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godofgomorrah
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Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:07 pm
Posts: 55
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:05 pm 
 

are there any theistic or laveyan satanists here?

for those who do not know what these mean:

Theistic Satanism - we believe satan and his demons are actual beings and forces within this universe. they are the true gods of our planet and yehovah and allah are evil, corrupted tyrants. we use a lot of magick and spirituality as well as meditation to further ourselves in this life. the aim of this satanism is to become a god yourself and to achieve enlightenement. we do not grovel and beg forgiveness to satan as other religions do but we ask him for guidance and assistance in our mission.

LaVeyan Satanism - these people do not believe in satan as an actual deity but see him more as a symbol, a symbol that stands for being your own god and ruling your life according to yourself and not worshipping any other entity.

discuss..

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megalowho
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Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:33 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:20 pm 
 

I haven't devoted much thought to Satanism, but my general impression, which I think is in agreement with the consensus here, is...

godofgomorrah wrote:
Theistic Satanism


...accepts the existence of deities and magic, and is therefore silly;

Quote:
LaVeyan Satanism


...is not so silly, but is unoriginal; existentialism or individualism might be more appropriate (and less embarrassing) terms for these beliefs.

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godofgomorrah
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:24 pm 
 

the laveyan church of satan is a very misled and troubled organisation.

while i would normally call the existence of magick silly you cannot know until you have tried and this satanic kind of magick is very different to the 'magic' of houdini or david blaine


www.joyofsatan.com a very informative site, however the owner has neo-nazi sympathies which is wrong in my opinion and they have some silly theories about aliens. but the the parts about magick and meditation are very detailed.

www.theisticsatanism.com also very good, more general can relate to many different kinds of theistic satanists.

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The_Count
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:47 pm 
 

Religion is religion, this is the same ol bullshit just with another twist. "Satanist" are just annoying due to most of them being attention seeking morons.
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megalowho
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:52 pm 
 

I wasn't restricting the term "magic" to the illusions of popular performers. I also had in mind, to put it somewhat roughly, the belief in the human ability to alter the course of the natural world through chants, thoughts, rituals, etc. It's been said that the proper confirmation of such a belief would be nothing less than a scientific revolution.

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Chaos_Llama
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Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:04 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:07 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
Religion is religion, this is the same ol bullshit just with another twist. "Satanist" are just annoying due to most of them being attention seeking morons.


This. It's just more bullshit.

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:10 pm 
 

Theistic Satanism is essentially Christianity. Orthodox "black" metal is in fact Christian unblack shit.
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DanFuckingLucas
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:30 am
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:46 pm 
 

So, has casting this "magick" ever worked for anybody you've ever met?
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NeglectedField
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:33 pm 
 

Theistic Satanism is for dumb, pretentious, attention-seeking shits.

LaVeyan Satanism's angle as megalowho mentioned was already represented by other philosophies. Again it sounds like something for people who just like the label Satanist.

I can't think of anyone who self-described themselves as either kind of Satanist was particularly knowledgeable in the ways of science, and so on, similar to how you get a lot of people calling themselves ubermensch who have a dualistic, tinfoil-hatted perception of the world.
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ScaryMonsters
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:44 pm 
 

satanism is as a whole silly but it is indeed interesting to study. Particularly the more intellectual rungs of luciferianism or ancient demonisms. Again though, I speak of study.

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Forrizzledog
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:07 pm 
 

The OP's definition of Theistic satanism is very much like the way a lot of people define Christianiy sans magic.

LaVeyan Satanism is the religious version of PETA. It's nothing but publicity for celebrities.
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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:11 am 
 

Theistic Satanism is just as retarded as Christianity. LaVeyan Satanism is unnecessary.
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norilor
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:27 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:39 am 
 

What about Chaos-Gnosticism or Anti-Cosmic Satanism? What are your thoughts on this?

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:49 am 
 

norilor wrote:
What about Chaos-Gnosticism or Anti-Cosmic Satanism? What are your thoughts on this?

I'd need some elaboration on what those are before having an opinion.
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So, Manes > Samael?
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yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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Osmium
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:50 am 
 

norilor wrote:
What about Chaos-Gnosticism or Anti-Cosmic Satanism? What are your thoughts on this?


