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Commisaur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:16 am
Posts: 190
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:10 pm 
 

For the longest time I’ve always wanted not only a new guitar , but also one with a tremolo bar.

I pretty much gave up looking for one last year due to a series of very bad experiences trying to shop for one.

But this year, as I complete the songwriting for a new album, I’m going to try to look for one again

So I’m willing to pay good money for a really good one. I’d say $800+ is my budget. I don’t have a guitar brand preference, but I am very comfortable with the SG body of guitar as I have been using an Epiphone SG for over 10 years. I am also familiar with the whole Floyd Rose locking bridge(?) setup and how that mechanism is considered the best for extreme trem bar usage, but I don’t know if it’s the best. I also want to get one that is capable of doing all the crazy OSDM trem bar work. For example, like the trem bar work from bands like Morbid Angel, Massacre and most especially and importantly the Vincebus Eruptum album era of Blue Cheer. I have yet to hear anyone that sounds like Leigh Stephen’s trem bar performances on that album or try out a guitar w/trem that sounds like him


———


So everything I mentioned above are my specifications in a nutshell. Read further if you want to read about my more detailed questions regarding the process of looking for a quality product, and about the issues that I ran into last year at music stores:

When I’m trying out guitars w/trem in a store, what should I look for in them to ensure that it is a quality guitar and a quality trem bar? What are the main things to look for?

Also if I have zero technique and skill with the trem bar how am I to sufficiently test out the quality of a trem bar in the uncomfortable setting of a store?

Also I noticed that all the trem bars I tested out so far at stores sounded really weak and lightweight versus the meaty full tone of all the OSDM whammy bar guitar work. Is this an amp or trem issue? Feedback? And actually ALL of the trem bars I tried out sound absolutely nothing like Leigh Stephen’s trem bar work on Blue Cheer’s Vincebus Eruptum album. What do I need to do to sound like him? What trem bar was he using? Or was did he just use a lot of feedback?

It’s also a real pain to test out trem bars at the stores because you have to ask an employee to get one from storage and have them screw it on all the time because they say customers steal them. And every time I ask for a trem bar they always seemed either annoyed or confused - like they’ve never been asked this question before. Is this normal? Is seeking out a guitar with a quality trem bar a very niche unusual thing?

My personal experiences trying to meet other Metal musicians seems to confirm this as all of the guitarists who like to play metal I have met have no trem bars or if they have one they’ll always tell me “I don’t know how to use it...”

But yet, all the OSDM guitarists from back in the day used one. They all make the ownership and proficient use of a trem bar seem very commonplace among metal musicians (I guess only among the really serious professional musicians).

Here’s the story of the incident at Guitar Center where all the uncertainty with trem bars became too overwhelming and I just gave up: so last year when I was at a Guitar Center I went through the usual rude service for about 15 min before finally getting settled in with a guitar w/trem. I started to try to channel my inner Trey Azagthoth from Morbid Angel and do some brutal twisted wailing of notes with the trem bar. This lasted for about 2 minutes before the trem bar became loose, limp and useless. I told the employee about this and he accused me of being too rough with the trem bar. I found this hard to believe as all I was doing was gentle dives bringing the trem bar up and down. And I also was trying to apply wide vibrato on notes by moving the trem bar rapidly up and down in a short concentrated motion . Though I did this rapidly, I still maintained a gentle handling of the bar. I did not shake the bar vigorously or violently. I’ve watched my favorite OSDM guitarists be much more violent towards the trem bar. I also felt like my motion techniques were similar to those guitarists too. I explained this to the employee but he still insisted I was being too rough. The worst part about all this was he told me he was fixing someone else’s guitar and would not be able to fix the trem bar for another 30-45 min. And there was barely any customers at all in the entire store. So I waited patiently. When I got the guitar back I tried it out again and the same thing happened again. As crazy as it sounds I at this point wanted to buy that guitar because I eventually bought into his explanations, but he told me he couldn’t fix the trem bar again until tomorrow morning. I said I would come back the next day to buy the guitar. However by the time I got back home that night, I decided I had had enough of trem bar shopping and just would save myself from a lot of pain, save $800+ and just continue to use my battered worn out Epiphone SG. Any thoughts on my experience here?

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Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 2307
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:16 am 
 

A little premise: The crazy OSDM bar work needs a Floyd Rose bridge, humbuckers, a good amount of distortion and some capable hands.
A lot of guitarists struggle to achieve the ear piercing siren sounds only to realize that they are doing it wrong: for example one thing that many starters don't know is how to use harmonics, those can make absolutely insane sounds, like the ones at 4:24 onwards of this video

Spoiler: show


also back in the day Blue Cheer used guitars like Stratocasters and SG's with what looks like Maestro Vibrola tremolos, those guitars (in particular the SG) have limited tremolo range if compared to Floyd Rose tremolos, but in the right hands and with enough volume the variety of sounds you can achieve is impressive. I own a Stratocaster and with the right setup i can really go wild with it.

