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DeadKid
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 264
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:16 am 
 

I see also that Piers Corbyn spoke in support of Trump, so he's definitely in a weird place. Of course, when you argue with these people that the government control is the appropriate action to get the best outcome, every reputable scientific organisation and every news website they disagree with is automatically part of the conspiracy.

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severzhavnost
Something Stupid

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2937
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:48 pm 
 

That’s odd. In North America, the militant left has been very Covid-compliant. It’s pretty much exclusively the right-wing libertarians who cause trouble, not counting businesses here and there who skirt the rules for commercial rather than political reasons.
Also, not political but kind of amusing, I’ve come across reports of Mexican drug cartels taking it upon themselves to enforce the Covid rules.
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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 580
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:15 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Also, not political but kind of amusing, I’ve come across reports of Mexican drug cartels taking it upon themselves to enforce the Covid rules.

Geez, if drug cartels are having to enforce COVID-19 restrictions, then maybe the government should put more effort in enforcing the laws.
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severzhavnost
Something Stupid

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2937
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:59 pm 
 

Slater922 wrote:
severzhavnost wrote:
Also, not political but kind of amusing, I’ve come across reports of Mexican drug cartels taking it upon themselves to enforce the Covid rules.

Geez, if drug cartels are having to enforce COVID-19 restrictions, then maybe the government should put more effort in enforcing the laws.


Well we shouldn’t poke at the Mexicans too much. They’re almost keeping pace with Canada’s bumbling vaccination program.
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Kimchi Waffle was made by World Institute of Kimchi in South Korea.
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Bulgogi Kimchi Bibimbap waffle burger! Holy shit! litterally shit!

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Malbordus
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:46 am
Posts: 152
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:53 pm 
 

The left definitely have plenty of loony to go round also, even regarding vaccines. There's a large overlap between left and "alternative" medicine, mistrust of big pharma. As an example my dad is a homeopath and won't vaccinate and sure enough Covid recently raged through the extended family although ultimately no harm done. I've had all the arguments, it's a waste of effort and one day they'll get something serious then drop their principle like a sack of shit.

See also the link between yoga and anti-vax e.g.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/yoga-disinformation-qanon-conspiracy-wellness

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Methuen
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1661
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:13 pm 
 

Something positive to come out of travel restrictions for COVID; it's helping to put the final nail into private rail in the UK - if they can't profit, they get out, and with no passengers, they can't profit. Missed the original publication of this in November, but hopefully it's the start of a trend.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54635421
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Hexenmacht46290
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Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
Posts: 157
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:39 pm 
 

I used to work with someone, who was a yoga instructor, and was into some really insane conspiracy shit. He never was telling people not to get vaccinated, but he was giving some dubious medical advice. People were willing to take his word, because yoga is “healthy,” and he was charismatic. He was university educated, and could speak well, and could impress uneducated people with obscure knowledge, so, a winning combination, to ensure credibility among the credulous.

Charisma doesn’t work on me, and I and he had some philosophical debates, while working together. I eventually got him to admit, that he wasn’t Hindu, and that his philosophy was actually just the “just world” view of “the secret.” He claimed that “linear time,” and objective reality weren’t actually real. He knew I wasn’t buying his shit, and we got along, so mostly he just told me about the conspiracy stuff for entertainment, and I laughed at it.

But then I found out, that the bison dumbass, from the riot, had a YouTube channel, where he talked about how he was doing occult battle with evil alien forces(http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/revie ... ock-part-1 this is the conspiracy universe that he believes in. It has reptilian shapeshifters, but isn’t David Icke, it’s its own lame sci-fi universe). It was the same dumb shit, that the yoga dude I worked with was into, and like him, the rioter was also a yoga instructor!

I used to watch videos and read internet stuff, back in the 2000s, and just laugh at it. But it’s pretty disturbing, that so much of the world can’t separate fact from fiction. I’m capable of watching X-files, and reading H.P. Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith, and knowing it’s not real. But all of these conspiracy theories just rip off each other, and old media, and people don’t realize it.

Pretty sad, to know that people around me, who would claim to be totally reasonable, and not in support of authoritarian coups, are asskissing enablers.
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Osore
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
Posts: 479
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:05 am 
 

For the people who can choose between different types of vaccines

First I would like to stress that any vaccine that can be chosen from a list in Serbia (Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca, Sputnik V, Sinopharm) is better than not getting vaccinated at all. The problem in scientific community is that Russians and Chinese are hiding data from the 3rd phase of clinical trials, which makes it more difficult to recommend these vaccines. (Phase 3 for Sinopharm is currently undergoing in Serbia - if you get this vaccine, you are among the people who are being monitored for side effects and effectiveness of the vaccine). By the way, phase 3 testing is done on a larger population sample (as oppose to phase 1 and 2), which increases the likelihood of getting statistically more significant data.

Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca have published relevant data in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

WHO provides a frequently updated link with status of vaccines here: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines. Newest update says WHO approves only Pfizer and Moderna: https://extranet.who.int/pqweb/sites/default/files/documents/Status_COVID_VAX_16Feb2021.pdf, as of February the 16th.

