KingSpooky wrote:
Azmodes wrote:
Despite what baldadeath says, it's okay if we don't yet have enough information to add bands with proper discographies, as long as there is evidence that a release existed. Something is better than nothing at all.
Yeah, I always thought that it's better to get those kind of bands onto the site because then the public can be made aware of its existence if they're not already, and it becomes open for them to add in further details or seek out the music or more info. Having it on the site in the additional notes has paid off a lot of times, when a band member or someone local to them with firsthand knowledge finds it on the site, and next thing you know the cover art, full track listing, band members, etc. are there. Have seen it happen dozens of times, and had those bands sat around this thread they wouldn't be on the site now in complete detail. There's a lot of reasons why people in these bands aren't actively making the details of their music history available. A lot of bands just don't have a person who thinks to do things like that in their lineup, and some are critical of their own work (even though sometimes it ends up being awesome), or have very humble personalities and writing about their accomplishments from decades ago isn't one of the things they choose to do when they sit down at a computer. Some barely even use computers (like the guy that I got a Pain "In to the Bloodbath" 1987 j-card photo from over the weekend that's never been seen online). The truth is that hardly anyone checks this thread, whereas people are running searches on the main site all the time, and some will be made aware and take enough interest to find out something more, maybe decide to contribute the new knowledge here. That is what will lead to a more complete page, or at least make there be a better chance for it to eventually exist.
I agree with all these points but - according to my experience - that's not enough. I can make several examples
For example, the most common one is when people send me messages asking to remove photos or information from this or that band. Because I didn't pay to use "their" photo or "their" information which are meant for share only among local people and closed communities. Once I was even asked to remove at all one band's page from Singapore because it would have affected the sales of the upcoming re-release (I don't know if I can name the band as I got some troubles): in the end I agreed not to mention the vinyl re-release but obviously refused to remove the full page for the band. The reason? If I want to use information that circulates among collectors or local forums, I must pay.
One guy from HK told me: "we have several bands who recorded demos in the 80's or 90's but these informatio, images or audio sources can circulate only among loyal fans because europeans will use them to make bootleg of our treasures".
Despite speaking chinese (as well as malay and russian), and living in Taiwan for nearly 1 year and half - I wasn't able to find any information or any reply to my request by the many rock/metal blogs, forums, communities that I joined to while I was studying there. As one member said once: "are you foreigner?" "Yes".... one second later I was kicked out from the group. Could happen everywhere, I know. But I am just talking about my experiences and researches in 19 years of travels, wprking and living in Asia. Maybe it happens also in several other parts of the world, hopefully.
I was thrown out of every malaysian forum community as well as bangla metal communities because I am a foreigner and always for the same reason: these information are NOT for foreigners.
So, we have to face a cultural opposition most of times: because as a foreigner I can make money with such information (I wonder how, btw) or simply because I am not "one of them". In a few word, it looks like people out of a closed community or out from a certain national origin should not put their nose into their business. That's why there is a very scarce - almost unexisting - participation of people from some countries on the developping and growth of M-A: because it's not their business (to contribute) nor our business (to put our nose inside their scene). They know, they share. Why others should join in their own conversation, business and knowledge? Most of times there is the suspicion that we only want to do it for money (when you live in some countries and do not go there as a tourist, you will realize that the level of reciprocal suspicion among people is extremely high: everybody is seen as a potential thief or menace to our own properties first of all). Sorry to be direct or somehow racist.... but I prefer to show the reality of a society (or a foreigner living in exotic society) rather than the fake smiles of a tourist' quick point of view. And, anyway, I wouldn't spend nearly 20 years in the same countries if I wouldn't like them, in the end. But there is some attitudes or cultural approach that we must be aware of, like in every other country where we want to live we have to know local mentality first of all.
In a certain way, this happens in Italy too.... some of the most famous FB groups are totally against M-A and it's not frequent to read on member's pages comments such as "the same bastard used these information for that shitty website" (referring to M-A) or "I am sure the same leecher will copy these information for that website".... like it's a matter of pride not to share with M-A simply because local heroes should be known and discussed or known by local fans only. Why somebody "out of the group" (any kind of group: musical, ethnic, racial) should put their nose into our own business?
That's why if I get even a single reply over more than 100 bands I write to, or from more than 100 people I write to, I feel like touching heaven with my hand. Because my experience told me that I know that - as a foreigner - nobody will reply me. Expecially in certain Asian scenes, where every request of information or picture found can be seen as a potential - and unauthorized - way to make money on them.