In short: the tremolo bar capable of the most insane tricks is the Floyd Rose, and a well built guitar with one of those and a pair of humbuckers will allow you to do all kinds of crazy stuff, provided you understand and practice the technique.
The atmosphere of the shop and you inexperience with the bar may make you think that the guitar you are holding is not capable of it, but with a bit of practice you'll be able to do all kind of tricks.

For the models: it's pretty hard to find SG-like guitars with that kind of tremolos, they are practically always built on guitars with superstrat designs.
Personally lately i've been really impressed with how well built are some high-end Schecter guitars, but realistically any brand has some really good stuff in the price range you are willing to pay, it's up to you to see what inspires you.

I'm sorry for the bad experience with the guitar center, it's quite hard to understand what happened without seeing it first hand :(
normally a good Floyd Tremolo can sustain any kind of heavy abuse (like completely pulling down the lever or heavy fluttering) it's a bit weird to see it fall apart easily.

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Commisaur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:16 am
Posts: 190
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:39 pm 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
A little premise: The crazy OSDM bar work needs a Floyd Rose bridge, humbuckers, a good amount of distortion and some capable hands.
A lot of guitarists struggle to achieve the ear piercing siren sounds only to realize that they are doing it wrong: for example one thing that many starters don't know is how to use harmonics, those can make absolutely insane sounds, like the ones at 4:24 onwards of this video

Spoiler: show


also back in the day Blue Cheer used guitars like Stratocasters and SG's with what looks like Maestro Vibrola tremolos, those guitars (in particular the SG) have limited tremolo range if compared to Floyd Rose tremolos, but in the right hands and with enough volume the variety of sounds you can achieve is impressive. I own a Stratocaster and with the right setup i can really go wild with it.

In short: the tremolo bar capable of the most insane tricks is the Floyd Rose, and a well built guitar with one of those and a pair of humbuckers will allow you to do all kinds of crazy stuff, provided you understand and practice the technique.
The atmosphere of the shop and you inexperience with the bar may make you think that the guitar you are holding is not capable of it, but with a bit of practice you'll be able to do all kind of tricks.

For the models: it's pretty hard to find SG-like guitars with that kind of tremolos, they are practically always built on guitars with superstrat designs.
Personally lately i've been really impressed with how well built are some high-end Schecter guitars, but realistically any brand has some really good stuff in the price range you are willing to pay, it's up to you to see what inspires you.

I'm sorry for the bad experience with the guitar center, it's quite hard to understand what happened without seeing it first hand :(
normally a good Floyd Tremolo can sustain any kind of heavy abuse (like completely pulling down the lever or heavy fluttering) it's a bit weird to see it fall apart easily.


Thanks for the advice. That cleared up a lot for me.

I just got three more questions:

I heard that I should make sure the trem bar I’m getting is an original and/or a licensed Floyd Rose. Is this correct?

And when I am testing the guitar out, is there anything I should look for to make sure the guitar (and especially the trem bar) is not defective?

And lastly, are BC Rich guitars really that bad right now? A year ago or so everyone on Ultimate Guitar forums told me that even though they once made quality guitars everything they make now is just crap and furthermore all their celebrity endorsers have left including even Kerry King. I was really sad to hear this because not only have I always wanted a Floyd Rose trem bar guitar, but I also always wanted a BC Rich Mockingbird body with a Floyd Rose trem bar. For aesthetic reasons, that is my favorite guitar body shape of all time. No other shape elicits any where near the same amount of excitement.

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Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 2307
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:12 pm 
 

The general consensus is that Floyd Rose Original tremolos tend to be better than Licensed ones. Personally i had only one bad experience with a Licensed one, but it was on a cheap Jackson Dinky.

The thing to look for is probably how much you feel comfortable when moving the bar and checking out how well the guitar stays in tune after a little whammy abuse: if it becomes limp or the tuning gets heavily fucked up after few uses that's probably a guitar i wouldn't get :lol:

For the last part unfortunately i've never played much a BC Rich guitar.. most people seems to agree that their quality has fallen down in recent years, but when possible i always prefer to try firsthand to see if the guitar feels right in my hands. If it looks great, feels great to play and stays in tune then get it!

