As history had already showed us nationalism and christianity walk hand in hand (the Crusades, mottos like "Nation, Religion, Family", the so-called "Christian right" etc). I don't know about your country but that tie is still pretty strong in Greece. Mainstream media propagate heavily both nationalism and christianity (although I can foresee that in some years from now the media are going to propagate PCness). Personally, I don't find it weird cause both christianity and nationalism have common roots in dualism (both believe that they represent something "superior" when the so-called "adversary" represents something "inferior").

What surprises me most is the fact that a lot of members of this board have nationalistic tendecies and are anti-christian in the same time (something that never ceased to impress me). I find that situation to be an oxymoron.

So, this thread is meant to contain discussion about the ties of nationalism and christianity. Discuss

It's fairly simple, I don't see what there is to discuss really. The whole christian thing by nationalist parties is only to gain votes. At least in the probably most world famous national movement in my own country pretty much none of the key members had any particular sympathy for the churches or the christian religion. Some, like Hitler himself, Himmler or Goebbels even were quite outspoken against it, while their party still allied themselves with christian groups to keep the peace in the nation.

Yippie! Mors_Gloria Thread!

It's not only christianity that walks hand in hand with nationalism. Every people has its own beliefs and therefore is supported by it's church. Doesn't matter if it is the Christian or the Islamic or whatever church. It is a case of national pride that relies on faith. Please remember that all the Middle European nations and the USA were founded in the name of Christianity since the fall of the roman Empire.

The catholic church has a big ignorance for other beliefs (as this ridiculous case shows: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 758581.ece)
Therfore, their only "allied" in their imaginary "fight" against other religions would be the nations that practise and support them. Same goes the other way round as it can clearly be seen with what's going on with arabs reasoning every act of violence with their stupid religion.

Above that, I've neither noticed much nationalist tendencies nor anti-christianism on this board so far.

Himmler was against Christianity that's true but Hitler wasn't. In his speaches he used Christianity as an excuse to pursue Jews. I cannot consider him non-Christian after this statement.

Hitler was an extremely adamant and outspoken atheist, as you can see by countless statements by him on that subject. In large public speeches, he only used christianity as a means of propaganda, and even there he never openly endorsed it.

He did openly endorsed it. He said:

"As a Christian it's my duty to pursue those who killed our Savior"

I'd like to see quotes that indicate that he was not a Christian.

Same. I always believed Hitler to be a particularly strong Christian.

Within the nationalist scene (at least here in Sweden) you'll find Christians and atheists, as well as a few Jews and neo-pagans, like you would in any other political movement (okay, you'd probably have a hard time finding neo-pagans elsewhere). I see no contradiction in combining religion or its absence with nationalism.

Mors_Gloria mentions the "Christian right" as having something to do with nationalism. Contrary to popular belief, nationalism is not a far right ideology, nor can it be placed anywhere else on the traditional left-right scale. I am a nationalist and happen to lean more towards capitalism, but the impression I have gathered is that most Swedish nationalists prefer a more left-oriented economy.



Nationalism is not about proclaiming one's own people as superior. That's more like chauvinism. It simply says that all people should have a land of their own.

The Christian Right of Greece is highly nationalistic. It's true Nationalism cannot be placed anywhere on the traditional left-right scale but at least in Greece (which is a country that is at least 20 years back) you will not find Nationalism within left-oriented beliefs (neither Christianity you'll find within them).



That's called Patriotism, not Nationalism.

Ok, give me a day or two, a friend of mine (the owner of the late BlutKriegSieg zine, now Ritual of the Cloven Hoof) is a collector of Hitler quotes, and he has all those ones from speeches in front of university classes, just need to try to get a hold of him. Those quotes are very openly anti-christian, though.

I'll mail him now, maybe I can even convince him to join the board and enter the discussion himself, he certainly is one of the most intelligent and knowledgable persons I have ever encountered.

No, patriotism is a love of one's country. It's connected to nationalism, like class hatred is to socialism, but they're not synonymous.



Id est that each people should have their own country.

That should be intriguing. Ok, you have all the time you need.

Then why people with Nationalistic beliefs exist in countries that already are independent and autonomous? The nationalists that I've personally encountered just think that they are superior cause they're Greek and that all others are inferior.

EDIT: Edited for quoting errors.