I prefer the Chaotic Neutral Battle Elfism.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:51 am 
 

Osmium wrote:
norilor wrote:
What about Chaos-Gnosticism or Anti-Cosmic Satanism? What are your thoughts on this?


I prefer the Chaotic Neutral Battle Elfism.

Sounds like D&D or something.
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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Shadoeking
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:56 am 
 

I've read the Satanic Bible by LaVey. It's interesting, some decent stuff in there, but on a whole, it's just not that worthwhile. As others have said, Theistic Satanism is just plain silly.

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MasticateTheNecro
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:18 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
norilor wrote:
What about Chaos-Gnosticism or Anti-Cosmic Satanism? What are your thoughts on this?

I'd need some elaboration on what those are before having an opinion.

I'm not sure what this is exactly, but the bits of info I have gathered seem like they make sense. I believe the guy in IC Rex "believes in" or whatever you'd say, the former. You can read about it in the interviews on IC Rex's website it will make alot more sense than me trying to explain it. Especially in the Ulvhel interview.
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Wrath_Of_War
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:58 pm 
 

I've been looking at the "Cathedral of the Black Goat" recently, just out of curiousity. Has anyone else heard of this or know anything of this?

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Dark_Gnat
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:03 pm 
 

Worshipping Satan as an entity is rater silly to me.

It's like someone who hates republicans, and simply votes democratic simply because it's the opposite "them".

LeVeyan satanism is sort of a self paradox. I would think it would be easier to simply be atheist or agnostic.

I know a lot of people hate Christians/Christianity because of the crusades, or what have you. I don't understand the logic in that. No one is alive who went through it back then. Granted, I disagree with the Crusades, as many of the Crusaders were simply using religion for their own selfish goals, and thus broke many of the Christian commandments themselves.

The core ideals of Christianity are good ones to have (don't kill, don't steal, be nice to each other, etc). The problem is that ruling authorities get in the way, and adopt whatever convenient religion they can to appeal to the masses. Effectively saying "I'm on your side, after all I'm Christian" while stabbing you in the back. Rome did it, England did it, and America does it. Nothing changes; atrocities continue.

That said, I feel that the freedom of religion is a very important one, and atheists, Satanists, Christians, etc are all better off with that freedom than having a government force a particular belief system upon them, no matter what it is.
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godofgomorrah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:04 pm 
 

first of all, to anyone who thinks theistic satanists are just reverse - christians, or just like christians or people who vote democrat because they dont like republics. theistic satanists believe that satan is the original god and satanism is in no way a retaliation to christianity. if that were so we would believe in satan the way the bible represents him; an evil spirit tempting men away from god and bringing them to hell. we do not believe in a hell in this way and also do not agree with this interpretation of him. if anyone here is familiar with the Yazidi people of iraq.. they believe in an archangel called melek-taus... this could be seen as another form of satan and this is more closely related to our perception of him. we are again in no way a retaliation to christianity.. for people who feel the need to join a religion to gain attention or to make a political statement there is alwasy atheism and our religion should not be taken lightly.

also as some of you say, yes this magick has been working for me and others. it is not that we have magical powers or supernatural energies.. we do believe that everything we see or use has a scientific explanation but we just havent found it yet. if you take an indian from the rainforest and put his fingers in an electric socket he will probably report that there are dark forces within the wall.. but to us it is obvious that he has been shocked by the electric current. in this same way magick is a force that we use but do not understand or know its full properties. a very easy test is to lie down.. channel energy from one side of your body.. say an arm and then to the other arm. you should be able to feel a slight change in pressures in these areas. magick is simply being able to channel this energy out of your body and use it for a purpose, you will not see rays of light and you will not see the magic but you can sense the energy. recently i went to see a hypnotist with some friends.. he asked everyone to come on stage and placed us into a trance, he could manipulate us easily and make us feel things.. i was still conscious which is he why he made me and some others leave the stage until there were only about 5 people left. these 5 were in deep trances. one of them a friend of mine was made to push a block of wood from a table using his mind. he sat about 10 metres away and to the audiences surprise the block flew about 2 metres through the air, nothing could have tampered with it. this is just a simple example of your power.. did you know humans only use about 15% of all the energy contained within their body.

