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Sekrys
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Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:00 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:38 pm 
 

Saxon - Destiny

I realize that a majority of Saxon fans don't like this record, and that the vast majority of those on Metallum likely would also despise Destiny (48% average of 5 reviews: three ~20% reviews; two positive but one of them is my own). Much of the record is horribly cheesy, and it is indeed a betrayal of the band's heavy metal sound of the early days. However, I really don't think Destiny is all that bad; I guess I like crappy glam rock. To be honest I like Destiny more than what I have heard off of Rock the Nations and some of the closer albums that succeed it. I do understand a good amount the hate for the record and I definitely won't tell people that they aren't Saxon fans for not liking the album (obviously they are), but I do think it is much better than other sellout attempts by some of their contemporaries (like Grave Digger's Stronger Than Ever, for instance). I'm somewhat happy that Saxon sold out during the 80's for glam and not in the 90's for groove.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:10 am 
 

A few that others have touched on:

Judas Priest: Ram it Down. I don't know if it is so much hated as overlooked. It has the unfortunate position of being the album after the album that made everyone stop caring, and before the album that brought them roaring back. Blood Red Skies is a fucking masterpiece, and if you haven't done so, I recommend the the 12 minute version that is floating around YouTube.

Iron Maiden: X Factor. As others have said, this is a far better record than it is rated. Sign of the Cross is a fucking excellent song. It's not perfect, and songs like Fortunes of War are too long and drag. Blaze is a solid vocalist here, and the biggest crime he commited was following in the footsteps of a vocalist that couldn't be replaced. This album could have used one or two of the shorter tracks that didn't make the record, such as I Live My Way or Justice of the Peace.

Sekrys wrote:
Saxon - Destiny

I realize that a majority of Saxon fans don't like this record, and that the vast majority of those on Metallum likely would also despise Destiny (48% average of 5 reviews: three ~20% reviews; two positive but one of them is my own). Much of the record is horribly cheesy, and it is indeed a betrayal of the band's heavy metal sound of the early days. However, I really don't think Destiny is all that bad; I guess I like crappy glam rock. To be honest I like Destiny more than what I have heard off of Rock the Nations and some of the closer albums that succeed it. I do understand a good amount the hate for the record and I definitely won't tell people that they aren't Saxon fans for not liking the album (obviously they are), but I do think it is much better than other sellout attempts by some of their contemporaries (like Grave Digger's Stronger Than Ever, for instance). I'm somewhat happy that Saxon sold out during the 80's for glam and not in the 90's for groove.


Nah man, this just sucks.
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Zerberus
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:26 am 
 

MetalManiaCometh wrote:
Megadeth’s Risk and Super Collider. Listen.... Risk isn’t that good of an album but it’s not as bad some make it out to be and has a few decent tracks such as Crush’em, Breadline, and Insomnia; it’s just an album that tries to experiment and well...doesn’t do it that well. Same can be said with Super Collider as it offers some strong tracks like the opener Kingmaker or The Blackest Crow; from my viewpoint, I found this album to be a much more well rounded effort compared to Risk ( still don’t think SC is good though).



I'm gonna agree with you on Risk. If not for Super Collider (which I can't really get into but for a few songs), it'd be the lowest rated Megadeth album by 12% up to The World Needs a Hero (50% vs 62% here on MA).

Risk could've been a pretty decent album if it wasn't so long. Dave really needed to edit a bit here and cut those 51 minutes down to maybe 35 minutes, cutting out 3-4 of the most boring tracks. Leading with Insomnia, Prince of Darkness, Crush 'Em and Breadline, the entire first half of the album is pretty solid and pretty much in tune with the direction Megadeth would be expected to take coming off of Cryptic Writings.

I get that Dave was more or less taking Megadeth into the opposite direction of what their old fans wanted, probably in a bid to stay relevant or find new fans in a broader audience. He was definitely experimenting with the formula, and I kind of like the result. Those first four songs (I don't count Enter the Arena as its own thing) were probably among my most listened to Megadeth tracks for a good long while some ten years ago. Ironically it wouldn't be until Dave's solo album (The System Has Failed, which was released as a Megadeth album after all) that the band would be sort of returning to something more recognisable as the Megadeth we knew.
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lordcatfish
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:41 am 
 

I think Risk and Super Collider are both decent albums. In particular, I think the three song run of "I'll Be There", "Wanderlust" and "Ecstasy" on the former is brilliant.
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Wahn_nhaW
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Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:51 am 
 

I think Risk is a bad album overall, but I'd still pick it over anything they released after it. However misguided the inspiration for that album was, there was at least some inspiration. Everything after it is incredibly phoned in, even something like Endgame, which I remember people liking a lot when it came out.