From a mechanistic viewpoint, Sinopharm made the vaccine using classic method, Sputnik V and AstraZeneca are based on a newer technology, and Pfizer and Moderna use the newest method based on RNA. If you are allergic to PEG (polyethylene glycol, alcohol found in many cosmetic products like cremes), don't take Pfizer. I have studied all these methods only in theory on my bachelor studies and they are complicated/draining, albeit understandable and easy to forget. If you insist, I can explain these to you quickly or you can find simple explanations online. What I would like to know are step-by-step details (protocols) and how it looks in practise. I might get plagued with transfection method in the future (not for the purpose of making vaccines), so let's not summon those demons.

Having all of this in mind, I have ticked Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca because I have data and I know every single component of these vaccines (data sheets can be found online), so if I get allergic reaction, at least I will know what I have inside of me. My grandfather had chosen the other two and got the call to get Sinopharm's vaccine, which is the only one available in our municipality. He received the second those on Friday last week and has no side-effects.

Also, if you want Pfizer, beware, they must not shake the content, it is clearly written in the instructions. RNA molecules are packed in nano-lipid vesicles and by shaking, they can be disturbed. ''Stripped'' RNAs cannot enter into your cells. I've heard that technicians shake them like classic vaccines.
I expect the call for the vaccination in a matter of days; I missed the previous one last week because someone at the institute didn't check mail box on time (not to mention they had to beg the authorities to prioritise/approve the vaccination of researchers and scientists and give us appointments). 40000 Pfizer vaccine have arrived in the country and this is the one I am going to ask for first.

I'll be back, hopefully with zero side-effects.

Be responsible, take the shot and share your story.
(・_・)ノ

Update:
Sputnik V phase 3 clinical trial data
Spoiler: show
Quote:
Our interim results of the phase 3 Gam-COVID-Vac trial show that the vaccine is 91·6% (95% CI 85·6–95·2) efficacious against COVID 19 (from day 21 after first dose, the day of receiving second dose).

Sputnik V COVID-19 vaccine candidate appears safe and effective


Last edited by Osore on Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wahn_nhaW
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
Posts: 190
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:14 am 
 

Osore wrote:
For the people who can choose between different types of vaccines

First I would like to stress that any vaccine that can be chosen from a list in Serbia (Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca, Sputnik V, Sinopharm) is better than not getting vaccinated at all. The problem in scientific community is that Russians and Chinese are hiding data from the 3rd phase of clinical trials, which makes it more difficult to recommend these vaccines. (Phase 3 for Sinopharm is currently undergoing in Serbia - if you get this vaccine, you are among the people who are being monitored for side effects and effectiveness of the vaccine). By the way, phase 3 testing is done on a larger population sample (as oppose to phase 1 and 2), which increases the likelihood of getting statistically more significant data.

Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca have published relevant data in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

WHO provides a frequently updated link with status of vaccines here: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines. Newest update says WHO approves only Pfizer and Moderna: https://extranet.who.int/pqweb/sites/default/files/documents/Status_COVID_VAX_16Feb2021.pdf, as of February the 16th.

From a mechanistic viewpoint, Sinopharm made the vaccine using classic method, Sputnik V and AstraZeneca are based on a newer technology, and Pfizer and Moderna use the newest method based on RNA. If you are allergic to PEG (polyethylene glycol, alcohol found in many cosmetic products like cremes), don't take Pfizer. I have studied all these methods only in theory on my bachelor studies and they are complicated/draining, albeit understandable and easy to forget. If you insist, I can explain these to you quickly or you can find simple explanations online. What I would like to know are step-by-step details (protocols) and how it looks in practise. I might get plagued with transfection method in the future (not for the purpose of making vaccines), so let's not summon those demons.

Having all of this in mind, I have ticked Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca because I have data and I know every single component of these vaccines (data sheets can be found online), so if I get allergic reaction, at least I will know what I have inside of me. My grandfather had chosen the other two and got the call to get Sinopharm's vaccine, which is the only one available in our municipality. He received the second those on Friday last week and has no side-effects.

Also, if you want Pfizer, beware, they must not shake the content, it is clearly written in the instructions. RNA molecules are packed in nano-lipid vesicles and by shaking, they can be disturbed. ''Stripped'' RNAs cannot enter into your cells. I've heard that technicians shake them like classic vaccines.
I expect the call for the vaccination in a matter of days; I missed the previous one last week because someone at the institute didn't check mail box on time (not to mention they had to beg the authorities to prioritise/approve the vaccination of researchers and scientists and give us appointments). 40000 Pfizer vaccine have arrived in the country and this is the one I am going to ask for first.

I'll be back, hopefully with zero side-effects.

