that will be a 100% Mick Gordon mix.


It sounds like Mick Gordon will not be working on anything DOOM related ever again.

Top
 Profile  
Gravetemplar
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2160
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 6:50 am 
 

MaleficDevilry wrote:
Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
So it's all because of a deadline that they had to meet, huh? Not Bethesda's fault at all, huh?

Hopefully this means that the official soundtrack release on streaming and CD and all that will be a 100% Mick Gordon mix.


It sounds like Mick Gordon will not be working on anything DOOM related ever again.

Yeah, I'd like to hear the other side of the events but to me it reads as if Mick Gordon is really unprofessional and incapable of meeting deadlines even when granted more time to work.

I'm also not sure how to feel about the soundtrack. It works in game but hearing those riffs on youtube again made me realize they are completely forgettable and uninispired. Not sure why this guy is so praised.

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:18 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Yeah, I'd like to hear the other side of the events but to me it reads as if Mick Gordon is really unprofessional and incapable of meeting deadlines even when granted more time to work.

I'm not so sure about that. Remember how many months it took for Doom 2016's soundtrack to get released after the game came out? I think that they just wanted to get the soundtrack out there as soon as possible because they know that it's one of the Doom series's biggest selling points.

I'm not sure how long it took the music to be finalized for in-game use, and if it was just a few months before the game released then I can see the soundtrack taking a longer time to mix properly. I also read a post on the Doom subreddit where that open letter originated that speculated that Mick had run out of ideas after spending all of them on 2016 Doom and had to work especially hard to come up with as much music as he did for Eternal. And the music that he delivered for Eternal was great.

I don't think that it's a case of Mick Gordon being unprofessional. As far as I know, a scandal like this has never happened between him and a client before. I think it's just a promise made that couldn't be kept. Whether it's an unprofessional composer or a greedy publisher, this situation has created tons of needless drama and will always be a stain in the Doom community. I hope that the people who pushed the original rumor feel stupid because of it.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:39 am 
 

Well, two new composers have been brought in to replace Mick Gordon in the new DLC, and it's amazing... it's like he never even left. Andrew Hulshult and David Levy have absorbed the modern Doom style like a sponge.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 303
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:06 pm 
 

Adriankat wrote:
Hot take, but I feel like Mick Gordon writes much more interesting djent music than most actual djent bands. I'm not even talking about the synthy industrial or ambient influence, but the parts where he just fucking rips & tears on the guitar. A big part of why I think this is because he writes actual riffs instead of just playing cool grooves and rhythms.

Ex: BFG 10,000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMNW7qTNjJ0

That main riff hits harder than a blood punch.


That's cause his music doesn't really sound like Djent at all, really? Most djent is softer than this and focused on lots of technical dissonant tapping sections, highly ambient atmospherics, and other things that Gordon's music is the direct opposite of. He's using slightly similar guitar tones, but his songs are basically just ridiculously heavy chug riffs with no real melodies to speak of.

Top
 Profile  
Goatfangs
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:02 pm
Posts: 2663
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:30 am 
 

I think the new DLC soundtrack is adequate, but it doesn't have the metal driven punch that Mick Gordon's tracks have. At least that I have heard so far. If they incorporate a motif or few from the original Bobby Prince soundtracks and keep that going, however, I would be happy. The way Mick Gordon did that, even with the 2016 soundtrack, was amazing.

Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMGr6Hy_u60

The acoustic guitar melody is from the intermission screens in Doom, after you beat the final level of each episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVDyFdMCRNc - then this one takes the main melody from E1M8, which is ingrained into every classic Doom fan's memory as the first time we encountered a really tough badass demon (and TWO of them to boot).
_________________
Openly LGBTQ+
In defiance of Christofascists

And they'll tell you black is really white - The moon is just the sun at night - And when you walk in golden halls - You get to keep the gold that falls - It's Heaven and Hell
RIP DIO

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ObservationSlave, Sedition and Pockets, Unas and 39 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group