I was a die-hard when The World Needs a Hero came out, but that album ended it for me. What an embarrassing album. People were happy that it was not Risk 2, but I actually thought it was worse than Risk. The System was serviceable, it got my hopes up, but at some point I realized they were on autopilot and they were always going to be. I checked out every subsequent album just for old times' sake, but nothing stuck.
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Hemwick
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:51 am 
 

I couldn't agree more with Lamb of gods' NAG, that and Burn The Priest album is all I can enjoy by them. The production on NAG was excellent as well. Steve Austin did a great job on it (can't say that for other bands he works with). Plus i really enjoyed Randy's vocals on NAG, he had something differnt going but familiar, almost like Dave Brockie's at times.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:33 am 
 

I'm still not sure why people use MA ratings for claiming an album is well liked or not. You all realize they are completely arbitrary, don't you? Yeah, four people didn't like that album, how is four people not liking something relevant? Just saying this because I've seen them used a few times in this thread and it makes no sense.

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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:41 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
I'm still not sure why people use MA ratings for claiming an album is well liked or not. You all realize they are completely arbitrary, don't you? Yeah, four people didn't like that album, how is four people not liking something relevant? Just saying this because I've seen them used a few times in this thread and it makes no sense.

That's true. Hence, why I go for albums that were reviewed by at least 10 people or more whenever I call an album overrated/overhated. Just because two people give an album a 0% doesn't mean everyone else thinks that way to the album.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:09 pm 
 

It's not on the Archives anymore but I've always been fond of 2wo's Voyeurs. While the album was lambasted for Halford joining the industrial trend and declaring that metal was dead at the time, it was a fairly logical progression from his fight. He may not use the full extent of his range but I really get into the mood of his performance. That combination of frustration, apathy, and sadness is one that resonates and there is some real catharsis on tracks like I Am A Pig, Stutter Kiss, and Bed of Rust. I think it's more forgotten than outright hated these days, but I definitely remember it having a lot of rough coverage.
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Hemwick
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:06 pm 
 

Neurosis Honor Found In Decay

So much hate even from life long fans but I never got the hate.
The album is a slow burn and repetitive, but that's why I love it the band members lost loved ones before and during the writing process and channel the emotions into the song writing. The stages of grief appear throughout this work of art. All is found in time is a masterpiece that build up in the beginning up until that hammer crushes you back down. That moment is so worth it. I easily put this in my top three by them.

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EldritchSun
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Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:51 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:32 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
I'm still not sure why people use MA ratings for claiming an album is well liked or not. You all realize they are completely arbitrary, don't you? Yeah, four people didn't like that album, how is four people not liking something relevant? Just saying this because I've seen them used a few times in this thread and it makes no sense.

Not counting the troll reviews from guys who only gave/give 0%-5% ratings. Also, the zealots who give 100% to every shit their favorite artist take distort the overall average rate. The MA rating can only be midly useful when there are enough reviews to flatten the most extreme ratings.

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FirebathDan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:34 pm 
 

EldritchSun wrote:

Illud could have been a really solid release just with a mere different track order. If they released the album with a pure death metal side and the more experimental in the other, people might have understood it better or at least able to appreciate the good stuff on it. I'll go and say that the "pure" death metal songs are pretty good.

With a slightly different production choices (like a bit more reverb on vocals and the snare, riffs slightly higher in the mix, kicks with less boost on 5k and a bit more mid range on them (like Death's TSOP) those tracks would have SLAYED.

Also, if Trey wrote solos like the Domination ones, the tracks might also have been more impactful. Anyway: If Morbid Angel decided that Illud was a solid 5 track EP instead, it could have been easily ranked within the 70-80% rate range:

1) Blades for Baal: FUCKING GREAT SONG. It just slays hard from start to finish. It's packed with good riffs and it's brutal as hell.

2) Nevermore: Solid song that mixes a slight Domination style with the few decent Heretic songwriting linings. The verse riff is great and the vocal patters are spot on. I also like the brooding tremolo riff in the slow section past 2 minutes. Feels pretty menacing.