Be responsible, take the shot and share your story.
(・_・)ノ


Thanks for the info. I applied a month ago and chose the exact three you did (and unchecked the Russian and the Chinese ones for pretty much the same reasons you cite). Still waiting for the call, of course. :D
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severzhavnost
Something Stupid

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2937
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:55 pm 
 

I really hope the Sputnik vaccine is good, because it’s being deployed in Gaza right now, while Israel has kept the more widely-trusted Pfizer and Moderna vaccines for themselves. Okay, the Pfizer has weird storage requirements that are probably beyond the technical capacity of the wartorn Gaza Strip, but... if it turns out there’s something wrong with the hastily-developed Russian vac dumped on the Gazans and the Israelis are doing fine with the “good Western ones”, that would be absolutely monstrous.
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megalowho
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Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 636
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:34 pm 
 

Osore wrote:
Be responsible, take the shot and share your story.
(・_・)ノ


I ended up with Moderna. The first shot was fine, and the second one (four weeks between shots) had some side-effects. Nothing too bad, just fatigue for a day or so...I napped it off. :)

I heard this is not uncommon for the second one in particular. Other people reported some chills and aches.

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severzhavnost
Something Stupid

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2937
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:30 pm 
 

British NHS offers healthy man a Covid vaccine, due to records mistakenly listing him as astronomically obese:
https://www.buzz.ie/amp/news/man-offere ... all-418560

:lol: Seems his height had been documented as 6.2cm instead of 6ft 2, so his BMI worked out to an impossible 28,000. Getting on the phone to explain “I’m not obese!” and decline the vaccine, must have been a fun experience.
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Have you ever had Kimchi Waffle?
Kimchi Waffle was made by World Institute of Kimchi in South Korea.
It’s so powerful that your stomachs will damn.
Bulgogi Kimchi Bibimbap waffle burger! Holy shit! litterally shit!

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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1661
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
British NHS offers healthy man a Covid vaccine, due to records mistakenly listing him as astronomically obese:
https://www.buzz.ie/amp/news/man-offere ... all-418560

:lol: Seems his height had been documented as 6.2cm instead of 6ft 2, so his BMI worked out to an impossible 28,000. Getting on the phone to explain “I’m not obese!” and decline the vaccine, must have been a fun experience.


That's brilliant :lol: I love that the error made its way all the way to 'you're invited...' before anyone thought about it.
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Osore
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
Posts: 479
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:51 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
I really hope the Sputnik vaccine is good.
It is, see the update at the end of my post above: https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?p=2959578#p2959578. ;) I have just changed my application to include it.

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Osore
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
Posts: 479
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:03 am 
 

Osore wrote:
I'll be back, hopefully with zero side-effects.
Indeed. I got Sinopharm's vaccine yesterday, which I haven't signed up for - they didn't have any other, and I'm talkin about the Institute of Public Health of Serbia. :ah-ha:
Well, something is better than nothing. I'm also glad I'll take the second dose in three weeks, just before my pollen allergy goes wild.
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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1661
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:57 am 
 

As predicted by many across all of the political spectrum, there are now plans afoot to force 'Vaccine ID' on people - It seems to be Boris's plan, and Tony Blair is of course in favour, so are (with reservations) Trade Unions and the SNP; with conservative MPs and various human rights think-tanks opposing outright.

The plan is for people to carry their status on their phone, and use that to access (or not) various services / locations depending on status. Pretty sure I've seen that movie ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/24/four-key-questions-on-a-covid-certification-scheme-in-england

This was first published (and laughed at) in December, captain hindsight is a cruel master !

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/revealed-the-uk-s-covid-passport-plan
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Osore
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
Posts: 479
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:10 pm 
 

٩(ఠ益ఠ)۶ I have just received an SMS and e-mail informing me to get vaccinated on Saturday in my municipality, based on online application I made. :eek: It means they officially reached a category of healthy 27 year old people. If I knew it would be so quick, I would have waited for Pfizer. I'm tempted to go and get another shot, but I don't want to experiment with such cocktails and steel someone's vaccine.

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Gravetemplar
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2388
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:50 pm 
 

Osore wrote:
٩(ఠ益ఠ)۶ I have just received an SMS and e-mail informing me to get vaccinated on Saturday in my municipality, based on online application I made. :eek: It means they officially reached a category of healthy 27 year old people. If I knew it would be so quick, I would have waited for Pfizer. I'm tempted to go and get another shot, but I don't want to experiment with such cocktails and steel someone's vaccine.

That's crazy. They are still vaccinating +90 people here and it's a complete disaster...

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severzhavnost
Something Stupid

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2937
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:01 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:
As predicted by many across all of the political spectrum, there are now plans afoot to force 'Vaccine ID' on people - It seems to be Boris's plan, and Tony Blair is of course in favour, so are (with reservations) Trade Unions and the SNP; with conservative MPs and various human rights think-tanks opposing outright.

The plan is for people to carry their status on their phone, and use that to access (or not) various services / locations depending on status. Pretty sure I've seen that movie ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/24/four-key-questions-on-a-covid-certification-scheme-in-england

This was first published (and laughed at) in December, captain hindsight is a cruel master !