i know many people who have evoked demons and seen their physical manifestations and seen father satan himself.. i have not but i have evoked a demon and he apeared to me through smoke.

you also say we are silly for believing in a deity but you must understand we do not grovel and worship at the feet of satan. he is a guide to us and wishes for us to open our souls and achieve the status of god which is achievable to any human if you put your mind to it. we do not beg his mercy and we do not place our faith blindly.. as almost all satanists would agree he helps bring about positive changes in your life whether he tells you or not, many of my friends have remarked that i have become different lately and some of them do not yet know of my path.

we do not blindly follow our god and allow to him to waste our lives in his service. he offers us help and guidance and in return we will perform small services for him... this could be as simple as converting some more people away from christianity. but we do not impose ourselves upon others.. if they come they will come. we will not send missionaries to foreign countries to convert people and we will not slaughter people who do not agree with our path. we are peaceful but we still believe in revenge, death and destruction rituals are applicable but you must have enough hatred towards the person in order for it to work.. without hatred there is not enough cause and not enough energy can be used up. once i was an atheist like most of you, i detested the thought of a god and was unwilling to believe in something without proof. i would openly confess my anti-religious stance and often be ivolved in heated arguments but i have changed. i know that i may now sound like a crazy preacher but this is not my meaning. i am not trying to convert you i am only trying to explain my belief so you are ridden of misconceptions and bias you might have.

and that remark about satanists being uneducated or whatever in science etc.. is completely ridiculous. you cannot base such a claim on meeting maybe one satanist. as within all religions there are varying degrees of intelligence and my IQ is 133, but then again you cannot base such a claim on only my IQ so just ignore it.

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Osmium
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Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:09 pm 
 

I can't deny your anecdotal experiences, but they certainly have not convinced me of anything. I do take issue with the following statement though.

Quote:
for people who feel the need to join a religion to gain attention or to make a political statement there is alwasy atheism and our religion should not be taken lightly.


1. You imply that atheism is a religion. It is not.
2. You imply that people are atheists because they seek attention or wish to make political statements. This is not true. Atheism is the default null hypothesis. It is a position that seeks evidential justification on the basis of theists in order to take them seriously. It is well-supported philosophically and scientifically.

If there is some philosophical realm within which to argue for the existence of satan or demons, I welcome you to try. Until then, yous is merely the equivalent of any other superstition (albeit a more healthy one in terms of relationship between deity and adherents) with little more than anecdotal backing.

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Dark_Gnat
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:10 pm 
 

godofgomarrah wrote:
we will not slaughter people who do not agree with our path. we are peaceful but we still believe in revenge, death and destruction rituals are applicable but you must have enough hatred towards the person in order for it to work.. without hatred there is not enough cause and not enough energy can be used up.


Hmm, I'm not sure if I get the logic here. I figure death is death. The only time it is justifiable for me is in self defense, or defense of loved ones.

I'm not instigating, just curious. :)
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ForNaught
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:26 pm 
 

godofgomorrah wrote:
recently i went to see a hypnotist with some friends.. he asked everyone to come on stage and placed us into a trance, he could manipulate us easily and make us feel things.. i was still conscious which is he why he made me and some others leave the stage until there were only about 5 people left. these 5 were in deep trances. one of them a friend of mine was made to push a block of wood from a table using his mind. he sat about 10 metres away and to the audiences surprise the block flew about 2 metres through the air, nothing could have tampered with it. this is just a simple example of your power.. did you know humans only use about 15% of all the energy contained within their body.


That sounds like simple illusion, very standard fare for any stage performer who dubs themself "magician"-- and others besides. The hypnotism aspect was simply used as a distraction of sorts, or a means of making the illusion more impressive. It is a common tactic to make a volunteer appear to perform magic, although it is more common with card tricks and mind tricks I believe. Rather credulous to take this as evidence of latent telekinetic abilities.