3) Existo Vulgore: This one is not bad per se, but the verse riff is sorta underwhelming. Still, the riff in the breakdown around 2:00... FUCKING NASTY RIFF. Dawn of the Angry-like nasty.

4) 10 More Dead: It's a different song and a welcome change. It starts all groovy with good riffing but when it picks up... Morbid Angel returned to fucking GATEWAYS right there. Around 2:40 comes a fucking CRUSHING riff that could have been easily written by Erik Rutan.

5) Beauty Meets Beast: Huge GATEWAYS vibe. Great track overall. It mixes some of the later Domination tracks sort of pace with the obvious Gateways mindset.

These tracks absolutely SLAY both Heretic and Kingdoms.


I’m mostly with you on this. I also go to bat for “Too Extreme”, “Profundis-Mea Culpa”, and “Destructos/Attack”. None of those are great songs per se, but they are very interesting conceptual ideas, particularly the former two blending death metal with hardcore techno. It took huge balls to even try this. The only throwaway tracks are “I Am Morbid” and “Radikult”, huge missteps there. Illud is a way more memorable album as a whole compared to Kingdoms.

Also, The Unspoken King is nowhere near as bad as it’s made out to be, it’s infinitely superior to the tuneless, formless, utter nonsense album Once Was Not. That album is worthy of scorn for having utterly structureless songs, a drum centric production, completely unmemorable riffs, and one of the most phoned in vocal performance I’ve ever heard. At least TUK has some interesting ideas and memorable songs.

That is to say, nether album is close to being the best work by either band. That should be obvious. But I always think some degree of credit is due when bands don’t play it safe. Which playing it safe is arguably the route both bands took after these albums, with very different results (I like what Cryptopsy has done, don’t care at all for Kingdoms).
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:44 pm 
 

Hemwick wrote:
Neurosis Honor Found In Decay

So much hate even from life long fans but I never got the hate.
The album is a slow burn and repetitive, but that's why I love it the band members lost loved ones before and during the writing process and channel the emotions into the song writing. The stages of grief appear throughout this work of art. All is found in time is a masterpiece that build up in the beginning up until that hammer crushes you back down. That moment is so worth it. I easily put this in my top three by them.

Nah, that album was really bad. Neurosis was my favourite band time at the time and I hated it. I clearly remember people at shows going to the bathroom or the bar when they played songs from it. Meanwhile, people were moshing to songs from Given to the Rising. It's their St. Anger.

The problem was not the album being too slow or repetitive (all their albums are to a degree). I mean, it was part of the problem but still not the whole picture. For me it's the awful keyboards (honestly, the whole album could have worked with better keyboards), the dumbed down and plastic sounding production that makes the songs fall flat, all songs are way too long, they use major keys in a few songs and it doesn't work at all, most of the songs are just the same two/three mediocre ideas repeated ad nauseam, etc. It's their worst album and their only misstep so far. I still think something decent could have come out of it with a different production, shorter songs and better keyboards but this is a really bad album that gets a pass because it's Neurosis.

Honor Found in Decay was so bad their next album was the complete opposite: shorter songs with more ideas, organic and rich sound full of keyboard textures, keyboards being a lot more predominant and better, better riffs, much shorter album, etc.

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Hemwick
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:11 pm 
 

I can see your points and understand what you are saying and agree with Fires Within fires. That album just comes at you out of the gate. They are band that no matter what I'll listen and respect what they do. Like all of us they aren't perfect. But that albums holds a place in my heart.

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HR90
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:33 am 
 

I have three albums.

Peace Sells is my favorite Megadeth album, but Risk was the first album I heard, and I liked.

I'm not a fan of Glam, but I also like the infamous Cold Lake album. Sure, without the Frost logo, it would be a different story, but for me is a good record.

X-Factor is a great album. I always had some Glen Danzig/Lee Ving vibes with Blaze vocals. I love it musically and lyrically.

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Aural_Disturbances
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:20 pm 
 

Emperor's Prometheus. Yes, it's a departure from their typical sound, and I can appreciate why someone would prefer Nightside, but it's an excellent album that broke some serious ground, and sadly nobody followed in their footsteps.

The black metal scene is full of a bunch of mouth breathers who hate innovation. It's sad.