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/revealed-the-uk-s-covid-passport-plan


Britain has gotten off to quite a racing start on vaccination, so this Covid passport idea might not be entirely disastrous for businesses who are told to enforce it. If this idea comes to Canada, with our bum-stumbling pace of vaccination, there would be absolutely no point in opening anything at all. There would be nowhere near enough allowable customers to make it worthwhile.
In general, I don’t mind the vaxport for travel, but that’s pretty much it. I’ll be goddamn buggered if I’m trapped at home again, just because I have not gotten a vaccine that I would happily get, except that the useless government literally can’t procure a vaccine to save its life.
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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1661
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:57 pm 
 

Yeah, I can see it's not a bad idea, I'm just extremely cynical about the motivation behind it :lol: Has Canada tried to inflict ID cards on people in the recent past ? Various governments here have tried it on - Blair's lot tried to use 9/11 for it, Cameron & May both tried it on using migration as an excuse, and Boris now has COVID.

Did Canada get stuffed because of ' we don't have the production facilities - syndrome ? Britain should really have been hit by that, except Boris in an un-characteristic fit of efficiency threw piles of money at the pharma companies ahead of just about anyone else.
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Invocation
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 88
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:26 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:
Did Canada get stuffed because of ' we don't have the production facilities - syndrome ? Britain should really have been hit by that, except Boris* in an un-characteristic fit of efficiency threw piles of money at the pharma companies ahead of just about anyone else.


*Matt Hancock.

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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1661
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:36 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
Methuen wrote:
Did Canada get stuffed because of ' we don't have the production facilities - syndrome ? Britain should really have been hit by that, except Boris* in an un-characteristic fit of efficiency threw piles of money at the pharma companies ahead of just about anyone else.


*Matt Hancock.

I wish I'd had a tenner on him doing something useful, then :lol:
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severzhavnost
Something Stupid

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2937
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:26 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:
Yeah, I can see it's not a bad idea, I'm just extremely cynical about the motivation behind it :lol: Has Canada tried to inflict ID cards on people in the recent past ? Various governments here have tried it on - Blair's lot tried to use 9/11 for it, Cameron & May both tried it on using migration as an excuse, and Boris now has COVID.

Did Canada get stuffed because of ' we don't have the production facilities - syndrome ? Britain should really have been hit by that, except Boris in an un-characteristic fit of efficiency threw piles of money at the pharma companies ahead of just about anyone else.


That’s the problem exactly. Canada doesn’t manufacture shit all. In defence of PM Trudope, this problem long predicts his regime, so it’s not his fault. But he has been astoundingly slow to address it.
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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1661
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:19 am 
 

The differences in co-operation and decent behaviour are quite stark - see two examples of how COVID-vaccination is being approached - it's shame that a properly global approach can't be organised (via the UN or whatever), and instead we've got private initiatives working alongside state-sponsored disruption activities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/mar/01/coronavirus-live-news-vaccine-acceptance-rising-in-uk-us-and-france-south-africa-eases-restrictions#block-603cc59e8f08be9d080d7956

Quote:
People began to queue early as the Ivory Coast prepared to become the first country to launch a Covid-19 inoculation drive on Monday with doses from the Covax vaccine sharing facility.

Ivory Coast received 504,000 doses of the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine on Friday, and plans to roll it out to medical workers, security forces members and teachers before vaccinating people over 50, those with chronic diseases and travellers.

More than a hundred people were lining up early on Monday at a sports complex in the Treichville neighbourhood of Ivory Coast’s commercial capital Abidjan to receive their first shot, Reuters reported.

Covax, which is led by the GAVI vaccines alliance along with the World Health Organization (WHO) and other partners, is meant to ensure fairer distribution. It aims to deliver nearly 2bn doses to over 90 low- and middle-income countries, covering up to 20% of their populations.

The initiative hopes to level a playing field that has seen wealthier nations vaccinate millions while comparatively few have received shots in poorer parts of the world. Only a handful of African countries have begun inoculating their citizens with vaccines purchased bilaterally or received as donations.

Africa has reported relatively few Covid-19 deaths compared to other continents, but the death toll is rising fast as a second wave of infections overwhelms hospitals.

Ivory Coast’s neighbour Ghana, which last week became the first country to receive a delivery of vaccines from Covax, plans to officially begin its vaccination campaign on Tuesday.


Quote:
Chinese state-backed hackers target Indian vaccine makers, cyberintelligence firm says

A Chinese state-backed hacking group has in recent weeks targeted the IT systems of two Indian vaccine makers whose coronavirus shots are being used in the country’s immunisation campaign, cyber intelligence firm Cyfirma told Reuters.

Rivals China and India have both sold or gifted COVID-19 shots to many countries. India produces more than 60% of all vaccines sold in the world.

Goldman Sachs-backed Cyfirma, based in Singapore and Tokyo, said Chinese hacking group APT10, also known as Stone Panda, had identified gaps and vulnerabilities in the IT infrastructure and supply chain software of Bharat Biotech and the Serum Institute of India (SII), the world’s largest vaccine maker.

“The real motivation here is actually exfiltrating intellectual property and getting competitive advantage over Indian pharmaceutical companies,” said Cyfirma Chief Executive Kumar Ritesh, formerly a top cyber official with British foreign intelligence agency MI6.

He said APT10 was actively targeting SII, which is making the AstraZeneca vaccine for many countries and will soon start bulk-manufacturing Novavax shots.