Your energy channeling exercise and "slight changes in pressure" sound like simple psychosomatic sensations, nothing to get excited over. I won't comment on the rest of your anecdotes without more insight into the circumstances but I remain highly skeptical regarding your claims.
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godofgomorrah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:54 pm 
 

of course you will be skeptical.. you have every right to be and i will not push you towards satan or away from him. you are where you are. everyone goes through phases and it is important for us to find a religion that suits you best.. however what i will say is that people who are born into a religious family and have never even experimented with religions are narrow minded and have no right to comment.

yes the death rituals have to be justified to some extent. while i am generally peaceful and have never seriously hurt someone i do have the potential and the willpower to do it if i believe they deserve it. your hate must be cold to prevent any guilt and also fiery in order to create the power needed to punish your victim. of course for a loved one is a beautiful cause to use such ugly magick and love is a healthy and powerful emotion.. but hate is a negative and diseased feeling that can cause depression and illness if kept to yourself and therefore these death rituals can be cathartic.

to osmium:
that is not how i meant it and i probably misworded somewhere. i take note. all i say is that if you wish to make a statement against christianity or the mainstream religions, joining a smaller and often considered 'evil' religion is not the way to do it, if this is your reason then you are misguided and obviously agree with the christian misconceptions of our belief.. you think that because we deny yehova and openly blaspheme we are the enemy of all christians and they fear our evil powers.. this is not the truth. atheism is not a relgion but again if you have to make a statement it is a better path than choosing another theistic religion.

also a lot of you have missed the point
SELF IS FIRST
SATAN IS SECOND

satan wanted humans to be gods in their own right as you can tell by these 'myths'of adam and eve which have been contorted for the christian propoganda. therefore in order to really serve satan we must empower ourselves and become gods.. this is the goal of our life and all our incarnations.. whether you do this via satanism or buddhism.

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godofgomorrah
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Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:07 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:56 pm 
 

ForNaught wrote:
godofgomorrah wrote:
recently i went to see a hypnotist with some friends.. he asked everyone to come on stage and placed us into a trance, he could manipulate us easily and make us feel things.. i was still conscious which is he why he made me and some others leave the stage until there were only about 5 people left. these 5 were in deep trances. one of them a friend of mine was made to push a block of wood from a table using his mind. he sat about 10 metres away and to the audiences surprise the block flew about 2 metres through the air, nothing could have tampered with it. this is just a simple example of your power.. did you know humans only use about 15% of all the energy contained within their body.


That sounds like simple illusion, very standard fare for any stage performer who dubs themself "magician"-- and others besides. The hypnotism aspect was simply used as a distraction of sorts, or a means of making the illusion more impressive. It is a common tactic to make a volunteer appear to perform magic, although it is more common with card tricks and mind tricks I believe. Rather credulous to take this as evidence of latent telekinetic abilities.

Your energy channeling exercise and "slight changes in pressure" sound like simple psychosomatic sensations, nothing to get excited over. I won't comment on the rest of your anecdotes without more insight into the circumstances but I remain highly skeptical regarding your claims.


yes you are right and this is not the best example.. but it was a small club with only about 100 people and trust me.. we were all on stage, but yes not a good example.

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DeathFog
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:09 pm 
 

In both cases satan is something to believe in, even if used as a symbol. If one acknowledges the existence of satan, one automatically acknowledges the existence of god, further conforming with the biblical system. The whole idea of satan dates back to Judaism and it was developed by Christianity. This means that the usage of this term or belief in it will inevitably "send" you to the christian system of beliefs.

I do not believe in any deity or any force. I just believe in myself.

" Believe on thyself and thou shalt be saved, for thou art thine own final judge. "
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godofgomorrah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:22 pm 
 

yes we aknowledge the existence of god.. that doesnt mean he is an all powerful god that we should worship.

and becoming a satanist does not mean you are conforming with the bible. the bible is not our holy book and is not a true description of the history of the world. christians have been corrupting ancient legends of pagan and occult religions to form this book of lies.. the bible. they then use it to brainwash half the world into completely surrendering themselves to god and allowing your inner power to go unnoticed and neglected causing you to rot away spiritually. satan predates both judaism and christianity.. satan is not a christian invention, satan is not evil. satanists have been practising for a lot longer, this may sound silly but in a deeper way all the pagans and egyptians were satanists in some ways.. the yazidi as i have mentioned before are an ancient tribe. the knights templar who worshipped baphomet during the crusades.

satan is not a christian invention. we see satan as a beautiful man with golden hair and a fair nature, very intelligent and physically strong, not a tempter and not as the so called 'devil'. there is no sense in worshipping a deity that is evil just for the sake of opposing the others.