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Commisaur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:16 am
Posts: 190
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:25 am 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
The general consensus is that Floyd Rose Original tremolos tend to be better than Licensed ones. Personally i had only one bad experience with a Licensed one, but it was on a cheap Jackson Dinky.

The thing to look for is probably how much you feel comfortable when moving the bar and checking out how well the guitar stays in tune after a little whammy abuse: if it becomes limp or the tuning gets heavily fucked up after few uses that's probably a guitar i wouldn't get :lol:

For the last part unfortunately i've never played much a BC Rich guitar.. most people seems to agree that their quality has fallen down in recent years, but when possible i always prefer to try firsthand to see if the guitar feels right in my hands. If it looks great, feels great to play and stays in tune then get it!


Ok thanks! I have a much better idea for how I should go about buying this

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Ilwhyan
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8583
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:01 am 
 

My experiences with Floyd Roses, in a nutshell:

- I have an Ibanez, with a licensed Floyd Rose, the guitar being bang on in your price range. It's RG series, made in Japan. Awful tuning stability, and poor features overall.
- I had a Schecter with an original Floyd Rose, the guitar being actually much cheaper, at only 520€ new. The Floyd was good quality, and did all the flutters, dive bombs, etc. that you might expect. It did not have perfect tuning stability, and the guitar would always go slightly out of tune after heavy usage.
- Neither of them was worth the hassle by any margin. Changing strings takes more effort, tuning the guitar takes longer, and if you snap a string at a gig, you're done. Your guitar is completely out of tune on every remaining string, and you need a back-up guitar to finish the song, even if you wouldn't even need the string that you snapped.
- Forget switching tunings on the guitar. Going from standard to drop takes 1 second on any other guitar, but on a Floyd guitar, you need to remove the locking nuts, drop the tuning, re-tune for 2 minutes, put back the locking nuts, and re-tune again with the fine tuners.

The most fun I had with it was playing this Cryptopsy riff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiAV6_YZQl8&t=47s
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Commisaur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:16 am
Posts: 190
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:53 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
My experiences with Floyd Roses, in a nutshell:

- I have an Ibanez, with a licensed Floyd Rose, the guitar being bang on in your price range. It's RG series, made in Japan. Awful tuning stability, and poor features overall.
- I had a Schecter with an original Floyd Rose, the guitar being actually much cheaper, at only 520€ new. The Floyd was good quality, and did all the flutters, dive bombs, etc. that you might expect. It did not have perfect tuning stability, and the guitar would always go slightly out of tune after heavy usage.
- Neither of them was worth the hassle by any margin. Changing strings takes more effort, tuning the guitar takes longer, and if you snap a string at a gig, you're done. Your guitar is completely out of tune on every remaining string, and you need a back-up guitar to finish the song, even if you wouldn't even need the string that you snapped.
- Forget switching tunings on the guitar. Going from standard to drop takes 1 second on any other guitar, but on a Floyd guitar, you need to remove the locking nuts, drop the tuning, re-tune for 2 minutes, put back the locking nuts, and re-tune again with the fine tuners.

The most fun I had with it was playing this Cryptopsy riff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiAV6_YZQl8&t=47s


I don’t mind going through the hassle of a more difficult string changing process. I’m very motivated and excited to do whatever it takes to be able to use trem bar.

I also never plan on playing live so strings breaking during a live show are not going to be an issue for me

I also never plan on switching tunings. I always only play in the one whole step down tuning. I plan on having the guitar tech in the store tune it for me and then it’ll remain in that tuning forever

With that being said, are you trying to tell me that ALL guitars with Floyd Rose are unreliable and are unstable tuning wise? How much money do I need to pay for a Floyd Rose that will remain in tune after normal trem bar use over a reasonable period of time ?

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Jasper92
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 871
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:18 pm 
 

Commisaur wrote:
I don’t mind going through the hassle of a more difficult string changing process. I’m very motivated and excited to do whatever it takes to be able to use trem bar.

I also never plan on playing live so strings breaking during a live show are not going to be an issue for me

I also never plan on switching tunings. I always only play in the one whole step down tuning. I plan on having the guitar tech in the store tune it for me and then it’ll remain in that tuning forever

With that being said, are you trying to tell me that ALL guitars with Floyd Rose are unreliable and are unstable tuning wise? How much money do I need to pay for a Floyd Rose that will remain in tune after normal trem bar use over a reasonable period of time ?


In my expierence a guitar with a good quality floyd rose is even more stable in terms of tuning than one without the double locking mechanism. I rarely have to tune my Jackson RR24 with floyd rose 2000 series trem and my Mayones with a Schaller floyd rose and my Solar with Floyd Rose 1000 series trem (but that guitar is newer).