I think Scorpio should still remember the guy from my (formerly Irreligious') hub, too. Grymyrk was one of the contra-ANUSite guys alongside me, Wolf-Rune and Eric Syre. Ah, those were the days...

(though back then I actually still regularly talked to SRP... he might be a fucking bum but he can be quite reasonable to talk to... his pissing on Rainer Padamsee created quite a rift though)

Hmm, Scorpio is a great debater. His posts at the Dualism thread put me in shame.

Then they're expressing chauvinistic opinions, not nationalistic.



I would guess that the upsurge of nationalism in Europe is largely a counter-reaction to multiculturalism and to a lesser extent the EU. The EU undermines the independence of the the state whereas multiculturalism (usually due to mass immigration) threatens the nation and the people.

I think the debate on nationalism itself should have its own thread, especially in light of a certain recent development in southeast Europe. Actually, I found the responses from groups like the Basque Liberation Front and the Scottish National Party to the independence of Kosovo quite interesting and promising. As a seperatist myself I strongly support the idea of dismantling large nations into smaller entities of course. Still, this of course has nothing to do with the relation between nationalism and religion, which the thread is supposed to be about, just had to add my two cents to the side-discussion.

Hmm, I can see your point and I think that it deserves a thread. But just out of curiousity what was the response of the Basque Liberation Front and the Scottish National Party?

PS: I believe that the smaller the nation the better. If it's non-existent it's even better

I only know the responses from a German news-site, but it's probably on cnn.com as well, considering n-tv.de is technically a sister site to cnn.com. The general idea is that other seperatist movements in Europe see the independence of Kosovo as an important precedence to build upon and are now using it as a case to further their cause. In fact, the Scottisch parliament is supposed to have a vote on Scottisch independence fairly soon, as far as I remember.

That's why the Spanish government, among some other EU countries, won't recognise Kosovo's independence. Not because they don't like Kosovar Albanians, but it would immensely outrage the Catalan and even moreso the Basque separartists.

Drone is right. I highlighted the important sentence for you and hope that after like 1 million threads about this subject you finally got it.

Same goes with the case of FYROM.

In other words he chickened out. From when we sympathize towards cowards like him?

It's not about chickening out, but about manipulating, influencing and controlling the stupid masses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
It doesn't necessarily need to reflect what you stand for, just what the people want to hear.

I find it a bit ironic that my country is going to accept the independence of Kosovo. We had months of political crises, more and more people were calling for an independent Flanders but politics just continued its debate and the pathetic calling for a unified Belgium.

Anywho, I think nationalism is a great but dangerous concept. I'm a convinced seperatist and really like the recent developments in Serbia, I'm hoping that the Scots, Basques and any other etnic population wil raise their voices harder then before.

I also believe it is normal that anti-christianty and nationalism mix, I never knew anything better then important priest, bisshops calling for a stronger bonding between Flanders and wallonia to keep Belgium one country. The christian institute just wants to act like a peacemaker these days so people don't remember the crimes across history.

You bet we will. I'm actually not leaving the house without the flag in my hand these days. It's a critical time. Who'd have thought a bunch of Albanians could have done so much for the future of Europe?

What are they doing? I'm just wondering, as I don't know much about it. I mean yeah I know they are seeking independence, but beyond that...?

Haha, what kind of ethnic minority do you belong to? The misogynist Oldenburgians?

Oldenburg was an independent nation for 738 years.

Actually I said the exact opposite

I know, but I'm only pointing out my point of view because, well, I really don't know any better (if we don't count in history off course).

Ah, ok my friend. I believe that it just has to do with Belgium. In Greece, it's the exact opposite

In other words to be a poser hypocrite.

Yeah, a good possibility

Wasn't it a part of Denmark for like hundred years?


Now you got it.

Being a part of Denmark is pretty much the same thing as being independent. (If you've ever been to Denmark you'll know what I mean)

Certainly better than being lumped into one pile with waste bins of human garbage like Bavaria, Saxonia, the Ruhrpott or any similar crap like that.

Freetown Christiania FTW!!!

Neat idea actually. But what the fuck is it with that name? Sounds like intense Jesus-love to me.

(which ironically almost brings us back to the original topic... derailment collapsing in on itself, haha)

As a proud citizen of "Bergisches Land" I tend to agree

I still do not know what the fuck happened with the name. But still Christiania is free of churches