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Kalaratri
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:15 am 
 

I guess I can understand it if you're doing a comparison to the albums that immediately preceded it, but I think We Are The Void gets a bit unfairly maligned as far as Dark Tranquillity's discography is concerned. Songs like Iridium and In My Absence are some of my favourites of theirs. It's not their best album by any stretch, but it's not their worst either (personally I think Construct is the weakest album they've released.)

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Kalaratri
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:55 pm 
 

Since Cold Lake was mentioned earlier, I'll throw in Discharge - Grave New World. It may be because I just read a Decibel Magazine feature on it, but I actually don't think it's as bad as it's often made out to be. I'm not saying it's a masterpiece by any means, but I find something oddly interesting about the idea of a bunch of punks trying to make a glam metal album. It doesn't really sound that much like the glam stuff that was popular at the time, and even though it's mostly a complete 180 from what they were previously doing, there are still elements of the D-Beat sound present if you listen closely.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:29 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
ObservationSlave wrote:
A few Metallica mentions so far, but I've always been dumbfounded by the level of hate Death Magnetic gets. I've never minded the production on it, but setting that aside for a second, there isn't a single bad song on the album. From a songwriting perspective, it's probably closest to Master of Puppets and could have followed either that album or AJFA. And it is much more coherent than something like Hardwired, which in my opinion is 80 minutes of an identity crisis. I'd have a really tough time taking Death Magnetic out of my top 5 Metallica albums.


I mostly agree with you on Death Magnetic, although I do think that the production is overly saturated for no good reason. Rick Rubin really isn't a good metal producer, and he's one of the worst offenders in the loudness war. I do agree that most of the songs are pretty good on there are good though, although they are a little drawn out. I wouldn't say it's an hated album though. People didn't give it as much shit as St. Anger or Lulu, and the reviews on MA are mixed. I think most of the negative criticism comes from the fact that this was kind of marketed as a return to forms and was a half-failure in that regard as it didn't get as much praise as the material from their early days, but also didn't take much risks.

As for Hardwired, I think it's a decent album and that it would have been better if they trimmed the fat, removed the fillers and made it a regular LP instead of a double.

I'm listening to the Death Magnetic 2016 - Blackened Recordings / WEB edition and they actually fixed the sound. It's an official release and it sounds fine in case any of you is interested. I've also never understood the hate for Death Magnetic. Sure, it's not the best Metallica album but it's pretty decent. Maybe a bit too long (I would have made it only 8 songs long) but it's a decent 65/100. Maybe I'm biased because I've always though Metallica were a song band as opposed to being an album band so I don't think any of their albums as a whole is brilliant.

St. Anger could have been great if it sounded a bit better (just better drums, I'm not really asking for much more) and the songs had better structures and less in necessary repetitions. Some of the songs are pretty cool. I don't hate the album though and The Unnamed Feeling is incredible.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:38 pm 
 

Zerberus wrote:
I'm gonna agree with you on Risk. If not for Super Collider (which I can't really get into but for a few songs), it'd be the lowest rated Megadeth album by 12% up to The World Needs a Hero (50% vs 62% here on MA).

Risk could've been a pretty decent album if it wasn't so long. Dave really needed to edit a bit here and cut those 51 minutes down to maybe 35 minutes, cutting out 3-4 of the most boring tracks. Leading with Insomnia, Prince of Darkness, Crush 'Em and Breadline, the entire first half of the album is pretty solid and pretty much in tune with the direction Megadeth would be expected to take coming off of Cryptic Writings.


Risk is not a good album though. It has a few decent songs. A few good moments, but it's a week album, and like you mentionned, it's way too long. Plus, it's a Megadeth album, so of course it will be compared to other releases. And when you have albums like Peace Sells and Rust in Peace, fans aren't going to like an album like Risk.

I personnally remember listening to it and getting into some of the tracks. Insomnia and The Doctor is Calling are still pretty decent, but I personnally dislike both Prince of Darkness and Crush 'Em. The choruses in both songs are pretty weak, and the riffing is uninspired, IMHO.

I'm not saying it deserves to be hated, but 50% is pretty much the score I'd give that album. Not complete garbage, but still extremely forgettable. I'd only recommand it to die hard Megadeth fans.

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Kalaratri
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:09 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
ObservationSlave wrote:
A few Metallica mentions so far, but I've always been dumbfounded by the level of hate Death Magnetic gets. I've never minded the production on it, but setting that aside for a second, there isn't a single bad song on the album. From a songwriting perspective, it's probably closest to Master of Puppets and could have followed either that album or AJFA. And it is much more coherent than something like Hardwired, which in my opinion is 80 minutes of an identity crisis. I'd have a really tough time taking Death Magnetic out of my top 5 Metallica albums.