“In the case of Serum Institute, they have found a number of their public servers running weak web servers, these are vulnerable web servers,” Ritesh said, referring to the hackers. “They have spoken about weak web application, they are also talking about weak content-management system. It’s quite alarming.”
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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 580
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:08 pm 
 

So I came across this video where someone not only goes in stores not wearing a mask, but purposely covers his mouth with his bare hands and touching the food, possibly contaminating the food with COVID-19.



And Americans wonder why the outside world doesn't take them seriously anymore.
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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1793
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:06 am 
 

Malbordus wrote:
The left definitely have plenty of loony to go round also, even regarding vaccines. There's a large overlap between left and "alternative" medicine, mistrust of big pharma. As an example my dad is a homeopath and won't vaccinate and sure enough Covid recently raged through the extended family although ultimately no harm done. I've had all the arguments, it's a waste of effort and one day they'll get something serious then drop their principle like a sack of shit.

See also the link between yoga and anti-vax e.g.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/yoga-disinformation-qanon-conspiracy-wellness


I accidently found an old article I had saved (maybe 10 years old) a few days ago where a part of it touched on this. How anti-vaccine stances were more common in the political left wing. And now it is definately the right wing that makes the most noise about such stances. But then again these things tend to shift. 20-30 years ago the left was anti-EU and now they are generally pro-EU while the weak exit voices almost always comes from the right. Same thing with enviromentalism though we have to increase the time-span between the measuring points considerably.

Edit: the article was mosre recent than I though (21 November 2018) and only had a small mention of the anti-vaccine stances. https://universitetslararen.se/2018/11/21/asa-wikforss-alternativa-fakta-da-fick-det-vara-nog/
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CoconutBackwards
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:18 pm 
 

Slater922 wrote:
So I came across this video where someone not only goes in stores not wearing a mask, but purposely covers his mouth with his bare hands and touching the food, possibly contaminating the food with COVID-19.



And Americans wonder why the outside world doesn't take them seriously anymore.


I’m American and I’ve definitely never wondered that.
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Osore
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:43 pm 
 

Stupidity all around!
A lot of people without masks, everyone kisses the same picture 00:07-00:23.
00:00-01:50 :puke:

Spoiler: show
I know how difficult it is to oppress from the authoritarian figures and dogmas. When I was perhaps around 6 years old and questioned the existence of god, my mother strictly told me not to do this. I was the first generation that had orthodox catechesis as an elective course from the first grade (age 7), and everyone in my school (in the rural settlement with ~17000 inhabitants) took that as a choice. I remember that one girl had chosen another course, and they persuaded her to change it, so that entire class can listen the same. Our teachers were priests that worked in a church. One of them had stolen a baby from the hospital where she was born (he's not the only one, this affair is massive). Apart from this idiot, others were actually extremely relaxed and we didn't have to learn anything and were allowed to ask whatever. We were never scared with hell and were told that god forgives and loves us. What created dissonance in me was the clash between biology (evolution) and religion, so I developed my own eclectic theory combining the existence of omnipresent god with scientific facts. In secondary school I had to continue with these religious classes (we were not allowed to change it), but I had even more luck because it wasn't indoctrinating thanks to our female teacher who was not a priestess (misogynist orthodox church doesn't allow females to be priests), and we talked about socially relevant stuff, including gay pride, abortion etc. By the time I finished school, I became an atheist and I'm glad I made the right choice - who knows where I would have been if I went to some low-grade school.
Believing in god does depend on intelligence, but not in young children due to imagination and other factors. I think my intelligence was high enough to stand up against it before I was told otherwise. If you are religious adult, it still does not mean your intelligence is lower than average, it just means you might never get to the stage when you start to question your beliefs. Belief in after life can make you cope easier with death-anxiety. I was there, I know that it's easier not to accept that you'll be nothing but dust, just don't lick stuff and be responsible.
I am deeply embarrassed by my religious past, and I also remember how brainwashed I was to think atheists are bad and lost. :roll:

Sadly, I predict to see the Western world being challenged even strongly by creationism and clericalism coming from flawed educational systems, organised idiots from social networks, stupid politicians, churches and mosques. How can a state with presidents who put their hands on a bible (during inauguration) ever be truly secular?

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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 580
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:37 pm 
 

Osore wrote:
Stupidity all around!
A lot of people without masks, everyone kisses the same picture 00:07-00:23.
00:00-01:50 :puke:

Spoiler: show
I know how difficult it is to oppress from the authoritarian figures and dogmas. When I was perhaps around 6 years old and questioned the existence of god, my mother strictly told me not to do this. I was the first generation that had orthodox catechesis as an elective course from the first grade (age 7), and everyone in my school (in the rural settlement with ~17000 inhabitants) took that as a choice. I remember that one girl had chosen another course, and they persuaded her to change it, so that entire class can listen the same. Our teachers were priests that worked in a church. One of them had stolen a baby from the hospital where she was born (he's not the only one, this affair is massive). Apart from this idiot, others were actually extremely relaxed and we didn't have to learn anything and were allowed to ask whatever. We were never scared with hell and were told that god forgives and loves us. What created dissonance in me was the clash between biology (evolution) and religion, so I developed my own eclectic theory combining the existence of omnipresent god with scientific facts. In secondary school I had to continue with these religious classes (we were not allowed to change it), but I had even more luck because it wasn't indoctrinating thanks to our female teacher who was not a priestess (misogynist orthodox church doesn't allow females to be priests), and we talked about socially relevant stuff, including gay pride, abortion etc. By the time I finished school, I became an atheist and I'm glad I made the right choice - who knows where I would have been if I went to some low-grade school.
Believing in god does depend on intelligence, but not in young children due to imagination and other factors. I think my intelligence was high enough to stand up against it before I was told otherwise. If you are religious adult, it still does not mean your intelligence is lower than average, it just means you might never get to the stage when you start to question your beliefs. Belief in after life can make you cope easier with death-anxiety. I was there, I know that it's easier not to accept that you'll be nothing but dust, just don't lick stuff and be responsible.
I am deeply embarrassed by my religious past, and I also remember how brainwashed I was to think atheists are bad and lost. :roll:

Sadly, I predict to see the Western world being challenged even strongly by creationism and clericalism coming from flawed educational systems, organised idiots from social networks, stupid politicians, churches and mosques. How can a state with presidents who put their hands on a bible (during inauguration) ever be truly secular?

Do these people think that the pandemic just magically went away the second 2021 rolled around? You'd think people would get the "wear a mask" message at this point, but I guess you can't please everyone/
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Osore
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
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Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:23 pm 
 

Everyone should realise that masks are here to stay forever. Coronavirus will continue to circulate in population around the globe just like influenza viruses and we will have to get vaccinated every year and wear masks in order to protect ourselves, I'm almost 100% sure. What concerns me are people who caught the virus for the second time and ended up with more serious symptoms. Virus evolves and adopts to its hosts much much faster than we can respond. Now with the vaccines it hits the wall and mutants' fitness increases dramatically, which is why it is only a matter of time when these vaccines will have to be updated in order to be effective. I wasn't thinking about dying from the viral infection, but COVID makes me imagine myself on a death bed sooner than I thought. I'm 27, but my pollen allergy and the fact that I'm skinny with zero physical activity lean more towards pessimistic scenarios. Also, I'm sick of these teenagers and people around my age who attend illegal parties thinking they are safe, walk unprotected on crowded streets, sit in full coffee shops... There are the ones who threw their masks off after second or first dose of vaccine and got infected. Majority got Sinopharm's vaccine, which takes up to 40 days after the second dose to build up antibodies against the virus. We still don't know much about it because the data is missing, but it was proven to be only 70% effective in phase 2, which means 30 out of 100 people won't be protected - which is why masks should stay on our heads. I'm really pissed off, can someone give me a megaphone? ((╬◣﹏◢)) XD

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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:51 pm 
 

Osore, good lord man - I can’t give you a megaphone, but I can try to give you some reassurance :D First, let’s look at the Astra Zeneca vaccine as an example, which is reported as 65% effective. This does not mean that it’s useless 35% of the time! It basically means that in all cases, the vaccine reduces the severity of illness by 65%. To date nobody who’s taken it has even been hospitalized with Covid, never mind died of it; in essence the rest of those who’ve later been exposed have wound up with viral loads too low to transmit it or even notice they were sick themselves. (True I’m not sure that the Sinopharm vaccine you signed up for used the same measures of efficiency for their 70% claim, but it is probable.)
Second, being thin and lazy is not a known risk factor for Covid. (Happy for me too!)
And third, there are studies showing that respiratory allergies such as your pollen problem, contribute to lower risk, because they prey on a lower prevalence of a gene called ACE2 which Covid uses to replicate itself.
tl,dr: you’ll be fine :)
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Osore
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
Posts: 479
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:40 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Osore, good lord man - I can’t give you a megaphone, but I can try to give you some reassurance :D First, let’s look at the Astra Zeneca vaccine as an example, which is reported as 65% effective. This does not mean that it’s useless 35% of the time! It basically means that in all cases, the vaccine reduces the severity of illness by 65%. To date nobody who’s taken it has even been hospitalized with Covid, never mind died of it; in essence the rest of those who’ve later been exposed have wound up with viral loads too low to transmit it or even notice they were sick themselves. (True I’m not sure that the Sinopharm vaccine you signed up for used the same measures of efficiency for their 70% claim, but it is probable.)
I know that, I became worried with news about people getting hospitalised in my country after the second dose (they probably didn't wait enough for immunity to fully respond). They measured neutralising antibodies for all vaccines, but for Sinopharm's there is no data about T cell response and there is just an estimation that vaccinated people are 100% safe from developing severe clinical form of disease. My father got AstraZeneca, so good for him, while I wonder about this Chinese liquid in my blood.

severzhavnost wrote:
And third, there are studies showing that respiratory allergies such as your pollen problem, contribute to lower risk, because they prey on a lower prevalence of a gene called ACE2 which Covid uses to replicate itself.
tl,dr: you’ll be fine :)
Found the article, I feel much better now, thanks for saving me. :-D Rhinoviruses always turn my nose into a fountain. Coronavirus belongs to entirely different family and targets lungs first, which concerns me when I take into account horrible air quality... I've heard about physically active healthy people being hospitalised, and I can see the virus sucking all my energy. On the other hand, thinking about obese people gives me some hope for us, as the former tend to develop more severe forms.
The advantage of Sinopharm's vaccine might be that the entire viral capsid gets presented to our immune system, whereas other 4 vaccines I wrote about on this page lead to expression of spike protein only. Time will show - will keep an eye on Israel for Pfizer.