There was a band that I know they released a demo CD a couple years ago (I saw it for sale in various music shops at Campbell Complex in KL) that I got in touch with in order to ask for a proper picture of the cd, tracklist and a short bio: I was answered to get in touch with their manager explaining the REAL reason of my request, to provide them an official pro forma request and references of the administrators of M-A and submit all these shit to their manager before he would decide whether to provide such information or not. Hell. Were they afraid that we could become billionaire with sharing these information on an Encyclopedia?
Most of times I am also asked to heavily watermark photos so that "people can not use them to make bootleg".... I wonder where can we go with such approach??? It seems that sharing means "stealing and scamming" in some parts of the world.
M-A is widely used as an instrument of reference for talking, sharing comments, showing relevant datas in every music group I join(ed) in.... so it's not unknown to them. But none of the people I contacted with that I knew they had this or that demo, this or that information necessary to fill some gap ever replied to me.
On the contrary I got - and still get in my email account - lot of request to remove this or that picture, this or that information because they belong to somebody else and if I want to use them, I must pay. That's what make me feel angry: closed mentality, greedy mentality, suspicious mentality. And lazy mentality too: because - yes - they use M-A as a relevant instrument f reference - but nodoby contributes to it adding more information. They just sit and wait until somebody else will do the dirty job for them.
Then, yes, there are situations where the lack of organization is relevant: I was seeing a few videos about an exhibition of rock and metal memorabilia in Madagascar shared in many FB groups. It was an exhibition held a few months ago, quite big with lot of space and lot of photos. All photos taken from newspaper and magazine or the same photos circulating over and over and over again in the many FB groups by malgasy rockers. Not even a single photo of an album, a demo, a cd, a cassette.... not even the few ones already known. I wrote to 4-5 contacts I have there - people who played in the very early metal bands such as Pharaons, Kazar, Holy Angels asking why they didn't sowcased photos of their cassette albums as they do exist for sure: they said that "they are old cassettes, it's impossible to find them nowadays but you can watch some of our videos on YT". ????. What does it mean? Simply that in Madagascar - like in Pakistan where I am trying to get photos of the first 3 metal bands who released cassette albums for sure (Final Cut, The Barbarians and Axe Attack) they give priorities to videos and filmed images to cassette and albums. Because on videos you can appreciate more the virtual skill of the guitarist or the singer rather than on tape. Yeah, ok, good to know but why not sharing a copy of the cassette or a tracklist so that I can create a page on M-A? "Oh but they never released an album". "Uh, that's curious: I have full tracklist of Barbarians albu including catalogue number of the cassette and there are several pages where band members confirm its existence and that it was distributed also in Australia among immigrants shops. Same for Final Cut who have several videos and users confirmed to have their album": no reply by anybody anymore.
So.... ok for all the above mentioned point (no internet, no interest, no knowledge of this website and this section of the webistwe, denying the past and whatever else) but when you come across some specific and very marginal scenes you also have to face a sort of cultural opposition by locals who do not like too much that foreigners put their nose into their own business. Us is us, you is you, in a few words. And those "us" rarely share information with some unknown "you": for what reason?
For example I appreciate a lot russian people who try to dig out from obscurity the THOUSAND of bands and releases totally unknown until today: for too many years everything was organized in a to much chaotic way, nobody took really care and it was nearly impossible to dig out into the most remote and isolated part of the country in search of information. Luckily nowadays lot of russian collectors felt the urge, importance and necessity to organize everything in a proper way to know who's who and luckily since a few years there's a constant interest in reissuing all these lost gems. And it's getting more and more popular: only GS Productions has already scheduled around 100 reisussues planned from now to the end of 2024. And it seems it would not stop there. But albums are shared - and if you have VK you can find them with mostly full tracklist, full covers where available and found.... in a few words: full transparency and full accessibility to everybody in order to discuss, share, talk.
This does still not happen in other parts of the world where sharing and showing is seen as a potential threat or lost of money. And I can't underatand why, unless we assume that money or ethnic ties are more important than reciprocal trust
Then, feel free to delete this post if it hurts somebody's sensibility or it may be used by some friend in order to ban me from the few local FB groups where I am still accepted in. When I started digging into asian metal history and development in 2004, I was aware that we have to face some barriers but I will try anyway to accomplish my task. Next steps are a planned visit to Pakistan and a new trip to Nepal where in the last months old music shops reopened again: hope to find those 10-15 bands and tapes that I need to listen to, for my researches. And a planned trip to North East of India where I know for sure there were dozen and dozen bands who released demos and full albums in the late 80's and early 90's. It would be hard but let's see what can comes out.
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