I mostly agree with you on Death Magnetic, although I do think that the production is overly saturated for no good reason. Rick Rubin really isn't a good metal producer, and he's one of the worst offenders in the loudness war. I do agree that most of the songs are pretty good on there are good though, although they are a little drawn out. I wouldn't say it's an hated album though. People didn't give it as much shit as St. Anger or Lulu, and the reviews on MA are mixed. I think most of the negative criticism comes from the fact that this was kind of marketed as a return to forms and was a half-failure in that regard as it didn't get as much praise as the material from their early days, but also didn't take much risks.

As for Hardwired, I think it's a decent album and that it would have been better if they trimmed the fat, removed the fillers and made it a regular LP instead of a double.

I'm listening to the Death Magnetic 2016 - Blackened Recordings / WEB edition and they actually fixed the sound. It's an official release and it sounds fine in case any of you is interested. I've also never understood the hate for Death Magnetic. Sure, it's not the best Metallica album but it's pretty decent. Maybe a bit too long (I would have made it only 8 songs long) but it's a decent 65/100. Maybe I'm biased because I've always though Metallica were a song band as opposed to being an album band so I don't think any of their albums as a whole is brilliant.

St. Anger could have been great if it sounded a bit better (just better drums, I'm not really asking for much more) and the songs had better structures and less in necessary repetitions. Some of the songs are pretty cool. I don't hate the album though and The Unnamed Feeling is incredible.


I think this re-recording of St. Anger shows that the album could have sounded better if Metallica made better decisions with the production. I still don't think it's a particularly good album, but they could've avoided a lot of grief if they didn't go for the trashcan snare sound among other things.


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Terri23
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:40 pm 
 

On the topic of St Anger, I got it the day it came out, and yeah, it sucked. It still sucks. However, my version came with a DVD of the band playing the album in a garage. That recording is so much better than the album version. The snare is fixed properly, and Trujillo is just a much better bassist compared to Bob Rock. It's also mixed very well. You can find it on YouTube. Worth checking out.
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King_of_Arnor
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:39 am 
 

I think this is the video Terri23 is referring to if anyone was interested.


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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:56 am 
 

King_of_Arnor wrote:
I think this is the video Terri23 is referring to if anyone was interested.


Yeah, this is the DVD that came with the CD. Sounds way better.

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wizard_of_bore
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:00 am 
 

Speaking of Guns N Roses, one record that is way overhated is Chinese Democracy. The hype built up for it was way too much, causing people who heard it to be gravely disappointed. Then you get any combination of Slash, Izzy, Duff, Steven doesn't play on it. It is not a bad album, but the contempt for the album a bit much. I have met a lot of people who actually like the album quite a bit.
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lordcatfish
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:31 am 
 

Yeah, I love Chinese Democracy. I think it's better than both Use Your Illusion albums, and I think "There Was a Time", "Catcher in the Rye", "Madagascar" and "Prostitute" are some of their best songs. Even the worst songs on there, like "Scraped" or "Riad", I'd rate as 7/10.
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HideYourHole
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:38 am 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
MeavyHetal wrote:
Quote:
The reason why I found OUTC to be overhated is because if you look at the reviews of the album, the rating average is 69%, which is considerably lower than the self-titled and Legion, whose ratings are 88% and 91% respectively.


That's what led me to post about Colored Sands. The 74% rating led me to think the album had mixed reception here at best, but apparently its more liked than I thought.


The overall score is often misleading in particular with low numbers of reviews... See albums like Alphaville: online and IRL i've heard pretty much only varying degrees of praise about it, yet here it sits barely above 50% :)

There is also the cool thing about forums that they create their own ecosystem of generally loved and generally hated bands, so the perception is always somewhat altered


Holy shit those two did Alphaville dirty what the fuck.

Aural_Disturbances wrote:
Emperor's Prometheus. Yes, it's a departure from their typical sound, and I can appreciate why someone would prefer Nightside, but it's an excellent album that broke some serious ground, and sadly nobody followed in their footsteps.

The black metal scene is full of a bunch of mouth breathers who hate innovation. It's sad.