I would suggest to avoid Floyd Rose Special bridges. They seem to be of inferior quality from what I read and wear/degrade after time. With the Floyd Rose brand from better series (1000, 2000, original) I think you're better off.
I believe Schaller licensed floyd roses are mostly good too and the Gotoh licensed floyds I also only hear good things about.

Ibanez makes their own Floyd variations. Some are really good, some are utter crap. You have to do a little investigation about those bridges.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8583
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:37 am 
 

Commisaur wrote:
With that being said, are you trying to tell me that ALL guitars with Floyd Rose are unreliable and are unstable tuning wise? How much money do I need to pay for a Floyd Rose that will remain in tune after normal trem bar use over a reasonable period of time ?

Well, in the spectrum of tuning stability, Floyd Roses are kinda mediocre at the best of times. It's just really difficult to design a floating tremolo that doesn't affect tuning stability, so it's not really about how much you need to pay - it's about inherent vices. Locking nuts help a lot, certainly, but with new strings, you will always get things out of tune as the strings stretch a little bit. With broken-in strings, you can get decent stability as long as you don't use the trem bar heavily, or do heavy bends (as in more than 2 half steps).

The real problem with Floyd Rose tuning stability, in my experience, isn't that strings go out of tune often. That can happen a lot with any guitar. The problem is that any string going out of tune makes every other string go out of tune as well. Bend one string too hard, and your entire guitar's tuning is out of whack.

In practice, it's not all that dire as I'm making it sound like (probably), but I just really don't like them.
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mocata9
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:56 pm
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:10 pm 
 

I have Floyds on a few of my guitars. The main issue between the licensed versions and the "Original" Floyd seems to be the quality and strength of some of the pieces used. The licensed ones apparently use softer metal and they get all jacked up more easily. So, that is certainly something to watch out for when buying a guitar with a Floyd. For instance, if the knife edges on the bridge get blunted, the bridge just will not stay in tune. Having said that, the two main guitars that I play that have them stay in tune fine. They are going to go out of tune over time as that is how guitars are, but I can do a lot of ridiculous stuff on them and they will go back into tune. Of course, most touring bands have guitar techs who have to deal with a lot of that stuff, so it isn't necessarily a big deal to those players.

Another option is the Kahler bridge. That is another big one. Kerry King and Jeff Hanneman both played those, as does Roger Beaujard from Mortician, plus various other guys. You should be able to do most of the same things as you can with the Floyd, except for the flutter effect, but even some of the licensed Floyds I think won't really do that. These work a bit differently though, so they have different things to look out for. Also, if you want to be able to pull up on the bar, the Kahler does have better range for that. The Floyd will go up, but the Kahler goes farther up. Of course, you will find devotees of both Kahler and Floyd and they will talk about how the other sucks so bad and the one they like is the greatest thing in the world.

Yes, a Floyd takes longer to change strings and changing tunings is a bit of a hassle, as you need to balance the bridge out, but it really isn't that bad. I think it is just something you get used to. For the loose arm and that, you will likely have to tighten the nut periodically as they tend to loosen as you bash on them. I know there are some rubber pieces you can get that keep the arms from rattling around in there, but I have never used one like that.

In a store, I am not sure how much you can get away with abusing a Floyd before they ask you to just leave. If you are at least able to dive really low and then bring it back up and pull up on it some and then back down to see if it stays in tune, you should be okay. And, somebody else mentioned this, but artificial harmonics are your friend if you want crazy squealing stuff. A wah pedal can also add to the sound when you stuff going off on the Floyd.

As for the BC Rich question, I am not sure how the current guitars are, as I have not played one. I have however, played some from the last 10-15 years. Many of them were actually quite good guitars and were reasonably priced. The main issue for the "BC Rich sucks now" thing is that Rich started licensing the name, as Floyd Rose did, and there were some really low quality guitars made, plus all the ownership changes. All this equals a lot of damage to a once-good name that has never really been repaired. If you ask me, the current guitars seem a bit on the pricey side, but again, I have not played one, so maybe they are amazing.

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Ilwhyan
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:24 am 
 

mocata9 wrote:
I have Floyds on a few of my guitars. The main issue between the licensed versions and the "Original" Floyd seems to be the quality and strength of some of the pieces used. The licensed ones apparently use softer metal and they get all jacked up more easily. So, that is certainly something to watch out for when buying a guitar with a Floyd. For instance, if the knife edges on the bridge get blunted, the bridge just will not stay in tune. Having said that, the two main guitars that I play that have them stay in tune fine. They are going to go out of tune over time as that is how guitars are, but I can do a lot of ridiculous stuff on them and they will go back into tune. Of course, most touring bands have guitar techs who have to deal with a lot of that stuff, so it isn't necessarily a big deal to those players.