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godofgomorrah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:26 pm 
 

we do not throw ourselves at the feet of our master and kiss hes toes. i am a god like him and all humans can be, this is the essence of satanism.. not the worship another person but to achieve godhead for yourself while recognising the deity. think of the buddhists.. we also meditate, open our chakras, empower the soul, but unlike them we do not believe in the three fold law and are willing to use our power for negative things if needed. we use powerful magick and become more and more powerful.

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godofgomorrah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:32 pm 
 

well i am about to go to sleep but before i go i just want to say:

i did not make this discussion to preach to you, i created it to have an intelligent discussion and so far have been satisfied with the thoughts that have been added, i thank you. secondly i wish for you to keep challening my beliefs because it is important to be open minded and hear different views.. it is important to be open to anything and not create limits for yourself. thank you.

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DeathFog
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:01 pm 
 

So you say that Satan preceded Judaism and Christianity. Provide the proof. I really can't understand how an invention can precede the inventing system. Of course you may make references to Zoroastrianism and older religions, but as far as I know in its current form it appeared only in Judaism and Christianity.
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Foxx
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:14 pm 
 

godofgomorrah wrote:
yes we aknowledge the existence of god.. that doesnt mean he is an all powerful god that we should worship.

and becoming a satanist does not mean you are conforming with the bible. the bible is not our holy book and is not a true description of the history of the world. christians have been corrupting ancient legends of pagan and occult religions to form this book of lies.. the bible. they then use it to brainwash half the world into completely surrendering themselves to god and allowing your inner power to go unnoticed and neglected causing you to rot away spiritually. satan predates both judaism and christianity.. satan is not a christian invention, satan is not evil. satanists have been practising for a lot longer, this may sound silly but in a deeper way all the pagans and egyptians were satanists in some ways.. the yazidi as i have mentioned before are an ancient tribe. the knights templar who worshipped baphomet during the crusades.

satan is not a christian invention. we see satan as a beautiful man with golden hair and a fair nature, very intelligent and physically strong, not a tempter and not as the so called 'devil'. there is no sense in worshipping a deity that is evil just for the sake of opposing the others.


Isn't "Satan" the Hebrew word for "adversary" though? I too find it difficult to believe that Satan as an entity (yeah I'm not using this word right because he's an imaginary person, but whatever) predates Judahism.

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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:03 pm 
 

Foxx wrote:
Isn't "Satan" the Hebrew word for "adversary" though? I too find it difficult to believe that Satan as an entity (yeah I'm not using this word right because he's an imaginary person, but whatever) predates Judahism.

Yes. Herein lies the main difficulty in taking seriously people who call themselves Satanists. Satan is a Hebrew word which was never meant to refer to one specific being. Look into the work of Carlo Suares (specifically, the introduction to The Passion of Judas) for an informative interpretation of the word. In the book of Job, YHWH sends "a satan" to test the faith of the titular character. The word does roughly mean adversary, so we see that "a satan" is actually an emissary of sorts who creates a trial for the faithful to overcome. It was only in later, Christian writings that an excuse for evil was required, and thus did Satan become capitalized.

I've read a decent amount of "Satanic" literature by various authors (Michael Ford, E. A. Koetting, etc.) and they uniformly reference traditions which predate Christian thought. The word "Satan" has become far too generic and, when the actual meaning of the word is considered, is not at all flattering to the serious student of the black arts. It implies the yoke of Christian dogma and a puerile reaction against it. If indeed you worship Melek Taus, Lucifer, Ahriman or any reservoir of God's darker attributes with pedigree, you should refrain from categorizing yourself as a Satanist.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:32 pm 
 

Whatever the case, if you believe in a supernatural being with no evidence (anecdotal evidences don't count!!), you're (almost) equally dumb as Christians.