I love this album. I think Tongue of Fire is one of their best songs.

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Destructhor3011
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:53 am 
 

Aural_Disturbances wrote:
Emperor's Prometheus. Yes, it's a departure from their typical sound, and I can appreciate why someone would prefer Nightside, but it's an excellent album that broke some serious ground, and sadly nobody followed in their footsteps.

The black metal scene is full of a bunch of mouth breathers who hate innovation. It's sad.


Well, maybe people aren´t too fond of the album because it sounds like Emperor didn´t want to play black metal anymore and instead wanted to be some kind of weird avant garde progessive bullshit band. Besides the whole album is basically an Isahn solo album and the other members don´t seem to be too fond of it.

And i believe black metal scene is probably one of the most diverse scenes around, they basically cater to almost all tastes. Wether it be doom tinted bands like Barathrum or Dodenkrocht, or DBSM like Xasthur, 2nd wave stuff like Darkthrone, or dissonant sounding black metal like Svartdaudi or even prog black metal like Enslaved. There is basically something to like for everyone. So saying black metal hates innovation seems like a ludicrous statement.

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Lord_Jotun
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:01 am 
 

Destructhor3011 wrote:
And i believe black metal scene is probably one of the most diverse scenes around, they basically cater to almost all tastes. Wether it be doom tinted bands like Barathrum or Dodenkrocht, or DBSM like Xasthur, 2nd wave stuff like Darkthrone, or dissonant sounding black metal like Svartdaudi or even prog black metal like Enslaved. There is basically something to like for everyone. So saying black metal hates innovation seems like a ludicrous statement.


Thank you.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:14 am 
 

Add onto that people singling out power metal alone as "too cheesy" - as if every other metal subgenre doesn't have equal capacity for gorgonzola-level hamminess and unintentional comedy.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:43 am 
 

Destructhor3011 wrote:
Aural_Disturbances wrote:
Emperor's Prometheus. Yes, it's a departure from their typical sound, and I can appreciate why someone would prefer Nightside, but it's an excellent album that broke some serious ground, and sadly nobody followed in their footsteps.

The black metal scene is full of a bunch of mouth breathers who hate innovation. It's sad.


Well, maybe people aren´t too fond of the album because it sounds like Emperor didn´t want to play black metal anymore and instead wanted to be some kind of weird avant garde progessive bullshit band. Besides the whole album is basically an Isahn solo album and the other members don´t seem to be too fond of it.

And i believe black metal scene is probably one of the most diverse scenes around, they basically cater to almost all tastes. Wether it be doom tinted bands like Barathrum or Dodenkrocht, or DBSM like Xasthur, 2nd wave stuff like Darkthrone, or dissonant sounding black metal like Svartdaudi or even prog black metal like Enslaved. There is basically something to like for everyone. So saying black metal hates innovation seems like a ludicrous statement.

Yeah, I love weird black metal and Prometheus always struck as just a really bland album. It has this neoclassical arrangements that are supposed to be super deep but it all just feels really samey and uninteresting. Ihsahn's voice is also terrible for the whole album. Overall it sounds more like a solo album than an Emperor release.

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HideYourHole
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:59 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Add onto that people singling out power metal alone as "too cheesy" - as if every other metal subgenre doesn't have equal capacity for gorgonzola-level hamminess and unintentional comedy.

Leave gorgonzola out of this or you're gonna catch these hands.

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interstellar_medium
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:32 am 
 

Destructhor3011 wrote:
saying black metal hates innovation seems like a ludicrous statement.


True, but on the other hand there's this stratum of BM fans who only want to hear darkthrone clones and nothing else.

And then, every band in every genre has these (sually rather vocal) fans who don't like it when that band changes things up. Hell, I know I'm that way about some bands myself.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:08 pm 
 

interstellar_medium wrote:
Destructhor3011 wrote:
saying black metal hates innovation seems like a ludicrous statement.


True, but on the other hand there's this stratum of BM fans who only want to hear darkthrone clones and nothing else.


You could just as easily argue that DM is equally diverse, but the question becomes how tightly any definitions of the genres have to be adhered to. There's a tendency to start defining the more experimental or tangential bands out of the genre.