Another option is the Kahler bridge. That is another big one. Kerry King and Jeff Hanneman both played those, as does Roger Beaujard from Mortician, plus various other guys. You should be able to do most of the same things as you can with the Floyd, except for the flutter effect, but even some of the licensed Floyds I think won't really do that. These work a bit differently though, so they have different things to look out for. Also, if you want to be able to pull up on the bar, the Kahler does have better range for that. The Floyd will go up, but the Kahler goes farther up. Of course, you will find devotees of both Kahler and Floyd and they will talk about how the other sucks so bad and the one they like is the greatest thing in the world.

Yes, a Floyd takes longer to change strings and changing tunings is a bit of a hassle, as you need to balance the bridge out, but it really isn't that bad. I think it is just something you get used to. For the loose arm and that, you will likely have to tighten the nut periodically as they tend to loosen as you bash on them. I know there are some rubber pieces you can get that keep the arms from rattling around in there, but I have never used one like that.

In a store, I am not sure how much you can get away with abusing a Floyd before they ask you to just leave. If you are at least able to dive really low and then bring it back up and pull up on it some and then back down to see if it stays in tune, you should be okay. And, somebody else mentioned this, but artificial harmonics are your friend if you want crazy squealing stuff. A wah pedal can also add to the sound when you stuff going off on the Floyd.

As for the BC Rich question, I am not sure how the current guitars are, as I have not played one. I have however, played some from the last 10-15 years. Many of them were actually quite good guitars and were reasonably priced. The main issue for the "BC Rich sucks now" thing is that Rich started licensing the name, as Floyd Rose did, and there were some really low quality guitars made, plus all the ownership changes. All this equals a lot of damage to a once-good name that has never really been repaired. If you ask me, the current guitars seem a bit on the pricey side, but again, I have not played one, so maybe they are amazing.

Good post! Yeah, some of the cheaper licensed Floyd Roses don't flutter. When it comes to Floyds, that's actually a decent litmus test for its quality. The licensed one I had in my Schecter fluttered well, so the better ones have that feature too.
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SufferingQuota
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Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:44 pm
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 4:28 pm 
 

I rarely play guitars without Floyd Rose-type tremolos. Basically, any of these are good variants of the Floyd Rose design:

- Floyd Rose Original
- Floyd Rose 1000/1500/2000 Series
- Ibanez Edge/Lo-Pro Edge
- Gotoh 1996t
- Schaller Lockmeister

I find the tuning stability damn near perfect, both on my Floyd Rose Original and my Ibanez Edge-equipped guitars. I can easily play a one hour live gig or a three hour band practice without going out of tune. At least not enough that others can hear it. I think you'll be happy with a Floyd-equipped guitar. Most guitars come with the 1000/1500/2000 Series nowadays. It's supposed to be made with the same materials as the Original, but in South Korea instead of Germany. I've played both extensively and didn't notice any difference in quality.

As is mentioned earlier in this thread, to get the sound you are looking for, the tremolo alone is not enough. You also need a good distorted guitar tone. I like to run a Peavey 5150 with a Tubescreamer in front. In the effects loop I have a delay pedal and a noise gate. That way I can get that epic lead tone without suffering from too much unwanted noise.

I would recommmend a used Jackson Pro Series, Solar Guitars, LTD and Schecter. All those come with 1000/1500/2000 Series Floyds. I don't know what your budget is, but sometimes you can find USA Jacksons for a reasonable buck. They are amazing and come with a Floyd Rose Original. I've played and gigged my Jackson USA RR1 extensively the last two years, and it's worked perfectly all the time, with Evertune-like stability.
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Tekdeth
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Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:32 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 11:19 am 
 

At 800 dollars most brands still use either a Floyd Special or a licensed equivalent. Cort seems to be one of the few brands that realizes that an 80 dollar trem system in an 800 dollar guitar is fucking retarded, so I suggest checking out their KX-500 Menace. Has a Floyd Rose Original trem and the Seymour Duncan Nazgul/Sentient combo. Stainless steel frets, locking tuners, all that good stuff. If you don't like it check out their other guitars, great brand.

Also yeah, Kahlers are pretty much superior to Floyds in every way, but good luck finding them on a guitar in this price range. Since Kahlers require way less routing in a guitar I guess you could buy the trem on its own and let someone route out the required space on a guitar without a trem. If you don't mind the hassle it might be worth it. Floyds are still good trems though, Kahlers are just more popular among trem elitists, haha.
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