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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:43 pm 
 

So, I STRONGLY believe masks work, but one of my anti-mask friends posted this study online while stating that it's proof that masks don't work.

Does anyone else see any flaws in this study?

What would you say to someone who sees this as proof that they don't?

Because while I've read and seen enough to believe masks do work, I can't immediately off hand see any inherent flaws in this one, though I think there must be with all we know by this point:

https://techstartups.com/2021/03/08/new ... jCROCfphPw

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megalowho
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Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:33 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:46 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
So, I STRONGLY believe masks work, but one of my anti-mask friends posted this study online while stating that it's proof that masks don't work.


I think the study has played little if any role in your friend's decision, except as after-the-fact rationalization, and an "own-the-libs" social media grandstanding sort of thing.

The claim is that the CDC has found that mask mandates have "only" lowered COVID-19 cases and deaths by 1.32%. The author of the piece wants to create the impression that this is a small number, in this context. Is it? The CDC also recommends mask-wearing, right? So, wouldn't it be odd if the CDC failed to recognize the "obvious implications" of its own study? Not impossible, but eyebrow-raising, and you'd want to reason about it carefully to be sure. I happen to believe it most likely that the CDC is largely composed of individuals who are better informed than me and know better than I do about how to reason carefully with respect to these issues. ("I'm happy to defer to the experts" doesn't feature as prominently in the vocabulary of far-right, anti-government conspiracy mongers in general, IMO.)

A bit of casual Googling on my part - and maybe I'm off on this - suggests it's both (1) true that mask mandates have reduced cases by a percentage point or two, and (2) true that mask mandates have averted some 200,000 cases nationwide. Again, unless the CDC is basically malevolent and/or considerably less competent to evaluate the science than the layperson, I think this seems like a significant enough figure to justify the (perhaps somewhat counterintuitive) conclusion that 1.32% is not an insignificantly small figure here.

Similarly, gun control, terrorism, police violence, etc. are serious issues, even though statistically any given individual is about as likely to be killed in (e.g.) a school shooting or terrorist attack etc. as by, I dunno, a lightning storm or shark attack. (And the statistical likelihood raises for certain more vulnerable demographics, albeit again by "small" numbers.)

Quote:
What would you say to someone who sees this as proof that they don't?


Eh, probably nothing. Unlikely to be worth the effort, unfortunately.

Though if I wanted to gain a deeper appreciation of the (deceptive) use of "simple math" to score points in political argument, I might start with such books as this -

How to Lie with Statistics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Li ... Statistics
Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics: The Manipulation of Public Opinion in America

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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 801
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:05 pm 
 

megalowho wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
So, I STRONGLY believe masks work, but one of my anti-mask friends posted this study online while stating that it's proof that masks don't work.


I think the study has played little if any role in your friend's decision, except as after-the-fact rationalization, and an "own-the-libs" social media grandstanding sort of thing.

The claim is that the CDC has found that mask mandates have "only" lowered COVID-19 cases and deaths by 1.32%. The author of the piece wants to create the impression that this is a small number, in this context. Is it? The CDC also recommends mask-wearing, right? So, wouldn't it be odd if the CDC failed to recognize the "obvious implications" of its own study? Not impossible, but eyebrow-raising, and you'd want to reason about it carefully to be sure. I happen to believe it most likely that the CDC is largely composed of individuals who are better informed than me and know better than I do about how to reason carefully with respect to these issues. ("I'm happy to defer to the experts" doesn't feature as prominently in the vocabulary of far-right, anti-government conspiracy mongers in general, IMO.)

A bit of casual Googling on my part - and maybe I'm off on this - suggests it's both (1) true that mask mandates have reduced cases by a percentage point or two, and (2) true that mask mandates have averted some 200,000 cases nationwide. Again, unless the CDC is basically malevolent and/or considerably less competent to evaluate the science than the layperson, I think this seems like a significant enough figure to justify the (perhaps somewhat counterintuitive) conclusion that 1.32% is not an insignificantly small figure here.

Similarly, gun control, terrorism, police violence, etc. are serious issues, even though statistically any given individual is about as likely to be killed in (e.g.) a school shooting or terrorist attack etc. as by, I dunno, a lightning storm or shark attack. (And the statistical likelihood raises for certain more vulnerable demographics, albeit again by "small" numbers.)

Quote:
What would you say to someone who sees this as proof that they don't?


Eh, probably nothing. Unlikely to be worth the effort, unfortunately.