On the subject of Satan "predating" Judeo-Christianity, I think it is true as long as it is accepted that Satan was not called Satan before Judeo-Christianity. He might be referring to some ancient deity that has been demonized by Judeo-Christianity.
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Foxx
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:50 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
On the subject of Satan "predating" Judeo-Christianity, I think it is true as long as it is accepted that Satan was not called Satan before Judeo-Christianity. He might be referring to some ancient deity that has been demonized by Judeo-Christianity.


But here we have to consider that in Judaism, there is no not-so-equal and opposite god (ie. Satan). Yahweh was the cause of good and evil. It is far more plausible that in Christianity the word 'satan' was just taken out of context.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:58 pm 
 

Foxx wrote:
Kruel wrote:
On the subject of Satan "predating" Judeo-Christianity, I think it is true as long as it is accepted that Satan was not called Satan before Judeo-Christianity. He might be referring to some ancient deity that has been demonized by Judeo-Christianity.


But here we have to consider that in Judaism, there is no not-so-equal and opposite god (ie. Satan). Yahweh was the cause of good and evil. It is far more plausible that in Christianity the word 'satan' was just taken out of context.


I'm not sure I understood you, but are you saying that the word "Satan" was taken out of context and used by these "Satanists?" If so, I agree, at least based on the OP's definition of Satanism.
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Foxx
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:08 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
Foxx wrote:
Kruel wrote:
On the subject of Satan "predating" Judeo-Christianity, I think it is true as long as it is accepted that Satan was not called Satan before Judeo-Christianity. He might be referring to some ancient deity that has been demonized by Judeo-Christianity.


But here we have to consider that in Judaism, there is no not-so-equal and opposite god (ie. Satan). Yahweh was the cause of good and evil. It is far more plausible that in Christianity the word 'satan' was just taken out of context.


I'm not sure I understood you, but are you saying that the word "Satan" was taken out of context and used by these "Satanists?" If so, I agree, at least based on the OP's definition of Satanism.


Nah, I just meant that Christianity probably just invented themselves a new being ("Satan", though he's still subject to God's wishes just as the various other instances of satan were in the Old Testament) which was not present in Judaism so that God could be painted as all-good and all-loving, though I suppose my wording left room for confusion.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:16 pm 
 

Ah, thanks. That makes sense as well.
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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:23 pm 
 

Foxx wrote:
Nah, I just meant that Christianity probably just invented themselves a new being ("Satan", though he's still subject to God's wishes just as the various other instances of satan were in the Old Testament) which was not present in Judaism so that God could be painted as all-good and all-loving, though I suppose my wording left room for confusion.

This is more or less what happened. When you examine older religions, the concept of balance is almost universal. Christianity, in general, is an extremely unbalanced religion in that it suggests the complete annihilation of moral evil is a desirable end. Also, it did not initially provide a source of this moral evil. Since the God of the New Testament is supposedly the essence of absolute moral good, people could not reconcile the existence of evil in the creation of an entirely good being. The use of Satan as this source of evil was either an honest mistake by someone who missed the point or a deliberate invention to provide a scapegoat for a fake deity.

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Osmium
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:49 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:
This is more or less what happened. When you examine older religions, the concept of balance is almost universal. Christianity, in general, is an extremely unbalanced religion in that it suggests the complete annihilation of moral evil is a desirable end. Also, it did not initially provide a source of this moral evil. Since the God of the New Testament is supposedly the essence of absolute moral good, people could not reconcile the existence of evil in the creation of an entirely good being. The use of Satan as this source of evil was either an honest mistake by someone who missed the point or a deliberate invention to provide a scapegoat for a fake deity.


A form of it is still utilized in philosophical circles, if you are familiar with Plantinga. He defends theism from the problem of evil by stipulating a possible world in which all evil--including natural evil--is a result of agents who possess free will. Natural evil is caused by free evil spirits and/or Satan, and since god is unwilling to infringe on anyone else's free will, he allows these evil agents to harass humanity as much as is possible. The important note here is that he manages to demonstrate that god and evil are not mutually contradictory concepts. It is the equivalent of a skeptical argument, essentially, which can be used against any empirical argument, though it leaves one in a rather intellectually feeble position.

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