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Prigione Eterna
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:13 pm 
 

The Burning Red by Machine Head.
It's got all the good things of the previous ones but more melody, better songwriting, better dynamics and it's overall less monotone and more menacing, also thanks to the unorthodox production. Lyrically nothing they did comes close in intensity. You can really tell they were high out of their minds.
Give me that over any of their later Metallica/Iron Maiden worship albums with plenty of needlessly long and intricate songs and perfunctory harmonized leads.
Metal heads mostly hate it because it's diverse and melodic and because of Robb Flynn's hair and looks at the time. Metal heads ridiculing somebody about silly hairdos and clothing will never make sense to me.
More accurately, I think I remember it's their best-selling album, so normal people don't actually hate it.
The next one, Supercharger, was much blander and uninspired and probably deserves some hate.

I agree about Cold Lake. It's not a good album but I don't understand all the hate and Tom Warrior still being so bitter about it.
So you made a bad album, big deal.
Plus, the music isn't nearly as atrocious as the cock-rock inspired artwork. It's just different and not at all what a fan of Celtic Frost's could have expected. Had Tom Warrior had it his way and had it come out under a different name, it wouldn't have been so big a deal and it would have probably just fallen into the oblivion.

HideYourHole wrote:
Leave gorgonzola out of this or you're gonna catch these hands.


Your arteries called, they are mad.

Empyreal wrote:
Add onto that people singling out power metal alone as "too cheesy" - as if every other metal subgenre doesn't have equal capacity for gorgonzola-level hamminess and unintentional comedy.


We're treading a thin line here, but I think power and black metal (and gothic, to a certain extent) have more potential for cheesiness, simply because they rely much more on theatrics and "drama", for lack of a better term.
For example, I can't imagine something like the mythology behind Norwegian black metal, church burnings, plenty of insanity and so on. In other genres people tend to take things and themselves less seriously and to be more chill as human beings.
In general, pomposity can also more easily lead to pretentiousness and cheesiness.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:38 pm 
 

Destructhor3011 wrote:
And i believe black metal scene is probably one of the most diverse scenes around, they basically cater to almost all tastes. Wether it be doom tinted bands like Barathrum or Dodenkrocht, or DBSM like Xasthur, 2nd wave stuff like Darkthrone, or dissonant sounding black metal like Svartdaudi or even prog black metal like Enslaved. There is basically something to like for everyone. So saying black metal hates innovation seems like a ludicrous statement.


Yes!

I also think black metal is the most diverse metal genre around.

Prigione Eterna wrote:
The Burning Red by Machine Head.
It's got all the good things of the previous ones but more melody, better songwriting, better dynamics and it's overall less monotone and more menacing, also thanks to the unorthodox production. Lyrically nothing they did comes close in intensity. You can really tell they were high out of their minds.


Nice one! I also like The Burning Red. It was a big departure so I understand the initial confusion but I think they actually did the genre crossing well on that one. It also includes one of my favourite songs by them in Five.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:49 pm 
 

Wasn't Superchager more universally hated than The Burning Red? Not a great fan of The Burning Red either but it was ok, I though the consensus was Supercharger and Catharsis were way worse.

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Prigione Eterna
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Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:38 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Wasn't Superchager more universally hated than The Burning Red? Not a great fan of The Burning Red either but it was ok, I though the consensus was Supercharger and Catharsis were way worse.


I think with Supercharger there was less outrage, though, since it was with The Burning Red that they went nu-metal, apparently (mostly because of how they looked, because musically I don't think it was that big a departure from previous records). Now it's probably less hated but more polarizing than Supercharger.
I seem to remember Robb Flynn still being a little defensive about The Burning Red in interviews etc.

Something else came to me...there are a couple of Napalm Death records around the mid 90s, the so called "groovy" era, that don't seem to get much love but I don't mind them.
Also Us And Them by Godflesh, but I honestly can't remember if all people hated it or only Justin Broadrick. It's certainly not a bad album, although it's weird even for Godflesh.
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Last edited by Prigione Eterna on Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:38 pm 
 

Aggregate ratings for TBR are a bit higher than SC, though both are well above Catharsis.

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:53 pm 
 

Kalaratri wrote:
I think this re-recording of St. Anger shows that the album could have sounded better if Metallica made better decisions with the production. I still don't think it's a particularly good album, but they could've avoided a lot of grief if they didn't go for the trashcan snare sound among other things.


All this does is show that it's not just the sound that sucks, the songs blow too.
This reminds of the line in Unforgiven, "now I dub thee", those lyrics sucked. St Anger is an album full of that level of suckiness.

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