Though if I wanted to gain a deeper appreciation of the (deceptive) use of "simple math" to score points in political argument, I might start with such books as this -

How to Lie with Statistics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Li ... Statistics
Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics: The Manipulation of Public Opinion in America



Thanks, I think I agree with all that.

Also though, after posting I realized what I think the simplest and biggest takeaway and response is, because my friend posted this with the comment that "See, mask mandates don't work", but the IMPLICATION seems to be "see, masks don't work" which is an ENTIRELY different statement altogether.

We KNOW masks work at this point. There have been so many studies to prove it, and the countries who really FOLLOWED the mask mandates like Japan and Australia have illustrated this.

It's the simple fact that most people probably didn't obey the mask mandates that made them ineffective LOL.

I mean, we might as well say that seatbelt laws don't prevent deaths when people still refuse to wear seatbelts right?

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Osore
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
Posts: 479
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:08 pm 
 

Situation is too complicated to be reduced to numbers, expected to be relevant. There is a big review article (https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/118/4/e2014564118.full.pdf) published before the infamous Danish study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7707213/pdf/aim-olf-M206817.pdf). The review presents numerous reasons why masks are effective, while Danish study reports:
Quote:
Results:
A total of 3030 participants were randomly assigned to the recommendation to wear masks, and 2994 were assigned to control; 4862 completed the study. Infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%). The between-group difference was −0.3 percentage point (95% CI, −1.2 to 0.4 percentage point; P = 0.38) (odds ratio, 0.82 [CI, 0.54 to 1.23]; P = 0.33). Multiple imputation accounting for loss to follow-up yielded similar results. Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection.

and also:
Quote:
Limitation:
Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others.


We can explain the small difference (or to be precise, the lack of statistically significant difference) by taking into account limitations they stated, the fact that children are massive transmitters of the virus and that people in one group were using masks outside of home, so you know who let the devil in. Also, wearing only a mask, but touching contaminated surfaces and then your nose may transmit viral particles if, for example, someone sneezed or coughed and left droplets on the spot. Transmission from surfaces still has a low chance, but masks reduce particle dispersion; by wearing them, we inhale small (subliminal) amounts of viral particles that
a) cannot cause a disease and be detected by PCR, as the few cells in mucosa infected by the virus get destroyed by leukocytes, or
b) can cause a disease, but with minor symptoms.

This study might be more relevant if done properly: https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/07/revelers-in-amsterdam-hit-dancefloor-for-club-night-experiment.

If I made a mistake, feel free to correct me.

Edit: To me, the mentioned American study (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7010e3-H.pdf) looks even weaker than Danish because they rely on ''mask mandates'', which is less reliant factor than a group of people that gave a word to wear a mask for the purpose of an experiment.

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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:11 am 
 

Some government guidance here that has seemingly flown under the radar; I picked this up when asked the question by my wife, and when our GP was asked the question, they couldn't give an answer beyond 'well, we don't know - no-one tests on pregnant women'. I suppose we'll find out in a few months if there are any interesting side effects - hopefully not ! (I'm also assuming, that while they can't for liability reasons give iron-clad assurances, that the pharma giants making this stuff can do at least artificial impact modelling to make an educated guess.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-women-of-childbearing-age-currently-pregnant-planning-a-pregnancy-or-breastfeeding/covid-19-vaccination-a-guide-for-women-of-childbearing-age-pregnant-planning-a-pregnancy-or-breastfeeding

Quote:
The vaccines have not yet been tested in pregnancy, so until more information is available, those who are pregnant should not routinely have this vaccine. Non-clinical evidence is required before any clinical studies in pregnancy can start, and before that, it is usual to not recommend routine vaccination during pregnancy... ...The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) has recognised that the potential benefits of vaccination are particularly important for some pregnant women. This includes those who are at very high risk of catching the infection or those with clinical conditions that put them at high risk of suffering serious complications from COVID-19.

In these circumstances, you should discuss vaccination with your doctor or nurse, and you may feel that it is better to go ahead and receive the protection from the vaccine.
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Subrick
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 9693
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:31 pm 
 

I just remembered that today marks exactly one year since my last day of work. I closed up, went home, and started feeling symptomatic the next day. The day after that, I called out due to being full on ill with Covid. My mall was closed by the state two days later, and I’ve been at home ever since. It’s my longest stretch of not being employed in six years, and it’s done absolute wonders for my physical and mental health. It should not have lasted this long though, but we live in a stupid country populated by stupid people, so of course this was gonna end up with over half a million dead and paltry government aid compared to every other industrialized nation in the world. It was always gonna be like this, because that’s what happens when you live in the US.
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Curious_dead
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 552
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:06 pm 
 

And again, fucking morons all over the world, including Montreal, so close, protested against masks, lockdowns, and other health measures. I can't fucking stand these idiots. People dancing together without masks, SMH, they make things worse. Yeah yeah, you have the right to take risks for your health, but you can't make those choices for those around you and that's what these measures are about. I'm not sure which group is more prevalent among them, selfish assholes or brainwashed morons, but either way, fuck them.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:55 pm 
 

I just got my first vaccine shot today. Feeling good about it. I believe things will look up for us all eventually.
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